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What would you like to see change for Paladins in Deadfire v PoE1 (or any other class)?


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Specifically, I'm wondering if any changes are planned for Paladins in Deadfire, particularly in their fundamental class attributes more so than minor stuff.

 

I acknowledge that these aren't D&D style Paladins and that many improvements were made with later patches. However I still feel that they were secondary almost in every way to other classes such as priests & fighters when built right, in the areas which are meant to be their strengths.

Yes, again I acknowledge and appreciate the buffs given in patches, particularly to their auras and abilities, and that they are meant to be all-rounders in many ways, however the vast majority of people aren't playing through with one character (like PoTD), and even a party of five have enough skills to not require what may be considered a mediocre roll in such a line up.

 

My main question is, any ways in which the Paladin may be slightly tweaked to make it more distinct or interesting in its own right? Perhaps for eg more effective spike damage to particular enemies? Unique minor spells?

 

 

Does anyone else feel this way for Palys or that any other class needs a minor tweak or overhaul?

Edited by PneumaticFire

"If you would, you could become all flame" - Abba Joseph of the Desert Fathers.

 

 

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More tanks abilities for better control of battlefield, so it would be less of a chance/random proc of AI to rush towards casters ignoring everything. Like make tanks to actually somehow DENY moving pass them - like any enemy which ran near tank in special "deny stance" is automatically stunned and pushed back away.

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Sorry for my bag English.  :dancing:

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Where paladins are concerned, I'd like to see more differentiation based on their orders. Bleak Walkers might specialize in bolstering offensive capabilities or weakening enemy defenses, Shieldbearers might take a portion of nearby allies' suffering upon themselves or improve allies' ability to protect each other via engagement, Goldpact Knights affinities would be more towards bolstering allies' defenses and increasing consistency (fewer grazes, etc.), Kind Wayfarers could focus more on healing or increasing mobility, and the Darcozzi could focus on intensifying or prolonging inspiration among their allies. This could also involve areas in which they are comparatively mediocre, such as Bleak Walkers being bad at healing/directly assisting allies in nondestructive ways or Shieldbearers having less skill in directly improving accuracy or damage through their auras.

 

Alternatively, a more simple way to approach this could be to have orders influence starting stats and skills to an extent. In either case, more order-specific abilities would be welcome.

 

Similar variation for priests would be fitting as well. We know that spells have associated descriptors now, and if there's enough variation in priest spells to prevent certain spell affinities and antipathies from being plainly better or worse than each other, then assigning strengths and weaknesses for various priesthoods based on spell types could be interesting. This is another class for which skill bonuses should vary with subclasses to an extent. All priesthoods will emphasize lore to an extent given their role in guiding/instructing the faithful, but beyond that, they would obviously have different concerns and values. Streetwise might make sense for a priest of Skaen, for example, while Athletics may better fit a priest of Magran, etc.

 

For monks, I'd like them to have access to scarification rites as an alternative to armor - reducing maximum health or imposing other permanent penalties as appropriate in exchange for increased innate DT and other benefits. Things like body paint and oils might be a more reversible alternative to that. I'd also be interested in some minor passive benefits from the accumulation of Wounds unrelated to the active use of monk abilities could also be interesting. More versatility for unarmed attacks seems worthwhile to me as well: perhaps giving them different stances/modals to select from to shift or expand the features of such attacks, or even allowing them to simply purchase equipment like spiked knuckles to allow for more variation in unarmed damage type.

 

Ganrich and others have had plenty of good ideas for chanters, as can be seen here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/91542-chanters-need-a-redesign/.

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Especially with multiclassing available, that could make Paladins potentially obsolete. Someone could subclass or choose vanilla cleric with some form of fighter. Or many other combos that take the good parts of a Paladin.

 

Apart from role playing purposes, what benefit would there be for a vanilla Paladin as they currently exist on POE? They're not even distinctly known for being a force for good (or bad - Blackguard), they're just... zealous.

Edited by PneumaticFire

"If you would, you could become all flame" - Abba Joseph of the Desert Fathers.

 

 

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Someone could subclass or choose vanilla cleric with some form of fighter. Or many other combos that take the good parts of a Paladin.

 

A priest/fighter multiclass wouldn't necessarily make paladins redundant so long as the latter continue to have abilities and features that are both uniquely theirs and competitive with alternatives such as priest spells. It also stands to reason that any single or multiclass builds that fill a similar role, however imperfectly, would necessarily be doing so at the expense of other options, in which case I don't really see the harm as long as they don't do the paladin's job better.

 

 

Apart from role playing purposes, what benefit would there be for a vanilla Paladin as they currently exist on POE? They're not even distinctly known for being a force for good (or bad - Blackguard), they're just... zealous.

 

Technically, there's no such thing as a vanilla paladin in PoE since they are all required to select an Order as their subclass. Assuming that you mean what's to keep people from having others stand in for a paladin or never bothering with a single classed paladin, that's something that would necessarily boil down to the abilities that the class gains and how well they scale based on power source.

Edited by blotter
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Rogues who can make repeated use of stealth / Shadowing Beyond per encounter, without using up all their per rest Empower points to be effective. Hopefully for at least two of the four subclass options (four counting the base class).

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Someone could subclass or choose vanilla cleric with some form of fighter. Or many other combos that take the good parts of a Paladin.

 

A priest/fighter multiclass wouldn't necessarily make paladins redundant so long as the latter continue to have abilities and features that are both uniquely theirs and competitive with alternatives such as priest spells. It also stands to reason that any single or multiclass builds that fill a similar role, however imperfectly, would necessarily be doing so at the expense of other options, in which case I don't really see the harm as long as they don't do the paladin's job better.

 

 

Apart from role playing purposes, what benefit would there be for a vanilla Paladin as they currently exist on POE? They're not even distinctly known for being a force for good (or bad - Blackguard), they're just... zealous.

 

Technically, there's no such thing as a vanilla paladin in PoE since they are all required to select an Order as their subclass. Assuming that you mean what's to keep people from having others stand in for a paladin or never bothering with a single classed paladin, that's something that would necessarily boil down to the abilities that the class gains and how well they scale based on power source.

Yes I agree, it comes down to their unique abilities and how they compare to other similar (role-wise) classes.

 

Obsidian, please take note! Please make Paladins unique traits affective and on par with the abilities of similar classes for this kind of role!

"If you would, you could become all flame" - Abba Joseph of the Desert Fathers.

 

 

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I'd like to see more class abilities that allow for a DPS paladin spec. I know that's not the primary focus of the class, but as a melee class I feel like it should be possible to set them up that way. At the very least they should have some anti-undead abilities a la DnD. More active combat abilities wouldn't hurt in general.

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Specifically, I'm wondering if any changes are planned for Paladins in Deadfire, particularly in their fundamental class attributes more so than minor stuff.

 

I acknowledge that these aren't D&D style Paladins and that many improvements were made with later patches. However I still feel that they were secondary almost in every way to other classes such as priests & fighters when built right, in the areas which are meant to be their strengths.

Yes, again I acknowledge and appreciate the buffs given in patches, particularly to their auras and abilities, and that they are meant to be all-rounders in many ways, however the vast majority of people aren't playing through with one character (like PoTD), and even a party of five have enough skills to not require what may be considered a mediocre roll in such a line up.

 

My main question is, any ways in which the Paladin may be slightly tweaked to make it more distinct or interesting in its own right? Perhaps for eg more effective spike damage to particular enemies? Unique minor spells?

 

 

Does anyone else feel this way for Palys or that any other class needs a minor tweak or overhaul?

Err, I think Paladins with the White March overhauls were very good characters in Pillars with a strong niche of their own in combat: the one of being incredibly durable while passively buffing the party with a useful AOE effect chosen by the player to compensate for party weaknesses or to enhance its strengths, having a large raft of helpful active abilities you could choose between to fill in holes left by your other party choices or to create redundancy, whether it was curing, buffing, debuffing, or, at high levels, dishing out AOE damage, all the while being able to deal quite nice damage on their own chopping up enemies. Outside of combat, due to their orders and impact of faith they, like priests, lent themselves well to roleplaying.

 

If you consider this to be a mediocre role compared to others that are more dedicated to specialization.... I'll just have to disagree with you. I consider Paladins in PoE to be just so darn useful throughout the game.

 

That's not an argument against given them even more tools that they can choose as alternatives to the ones already available, mind you, I just don't think they need them to be attractive. Some people prefer parties of specialists, some generalists, some a mix. So long as the people who prefer the latter two categories think paladins are good enough to warrant inclusion in a party, then, everything else being equal, they work well enough.

 

As for your "even a party of five have enough skills to not require" comment, I'd say that is good! With 11 classes to choose between, it would be terrible design if ANY classes were required. Not being required is the alpha and omega of what party choice is about.

 

 

Now, what I would love to see would be more differentiation between the orders where abilities are concerned so they aren't essentially the same with tiny modifications to a common set of abilities as is the case in Pillars 1. :yes:

Edited by pi2repsion
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When I said death before dishonour, I meant it alphabetically.

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Someone could subclass or choose vanilla cleric with some form of fighter. Or many other combos that take the good parts of a Paladin.

 

A priest/fighter multiclass wouldn't necessarily make paladins redundant so long as the latter continue to have abilities and features that are both uniquely theirs and competitive with alternatives such as priest spells. It also stands to reason that any single or multiclass builds that fill a similar role, however imperfectly, would necessarily be doing so at the expense of other options, in which case I don't really see the harm as long as they don't do the paladin's job better.

 

Recall also that the model for the Pillars paladin was less the fighter-with-some-cleric stuff of AD&D & 3E, and more the Warlord of D&D 4E. 

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Someone could subclass or choose vanilla cleric with some form of fighter. Or many other combos that take the good parts of a Paladin.

 

A priest/fighter multiclass wouldn't necessarily make paladins redundant so long as the latter continue to have abilities and features that are both uniquely theirs and competitive with alternatives such as priest spells. It also stands to reason that any single or multiclass builds that fill a similar role, however imperfectly, would necessarily be doing so at the expense of other options, in which case I don't really see the harm as long as they don't do the paladin's job better.

 

Recall also that the model for the Pillars paladin was less the fighter-with-some-cleric stuff of AD&D & 3E, and more the Warlord of D&D 4E. 

 

have been fighting a largely hopeless rearguard action with this issue. the name o' the classes defined expectations for the community.  obsidian developers eventual chose to accede to those expectations, but only after beta were almost finished.  so with the poe paladin, we got a resilient and low-maintenance support class with a few Holy Warrior flavor abilities awkward forced into the mix.  each major patch release were seeing an inelegant developer attempt to facilitate greater synergy 'tween the poe paladin class underappreciated support qualities, and its potential unbalancing offensive features rather than seeming be a categorical proposition for the player.

 

the poe paladin deserves a complete overhaul, but am thinking the possibility is unlikely.  developers will continue to fight bravely, but is not a battle meant to be won.  just 'cause fighters, paladins, and rogues had names same as the d&d classes from the ie games, those classes were never intended to play the same, or even similar.  battle were lost with seeming innocuous class naming nomenclature and all the current developers is able to do is minimize the damage.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Sorry, but I think paladins are far from useless and I want to play with a paladin as amin char and continue with him in PoE2.

 

- Rightous soul + aegis of loyalty + sacred immolation mekes the entire party immun to domination while healing your party and damaging the enemy

- A kind wayfarer with the right talents can passively heal the entire party by attacking and killing enemies

- They have good passive defensive bonusses, combined with buffs from other classes they are hard to hit

- They give a passive buff to themselves and nearby party members all the time

- They can actively heal or buff single party members

- Most of their abilities are per encounter, little need for resting

 

While there are classes with higher weapon damage (rogue) and more buffs and healing (priests), I think that paladins are far from useless.

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Specifically, I'm wondering if any changes are planned for Paladins in Deadfire, particularly in their fundamental class attributes more so than minor stuff.

 

I acknowledge that these aren't D&D style Paladins and that many improvements were made with later patches. However I still feel that they were secondary almost in every way to other classes such as priests & fighters when built right, in the areas which are meant to be their strengths.

Yes, again I acknowledge and appreciate the buffs given in patches, particularly to their auras and abilities, and that they are meant to be all-rounders in many ways, however the vast majority of people aren't playing through with one character (like PoTD), and even a party of five have enough skills to not require what may be considered a mediocre roll in such a line up.

 

My main question is, any ways in which the Paladin may be slightly tweaked to make it more distinct or interesting in its own right? Perhaps for eg more effective spike damage to particular enemies? Unique minor spells?

 

 

Does anyone else feel this way for Palys or that any other class needs a minor tweak or overhaul?

Nah. Pallas in PoE is already the best tanks (the only thing that redeemed fighters as tanks - is they +2 engage stance), practical dps (yeah you rogue maybe can score +9999 damage, but only if a random will let him to be unpunished by enemy's attacks, aoe/fear/stun etc.) and nice buffs. And with multiclassing in PoE 2, pallas probably would be able to pick up some of fighters tanking talent, or pick clerics class for even more buffs and support, thus making fighters and clerics slightly obsolete.

Sorry for my bag English.  :dancing:

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Give us an Undeadhunter subclass... that is all I want: bonuses against spirit vessel and immunity to hold/stun/paralysis from spirits/vessels (the undead kind - gul etc.)

 

Per encounter undead hosing skills/spells for Paladins would feel pretty good.  Something along the lines of the 6th lvl DnD spell "undead to death" foir example.  Or, if going a tanky route, maybe some sort of hard resistance to some of the annoying on-hit crap that seems to pervade undead encounters..

 

just a thought..

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by 3.0, paladins were more than capable o' fulfilling multiple roles

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85343-post-30-paladins/?p=1789337

 

every time the same old and predictable "paladins sux" threads took root, many hardcore poe players and build monkeys would respond.  the thing is, the folks making such claims o' paladin ineffectiveness, while numerous and boisterous at release, clear became an almost comical fringe element after a couple years and multiple expansions.  paladins by 3.0 were effective, but they were also a crude  frankenstein's monster kinda compromise o' conflicting design goals. 

 

personally, we played priests and paladins almost exclusive as our main, 'cause why not?  the only classes gaining advantage from playing as a main were priests and paladins.  could always add a rogue or wizard as a hireling, but priests and paladin mains benefited from the bonuses conferred by watcher dispositions.  we enjoyed both classes, but such didn't keep us from recognizing how potential overpowered were priests and how inelegant were paladins. both classes would benefit from major changes in poe2.

 

priests will no longer be vancian in poe 2. call it a good start.  

 

paladins need similar fundamental changes, but we don't see such alterations as likely. community expectations will continue to burden the developers with design goals much different than were contemplated by the folks at obsidian.  am not seeing a way, particular as poe2 is being sold to people who liked poe1, to convince fans to embrace a paladin who ain't so much a holy warrior, but is rather a resilient and low maintenance support class with powerful single player buffs and numerous useful auras.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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paladins need similar fundamental changes, but we don't see such alterations as likely. community expectations will continue to burden the developers with design goals much different than were contemplated by the folks at obsidian.  am not seeing a way, particular as poe2 is being sold to people who liked poe1, to convince fans to embrace a paladin who ain't so much a holy warrior, but is rather a resilient and low maintenance support class with powerful single player buffs and numerous useful auras.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Problem is, at that point they'd be competing directly with chanters, who can do that, but better. They either need to stay in the jack of all trades role or get a complete design from the ground up, to do something that wouldn't clash with one of the other "pure" classes.

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I think having the paladin orders be more mechanically deferentiatec without any talent selection could be helpful. Compare what we know about the black jacket and vanilla fighter. I'd like to see a similar level of difference between the orders as well.

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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- Paladin: I always had a feeling that paladins (aside from their double FoD alpha-strike) lack steady dps. An extra full attack ability or a talent that would add extra FoD charge/charges could be quite handy. Also there could be some talents that would augment 2h weapons, because as it is now, melee FoD paladins are forced exclusively into dual-wielding.

- Rogue: this class feels weaker partially because there are more enemies on PotD. And rogue lacks both AoE and hard-cc. Reducing party limit to 5 will ameliorate this problem through.

- Fighter: decent class, which unfortunately never finds a spot in my party. Mainly because he has no solid passive buffs / auras / synergies to provide to the rest of the group. Giving him an ability to rally his teammates or some passive 'bolstering presence' talent would be great.

Edited by MaxQuest
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paladins need similar fundamental changes, but we don't see such alterations as likely. community expectations will continue to burden the developers with design goals much different than were contemplated by the folks at obsidian.  am not seeing a way, particular as poe2 is being sold to people who liked poe1, to convince fans to embrace a paladin who ain't so much a holy warrior, but is rather a resilient and low maintenance support class with powerful single player buffs and numerous useful auras.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Problem is, at that point they'd be competing directly with chanters, who can do that, but better. They either need to stay in the jack of all trades role or get a complete design from the ground up, to do something that wouldn't clash with one of the other "pure" classes.

 

there were similarities 'tween the chanter role and the paladin.  however, keep in mind the chanter unique mechanic typical made 'em function very different.  a paladin's modal  had similarity to chanter's chants, but the paladin also had a significant array o' powerful, single-target, at-will buffs.  such paladin buffs might be per-encounter or per-rest, but the paladin need not wait to build phrases. chanter invocations were also filling a much different niche than were paladin abilities. 

 

am also thinking the developers were surprised by how effective chanters were at tanking.  the fact a hireling or main chanter had almost no need for dexterity allowed a player to boost defensive attributes if they wished to do so helped make chanters more tanky, but paladins with their superior health and deflection (once bolstered by faith and convictions) were seeming meant to be more capable o' front-line support than were chanters.  kinda o' continuum o' resilience were paladin, chanter and priest.  

 

am thinking there is less overlap than suggested, particular if a few o' the mechanics which made it possible for any class to effective tank with the correct general talent choices talents and selective defensive attribute boosts is mitigated in poe 2.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Both chanters and paladins can be considered a "low maintenance jack of all trades".

 

Paladins passive buffs are always on and they can use active abilities whenever they want.

 

Chanters have the disadvantage that they need to build up a recource in order to use active abilities. Many of easier battles are over before they can cast anything.

Chanters are very powerful bacause a) their class mechanics make dex very useless and b) some of their passive effects are very strong (e.g. dragon trashed).

When reading this, I think that chanters might need more changes than paladins.

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