Understated Revolution: Pillars of Eternity spells and abilities scale with character level now

[Infinitron]

The latest Fig update talked mostly about the mechanics of leveling up multiclassed characters, but on the way it also off-handedly dropped this bomb: https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire?update=250#updates

 

 

 

The level of a Power Source determines what level abilities can be chosen from that class, the available resources (casts/uses) for related abilities, and the strength (damage, number of projectiles, etc.) of those abilities.

 

Effectively, that means that abilities and spells (all of them? only some of them?) scale with level now. Not just their chance-to-hit like in PoE1, but their actual effects as well.

 

This is a significant change in how the Pillars of Eternity system works. It's going to be one heck of a challenge to balance.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Infinitron

[Gromnir]

such scaling is a prerequisite for balancing given the addition of multi-class.  such balancing will be imperfect.  

 

will be interesting.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Jajo]

I took this more in sense of a formalization and consolidation of previous systems, where one would get something like additional magic missile shots based on character level, +3 to all defenses per level, ...

[Infinitron]

The big question is, how do you implement the scaling without ruining low level single-classed characters who had powerful Level 1 abilities in PoE1?

 

For example, a full-strength Rogue Sneak Attack could make many characters with just one level of Rogue incredibly OP. But you wouldn't want to give a poor single-classed low level Rogue a nerfed 5% damage bonus Sneak Attack either.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Infinitron

[PrimeJunta]

Why would weak level 1 characters be a problem? All it means is that challenges will have to scale accordingly, and that some classes only differentiate properly as they level up.

[Gromnir]

The big question is, how do you implement the scaling without ruining low level single-classed characters who had powerful Level 1 abilities in PoE1?

 

For example, a Rogue's Sneak Attack could make many characters with just one level of Rogue incredibly OP. But you wouldn't want to give a poor single-classed low level Rogue a nerfed 5% damage bonus Sneak Attack either.

am not seeing an issue.  obviously the rogue's total first level abilities and talents will need be balanced 'gainst other classes and with encounter difficulty in mind.  is not gonna be much more difficult with scale than w/o. in fact, will be easier at low-levels than at higher levels precisely 'cause there will be fewer total available options which will need be balanced.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Lamppost in Winter]

I really enjoyed the Sneak Attack focused rogue, so I hope there isn't too much reliance on damage abilities now.

[morhilane]

The big question is, how do you implement the scaling without ruining low level single-classed characters who had powerful Level 1 abilities in PoE1?

I always though that low level powerful abilities was an issue introduced because there wasn't scaling of abilities per level so everything had to be balanced with the level cap instead.

[MaxQuest]

The level of a Power Source determines what level abilities can be chosen from that class, the available resources (casts/uses) for related abilities, and the strength (damage, number of projectiles, etc.) of those abilities.

This requires explanation.

 

Let's say we have a level 10/0 wizard. He has 30 arcane points. And he has 5 arcane level.

That 5 power_level, indicates that he has access to spells of rank 5, right?

 

The level of a Power Source determines what level abilities can be chosen from that class, the available resources (casts/uses) for related abilities, and the strength (damage, number of projectiles, etc.) of those abilities.

Q: So, a wizard with arcane_level 5, will more powerful/damaging spells by exactly 25%, than a similar wizard of arcane_level 4?

 

Q: The relation of power_level with damaging abilities is clear. What about cc-spells? If they are affected as well, does that mean that they will be super weak at power_level 1? (like lvl 18/0 cipher has psyonics_level 10 and 8s base duration on Whisper of Treason; will that mean that at psyonics_level 1, charm would last only 0.8s?)

 

Q: Also, does power_source_level have any influence over auto-attack damage?

 

The big question is, how do you implement the scaling without ruining low level single-classed characters who had powerful Level 1 abilities in PoE1?

 

For example, a full-strength Rogue Sneak Attack could make many characters with just one level of Rogue incredibly OP. But you wouldn't want to give a poor single-classed low level Rogue a nerfed 5% damage bonus Sneak Attack either.

I guess, this means compromise. Something like: 5 * (4 + guile_level)

I.e. let's say Sneak Attack starts at 20%, but a 18/0 rogue could reach 70%.

 

Although this would mean that abilities of a 5 guile_level rogue are only 12.5% stronger than those of a rogue with guile_level of 4.  

Edited February 3, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Nixl]

The latest Fig update talked mostly about the mechanics of leveling up multiclassed characters, but on the way it also off-handedly dropped this bomb: https://www.fig.co/campaigns/deadfire?update=250#updates

 

 

 

The level of a Power Source determines what level abilities can be chosen from that class, the available resources (casts/uses) for related abilities, and the strength (damage, number of projectiles, etc.) of those abilities.

 

Effectively, that means that abilities and spells (all of them? only some of them?) scale with level now. Not just their chance-to-hit like in PoE1, but their actual effects as well.

 

This is a significant change in how the Pillars of Eternity system works. It's going to be one heck of a challenge to balance.

While I agree that it is a big change, I am not certain it will be a huge challenge to balance.  Depending on how strong or weak a class is, Obsidian can easily adjust the percentage.  For example, if Rogue proves too weak, then Obsidian can adjust the increase from 5% increase to backstab per level to 8% per level.  

 

In my mind the important issue is not the percentages assigned, but whether powerlevels will have similar weight across all classes.  For example, is powerlevel a 5% damage increase for all classes, or does power level increase backstab damage 5% for rogue, whereas Priest receives a 5% increase to buff duration per level?  I would think that is where the balancing trouble would come from.  To continue with my latter example, if Priests receive a 5% increase to buff duration, but fights end significantly earlier, then a Priest's powerlevel provides less and less utility over time.  At that point, I would expect a greater incentive to multiclass after a certain level.      

Edited February 3, 2017 by Nixl

[IndiraLightfoot]

Hmm, my gut reaction is that I welcome this change, but I need to wait and see how it works with all the other changes coming our way.

[LordCrash]

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

What's still nostalgic about it? The GUI and the 2.5D perspective? 

 

Not enough, meh... 

[Infinitron]

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

 

lol, I was waiting for somebody to say this.

 

D&D had lots of spells that scaled with level. There were people who complained that PoE had multiple magic missile spells instead of just scaling up the basic one with more projectiles like in D&D. This change makes it more like the Infinity Engine games.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Infinitron

[kirottu]

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

What's still nostalgic about it? The GUI and the 2.5D perspective? 

 

Not enough, meh... 

 

Yeah, because it's not like D&D had spells that scaled with level, like fireball or magic missile or fire arrow. 

 

Do even remember the Infinity Engine games?

[illathid]

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

What's still nostalgic about it? The GUI and the 2.5D perspective? 

 

Not enough, meh... 

 

Spells scaling with level is more inline with D&D. Fireball did 1d6 damage per level of the caster up to a maximum of 10d6 in BG if I recall correctly. 

[Boeroer]

I think that system sounds awesome so far. And I'm not known for being a fanboy.

 

Thanks, Josh!

[LordCrash]

 

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

 

lol, I was waiting for somebody to say this.

 

I'm glad to deliver. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by LordCrash

[Archaven]

This system looks interesting.. I'm eager to wait and see how it plays out. But i think 75% is too high or too good for multi-class. If you are going pure-class then basically there's not much initiative in doing so.

 

Maybe it would be something like:

 

Fighter/Mage would be equal in power 75% / 55% if you max out to level 18

vs

Fighter Or Mage at 100/% at level 18

[Boeroer]

Hm? What do you mean? It's not that each class is giving you 75% with a multiclass char. It means a max level multiclassed char will only have 75% - 85% of the power level a max level pure class char will have.

 

If I understood that correctly. On the upside you might have awesome synergies. 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Boeroer

[morhilane]

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

What's still nostalgic about it? The GUI and the 2.5D perspective? 

 

Not enough, meh... 

Spell scales with level in D&D. Sneak attack damage scale with level in D&D. Lots of stuff scale with level in D&D.

 

None did in POE1 though.

[Infinitron]

The Empower mechanic and Power Sources are related: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post469037591

 

Empowering is the equivalent of gaining 3 power levels in the related Power Source. I am at home and don't have the progression in front of me, but it can mean that a spell gains additional projectiles (MMM), does more damage (Fireball), or gains additional jumps (Tayn's Chaotic Orb). Many powers will scale procedurally, but we have the ability to scale their effects individually as well.

[Gfted1]

Great changes!

[Rolandur]

Another blow for the old Infinity Engine and D&D feeling...

 

What's still nostalgic about it? The GUI and the 2.5D perspective? 

 

Not enough, meh... 

 

Screw it, I dare to agree but lets still give it a chance in the end.