Politics 2017 part 4

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

In my case, because I personally knew one working there, otherwise you're right, you don't actually 'know' they've destroyed it, but if you want to go down the rabbit hole that far you will soon be institutionalized anyway

Can any Swedish citizen formally request the government to destroy their DNA sample, or did you just get hooked up by a buddy?

 

Isn't that bit old news, because now its been at least for 11 years that order to get passport one needs to give clear picture of your face and fingerprints to government who will share them with other governments.

Interesting. I don't remember providing my fingerprints for my passport, but its been a while so maybe I did?

 

No fingerprints, just a picture.

 

 

 

 

Isn't that bit old news, because now its been at least for 11 years that order to get passport one needs to give clear picture of your face and fingerprints to government who will share them with other governments.

Interesting. I don't remember providing my fingerprints for my passport, but its been a while so maybe I did?

 

 

It seems that USA only demands such thing from foreign passports and even though US Passports also now have biometric chip where such data could be saved and read from distance it isn't used.

 

Clearly we need to take visa free travelling from people travelling with US Passports as they clearly have insecure passports 

 

I don't think we demand anything from foreign passports except that they identify the person and not be fake.

 

 

So, I'm sitting here at my kitchen counter drinking a cup of coffee and reading USA Today on my iPad. And a thought hit me like a bolt of lightning. And not for the first time. Donald Trump is the President of the United States? How the F--K did this happen???

 

Still better than Hillary Clinton though.

That's how.

 

 

There is a massive amount of wiggle room between 'making people dependent on the government' and 'improving social inequalities'. We live in a time of rather obscene wealth division.

Yes, so may be you should stop supporting importing vast amounts of cheap labor.

[Guard Dog]

Ben I'm going to take your point off on a tangent here if you'll indulge me. You (and many others) express a lot of concern over the lack of equality. I am more concerned about a loss of freedom. To quote the great Milton Friedman "A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both."

 

Let me tell you a story. About five years ago I had an idea for a business along with another engineer I worked with. We formulated a business plan and recruited four investors. We all agreed on a one sixth split of the start up costs. It was a lot of money. Far more cash than I had lying around. So I mortgaged my house and committed most of my life savings to the venture. I went "all in". Our first contract was designing and installing wi-fi networks at colleges in Mexico. We were the low bid because my original partner and I agreed to pay our own travel costs. After eight hard months and many sleepless nights we completed our contact ahead of schedule and under budget. More work, bigger jobs followed. After four years we had 12 employees and 14 contractors. That was when we decided to sell the business. The six original investors made a lot of money on it. The venture was thriving at that point. The employees all received six months pay as a bonus/severance.

 

My question to you is do you think the employees were treated fairly. After all they were a big part of our success. Should the split have been 12 ways? No. It should not have been. If the business failed they would have lost their jobs true. But my partners and I would have lost our seed capital and every dollar invested after. For me that would have meant losing my home and my entire life savings. The employees were not working around the clock trying to the the work of a 5 man staff with just two. We were. While they slept in their homes I was killing rats with a hammer while running CAT6 cable through the attic at the Universidad de Sonora in Hermosillo.  Disproportionate risk, disproportionate work leads to disproportionate rewards.

 

You see where I'm coming from here? If there was no reward for creating that venture we would not have bothered to do it and for the years we worked those 12 jobs would not have existed at all.

[Gfted1]

Are you fully retired now, GD?

 

EDIT: Derp, I see from another post that you are not retired.

[Hurlshort]

Again, there is a tremendous amount of wiggle room here. Very few people are going to dispute that a person that risks everything to start a new business doesn't deserve the fruits of such a labor. But that is really not what we are talking about when we discuss the terrible inequality of wealth in the country. That .1 percent of the country that controls 90% of the wealth is an issue. It isn't trickling down, instead it has been escalating at the top and slowing in the middle.

[Guard Dog]

Are you fully retired now, GD?

No I work for the Tennessee Dept of Environment & Conservation now. I have been for two years now. Don't ask me how I backed into this job because nothing in my education or professional life even remotely qualified me for it. I sent in a resume for the heck of it, got interviewed twice and here I am. But I must admit I do enjoy it immensely. I used the proceeds of the sale of our business to pay off my house, buy my truck, buy my investment property (the townhouse) and a few other investments.

[Hurlshort]

Also, before you think I'm lobbying for more government taxes on the rich, that couldn't be farther form the truth. My problem is the government is basically serving corporate interests most of the time. Corporations don't invest tremendous amounts of money into lobbying for no good reason. They do it because it allows them to maintain the upper hand on the American workers.

[Guard Dog]

Again, there is a tremendous amount of wiggle room here. Very few people are going to dispute that a person that risks everything to start a new business doesn't deserve the fruits of such a labor. But that is really not what we are talking about when we discuss the terrible inequality of wealth in the country. That .1 percent of the country that controls 90% of the wealth is an issue. It isn't trickling down, instead it has been escalating at the top and slowing in the middle.

When someone has money they can do one of three things with it. Spend it. Invest it. Save it. The former two has benefits that stretch beyond the act. If they buy a new swimming pool it means money for pool company who pay the wages of the pool guy, etc. If they invest it in Nabisco (example) Nabisco uses it to make a new strawberry flavored graham cracker that the hire people to bake, deliver, and sell and that I buy and spread lots of peanut butter on. If they save it no one benefits really. Not even them because that is the lowest return on it. For the past 10 years or more we have lived in an economy where investment is riskier and the penalties for success are higher. And failure even higher still. It's a saver's economy which means fewer dollars circulate. Add to that the value hits the dollar has taken do to foolhardy economic ideas from Bush & Obama and the general lack of confidence in things and you have an economy that might be growing but is not conducive to "trickle down" working as it should.

 

Oh I get what you are saying. And yes corporations do spend a hell of a lot lobbying the government to do for them. That is both good and bad and neither good or bad. It just is. It's not new. The biggest thing we an do to fix our economy is to understand what it is and stop trying to manage it. Or regulate the absolute hell out of it and stop pretending it's free. A free market will experience swings. Booms and recessions That cannot and should not be "managed". Just endured. The cycle will always auto correct. A managed economy won't have these swings but it won't be robust. For twenty years now we have been trying to have it both ways. That does not work.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Guard Dog

[Gfted1]

What the hell is "unconditional basic income"?

[Gfted1]

For what? Mere accident of birth?

 

I would like to sign myself and entire family up for this program of free money.

[Gfted1]

Yes. Unconditional means unconditional

Kooky.

 

They are testing it in Finnland right now.

Huh, does everyone just quit their jobs then? I know I would!

 

As a side effect, I bet their population will start BOOMING once they realize they can just pump out dependents for free l00t.

[Azdeus]

Free money from the government every month, funded by taxes

I'm more interested in 6 hour days, myself.

[Guard Dog]

You know I would not be opposed to a universal income under a certain condition. Suppose the US decided they are going to pay every American over the age of 18 the equivalent of a full time worker at minimum wage. That would be around $15k per year, $1200 a month give or take. And the US agreed to provide single payer health coverage on all single expenses over say $15k. In other words, need a kidney transplant we'll cover you. Needs stitches? Get out your credit card. And that is it. That is the only two benefits you get from Uncle Sam. No social security, no government guaranteed loans, no food stamps, nothing. What you earn over that you'll be taxed on at the usual rate.

 

Would that be acceptable? Do you guys realize that would be less than we are paying per citizen for all the boondoggles mess we have now? Reason Magazine did a piece on that last year. I'll see if I can find it

[Hurlshort]

Yeah, Dan Carlin, who is a pretty hardcore libertarian, did an episode similar to this recently.

[Gfted1]

I'm more interested in 6 hour days, myself.

Why would you choose to work at all? Give this guy a free life and I'm going to sit on a beach and fish.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Corporate lobbying is mostly about taxes and regulations, not oppressing the worker, except for the part about importing the aforementioned cheap foreign labor.

[Hurlshort]

Corporate lobbying is mostly about taxes and regulations, not oppressing the worker, except for the part about importing the aforementioned cheap foreign labor.

 

You keep bringing red herring up. You are very committed, at least.

[Gfted1]

Exactly what they are testing. They gave it to 2000 unemployed people. Now they see how they react

Hmm, Ima go out on a limb here and predict these people will continue to be unemployed.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Corporate lobbying is mostly about taxes and regulations, not oppressing the worker, except for the part about importing the aforementioned cheap foreign labor.

Don't fight your fellow worker, who is willing to work for less than minimum wage to sustain his family. fight the conditions that force the two of you to compete

 

To avoid the conditions that force us to compete they need stay in their own country, unless we invite them in.

 

Well, the filibuster is dead for Supreme Court confirmations. They should get rid of it entirely. It made some sense when the two parties would occasionally come together for the national good, but now that they're always at each other's throats it just contributes to paralysis. To avoid the filibuster they have to pass everything under budget reconciliation rules, which only leads to badly designed, half-baked legislation like Obamacare.

[Wrath of Dagon]

@Ben You never fail to amuse and dismay.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[Elerond]

  

 

 

Isn't that bit old news, because now its been at least for 11 years that order to get passport one needs to give clear picture of your face and fingerprints to government who will share them with other governments.

Interesting. I don't remember providing my fingerprints for my passport, but its been a while so maybe I did?

 

 

It seems that USA only demands such thing from foreign passports and even though US Passports also now have biometric chip where such data could be saved and read from distance it isn't used.

 

Clearly we need to take visa free travelling from people travelling with US Passports as they clearly have insecure passports 

 

I don't think we demand anything from foreign passports except that they identify the person and not be fake.

 

 

As for foreigners travelling to the U.S., if they wish to enter U.S. visa-free under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP), they are now required to possess machine-readable passports that comply with international standards. Additionally, for travellers holding a valid passport issued on or after 26 October 2006, such a passport must be a biometric passport if used to enter the U.S. visa-free under the VWP.

 

Finland and other EU countries adopted biometric passport because USA required it for visa free travelling, I thought that it was two way street where US passports have same information, but it seems that they don't.

[HoonDing]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/04/06/steve-bannon-calls-jared-kushner-a-cuck-and-globalist-behind-his-back.html

 

He may look like a toad, but still tells it like it is.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Trump needs to remember who brought him to the dance. Ivanka especially is way too liberal.

[Guard Dog]

 

You know I would not be opposed to a universal income under a certain condition. Suppose the US decided they are going to pay every American over the age of 18 the equivalent of a full time worker at minimum wage. That would be around $15k per year, $1200 a month give or take. And the US agreed to provide single payer health coverage on all single expenses over say $15k. In other words, need a kidney transplant we'll cover you. Needs stitches? Get out your credit card. And that is it. That is the only two benefits you get from Uncle Sam. No social security, no government guaranteed loans, no food stamps, nothing. What you earn over that you'll be taxed on at the usual rate.

 

Would that be acceptable? Do you guys realize that would be less than we are paying per citizen for all the boondoggles mess we have now? Reason Magazine did a piece on that last year. I'll see if I can find it

It appears this forum can come up with some sort of common ground. I have an idea... we all together try outline how "our" state would look like. The thread would be a bloody mess, but I'd be interested to see water we can come up with something

 

Well, you lost me altogether when you mentioned nationalizing big businesses and banks. You do realize a business or a bank belongs to someone right? Often many someones. By nationalizing it you are taking it away from whomever owns it at gunpoint. It would be no different if armed police kicked in your door and said "this is our house now. Get out". If you nationalized GM for example what do you think would happen to all the folks whose retirement funds were heavily invested in GM? Citizens of a free country should not live in fear the government will take their property away from them.

 

Which of course brings up other topics like Civil Asset Forfeiture, Imminent Domain, etc. You all know how I feel about that already.

[Meshugger]

 

Yes. Unconditional means unconditional

Kooky.

 

They are testing it in Finnland right now.

Huh, does everyone just quit their jobs then? I know I would!

 

As a side effect, I bet their population will start BOOMING once they realize they can just pump out dependents for free l00t.

 

 

So far it hasn't produced any meaningful results compared to regular social services. But it's still early.

 

I support it in principle, but it has to be adjusted annually like a negative income tax compared to the median income in order to avoid the same problem as the cycle of welfare causes.

[Elerond]

 

Yes. Unconditional means unconditional

Kooky.

 

They are testing it in Finnland right now.

Huh, does everyone just quit their jobs then? I know I would!

 

As a side effect, I bet their population will start BOOMING once they realize they can just pump out dependents for free l00t.

 

 

Our current unemployment benefits are bigger that proposed basic income, so for unemployed people it just means less income, but for people in with jobs it increases income, especially for those who do temp jobs.