Split Health/Stamina

[Eurhetemec]

Please consider carrying over the split health/stamina mechanic from POE.

 

Just because "some people" had a hard time understanding how it works is no reason to scrap it altogether. There surely should be enough time to come up with an absolutely idiot-proof way of communicating what that green bar represents or why characters aren't dying despite their portraits filling up with red.

 

If I heard that right during yesterdays Q&A even Josh is more in favour of the split health/stamina mechanic, so why not stick with it?

 

The original system was great in a lot of ways, but I think people do need to accept that it wasn't flawless, and main problem was not comprehension, at least as far as I can tell - I mean, I'm sure some people had that problem, but I think the problems run a bit deeper.

Specifically, the other problems with Health/Endurance are:

 

1) One character being on low health means you have to consider resting, even if everyone else is fine. This is somewhat out of your hands, unlike spell usage. It's not really an exciting or interesting choice, either, it just encourages a bit more use of resting (but even on Hard you typically find enough supplies to rest whenever you want - only on PotD does it get more extreme - but even then you can usually just go back and get more supplies, a bit tediously).

 

2) Perverse incentive - It often makes more sense to let someone go down than to try and keep them up with the Health system, because they're getting pummeled, and whilst you can keep them up, often fairly easily, they're going to be ground down to very low health - and the long-term problems with that are much worse than just having 5 out of 6 people in the fight.

 

They put in the extra health loss on down and injuries to try and make this a bad choice, but it's still more often the right choice than it feels like it should be.

 

It also penalizes lower-DPS, higher-survivability builds, but whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is very subjective.

 

What they seem to be doing is dumping Health and making Injuries the main stick - this will eliminate the perverse incentive entirely, and also lessen the "one character is low on health" issue - making it instead "one character as a lot of injuries" - but that will be more your fault. It also eliminates the penalty to low-DPS, high-survivability builds, but that could be seen as good, bad, or neither.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Eurhetemec

[Tigranes]

Why is 1) a problem? If resting were only required when all party members were critical, then the game would need to be a lot more difficult or nobody would ever need to rest. There is some degree of noninteresting tedium here, yes, but that's coming from resting as a system in itself. 

 

Re. 2) seems like in difficult battles you need people standing to make that crucial action, while in easy battles it's over quick enough that you won't lose that many buckets. I'm not sure this has ever been a salient thing for me, but maybe it has for others?

 

I'm OK with the injury system, but it's going to need to be a lot more robust than what we see in POE1. Often they're of the type that many players won't even notice.

[injurai]

I honestly don't think they need to change the rest or health system. All that was needed to fix the issues with spam resting, or excess use of per encounter spell rotations was to incorporate the empower mechanic.

[Insidous]

 

1) One character being on low health means you have to consider resting, even if everyone else is fine. This is somewhat out of your hands, unlike spell usage. It's not really an exciting or interesting choice, either, it just encourages a bit more use of resting (but even on Hard you typically find enough supplies to rest whenever you want - only on PotD does it get more extreme - but even then you can usually just go back and get more supplies, a bit tediously).

 

 

 

It lies in your hands in so far as that you could have prevented that character from taking damage and instead of resting you can choose to protect that character in upcoming fights. It adds strategy and I consider it a really interesting choice.

 

If I ever had to go back for supplies it was a clear signal that I played on a too high of a difficulty level or were too low in character level for that area. Something has to encourage resting and the balance of per rest abilities and health was perfectly suited. In fact a limited resting, injury only system is very binary. Either you survive your average fights, meaning you never have to rest, or people get knocked out, becoming weaker and force you to rest every couple of fights anyways and so quickly using all your supplies. With the Stamina/Health system everybody needed to rest once in a while, meaning there were plenty of supplies to find and they were never quite useless.

 

Could the system be more forgiving sometimes? Yeah probably. Having healing abilities tied to the skill system instead of talents for example, would make skilling them less of a waste and helping a lot with single low health characters. 

 

 

Re. 2) seems like in difficult battles you need people standing to make that crucial action, while in easy battles it's over quick enough that you won't lose that many buckets. I'm not sure this has ever been a salient thing for me, but maybe it has for others?

 

 

Yeah, it hasn't been in issue for me and with knockout injuries it seems hardly useful.

Yeah never has been an issue for me neither. Seems hardly useful with knockout injuries being a thing.

[rjshae]

- One of the better examples for a wound system is drakensang. If a char gets more damage than his constitution score he must make a saving throw or get a wound. Each wound lowers your stats and you die if you get more than 4 wounds, no matter how many HP you had left. Some weapons or special attacks had a higher chance to inflict wounds. It was an effective way to kill some enemies with many HP (like ogres), but some enemies were immun to wounds (most bosses plus some others). In combat you should avoid getting wounds, because each wound makes it more likely to get another wound and you are busy removing your wounds (with spells or herbs) wich means you are not busy attacking the enemy.

 

I too enjoyed the wound system in Drakensang. A benefit of that approach is that medical supplies such as bandages became useful, even during combat.

[lettiv]

I don't see the issue(s) with POE's health/stamina mechanic either.

There are always characters that bruise more easily, whether for the role they occupy in the party (the "tank") or because they're just squishier (the "glass cannon") than others.

Figuring out how to keep them alive or more importantly, keep them conscious during combat is half the challenge and half the fun. Do I use one of the few precious charges of Consecrated Ground or Watchful Presence which would also benefit the rest of the party but could be of better use later on or do I concentrate on keeping the squishy party member on his/her feet with Lay on Hands or Second Wind?

For restoring long-term health there's always Field Triage or Wound Binding you can use on single characters instead of "wasting" resting supplies. Which I found were available or could be looted fairly regularly and in just the right amount on pretty much every map, even on Path of the Damned. At times they were even a bit too abundant for my taste.

So... I too would rather they stick with the established split mechanic from POE than wasting time and resources on improving or overhauling something that probably just needs a bit more fine-tuning instead. And maybe another attempt at communicating how it works, if there are really people that still "don't get it" nearly two years later.

[Pel]

As a huge fan of Dragon Age Origins and injury mechanics in crpgs, I like the new system way more. The Endurance/Health split didn't make much realistic or logical sense anyway, it was just mechanically fitting for the amount of rest-pacing Obsidian created for the first game. It felt like it gave some dragon fights a time-limit/dps-check of sorts if you had a lot of healers, so it felt a bit gimmicky - it kind of felt like Eder's Health WAS his Endurance as he could only take so much of a beating before giving out.

[Pel]

Not to mention that I occasionally had to trek all the way back to town after a long dungeon-crawl before a big boss fight just to get my max health back up to full even though I had sufficient spells for said boss fight - then I had to face the TRUE hardest boss of Pillars 1, the Loading Screen.

[Bluedemonfox]

I don't understand... where did they say they are removing the current health split mechanic, and why? I thought it was quite an interesting mechanic...

[Lamppost in Winter]

I don't understand... where did they say they are removing the current health split mechanic, and why? I thought it was quite an interesting mechanic...

 

 Josh stated on a Q&A stream that they were experimenting with replacing Health with Injuries, but it's not set in stone yet.

[demeisen]

Here's hoping they keep it, maybe with some tweaks or changes.  The essence of it is a decent idea, and it even makes some rough sense if you imagine it as "adrenaline fueled burst energy" vs "longer term stamina".

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[lettiv]

Hopefully the old system is still up for consideration, and just wasn't present in the pre-alpha build shown of at E3 because mechanics such as this usually are implemented in their final iteration towards the end of development(?).

[Katarack21]

I really enjoyed the health/endurance mechanic.

[MortyTheGobbo]

I also like it. I feel like it's a compromise between the old-school, unforgiving system where wounds are forever until you spend resources, and the more modern style, where you're back to full strength after every fight. That said, it took me a while to get just how damage is applied to both pools.

 

Last I've heard, they're going for something more similar to Tyranny in Deadfire?

[Wormerine]

I thought health/stamina system was an elegant solution (especially once knockout injuries were added). I didn't think that Tyranny system worked all that well. Per-rest abilities were few, and for the most part levelling up was quick enoug that resting felt unnecessary until late game to me.

 

To me health/stamina system was clear, while T injury system - was not confusing but more messy.

[Wormerine]

I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

That is true, sometimes scripted positioning would mess up your day.

 

Personally DA approach didn't work for me. Tyranny did similar thing and I found it unengagin as well. Both games felt way to MMOish (watching healthpools slowely depleting, using abilities if they are off cool down and drinking healing potions). I am certainly against increasing health pools - it just makes everything last longer without adding to gameplay.

[Sedrefilos]

What I saw from the demo gameplay video, the new health system is going to be more Dragon Age Origins style, which is fine by me. Although I liked the split system both mechanically and thematically, this is the best other system I've seen in pc rpgs. Survive the encounter or game over. If anyone fell during it, they get an injury; stuck too many injuries and you can't progress further (because your characters keep falling in combat/encounters) so you better have supplies to rest and treat them. You don't? Guess you need to abandon the area for the moment.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Sedrefilos

[FlintlockJazz]

I hated the Dragon Age Origins system.  Deadfire going a similar way makes Jazz a SadJazz.

[Katarack21]

I wish like hell they'd do away with scripted positioning *entirely*. They don't bloody know what role my main char is in when they script it; half the time my caster is right up front getting ganked immediately and I'm screwed. It does *nothing* but piss me off and I see no legitimate reason for it to be done.

It just sucks, all the time, period.

[anameforobsidian]

I thought the endurance / health mechanic was brilliant.  Resting supplies pushed you to go further, while health was a hard limitation.  It had me dramatically changing party role as the health of certain characters dropped lower, and pushed me away from trying to tank and spank every fight.  For instance, Eder would take a beating so he would pickup a gun while Kana got the slack.  Or Aloth would be so wounded I would do a couple fights without him.  Without it there's less of a link between long term goals and tactics.  I think we'll see a lot of people barely surviving fights and then wondering why they can't beat bosses that other people faceroll.

[oholio]

I'd rather see Obs sticking with the already established and working split system too, for all the reasons already mentioned, but in particular:

a) for the unique, fresh approach to the same old tired "one health pool" paradigm and
b) for the additional layer of tactical depth (in and out of combat) and having to consider short term endurance vs. long term health.

[dam]

I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

 

This, most definitely.

Single reason I stopped playing a Monk.

 

No matter how good you are, how well you gear, how min-maxed you built, your Monk is going to need Rest for no other reason than him existing.

 

This is needlessly punishing towards a class that's meant to be played that way.

 

 

 

One has to ask themselves, what's the actual value of endurance/hp split pools, what core mechanic does it provide ?

It prevents people from cheesing fights with constant tanking and healing ? So what if they wanted to play that way ? This is a single player game.

It forces people to Rest from time to time for realism ? So what if they don't care about it ?

It punishes them for playing a 10 CON monk ? Well maybe they are confident in their ability to keep him alive even with 10 CON.

 

If the main incentive is to give the CON stat some measure of value, then the problem lies with the CON stat itself and not the need for split endurance/hp pools.

As per my suggestion on the POE1 forums, CON should give +DR so people are discouraged from dumping it.

 

Aside from that, I see no practical use to the split hp/endurance pool mechanic, and I for one would like for it to go away.

It ruins Monks.

[Insidous]

 

I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

 

This, most definitely.

Single reason I stopped playing a Monk.

 

No matter how good you are, how well you gear, how min-maxed you built, your Monk is going to need Rest for no other reason than him existing.

 

This is needlessly punishing towards a class that's meant to be played that way.

 

 

 

One has to ask themselves, what's the actual value of endurance/hp split pools, what core mechanic does it provide ?

It prevents people from cheesing fights with constant tanking and healing ? So what if they wanted to play that way ? This is a single player game.

It forces people to Rest from time to time for realism ? So what if they don't care about it ?

It punishes them for playing a 10 CON monk ? Well maybe they are confident in their ability to keep him alive even with 10 CON.

 

If the main incentive is to give the CON stat some measure of value, then the problem lies with the CON stat itself and not the need for split endurance/hp pools.

As per my suggestion on the POE1 forums, CON should give +DR so people are discouraged from dumping it.

 

Aside from that, I see no practical use to the split hp/endurance pool mechanic, and I for one would like for it to go away.

It ruins Monks.

 

 

I get where you coming from and it does suck for monks in the early game, but the early game is by far the most challenging part anyways.

 

You perfectly describe the advantages already:

It prevents cheesing and forces you to rethink your tactics depending on your health.

It adds a long term strategic layer.

 

Yeah it is a single player game, but like it has been discussed in countless balance threads, many people don't like cheese. It either makes the game way to easy or the cheese the only possible way to play.

The health split surely wasn't executed perfectly, but I think many issues like it's unforgiveness (specially for monks) could be iterated on and I for one am pretty sad that they seem to abandon it.

[dam]

 

 

I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

 

This, most definitely.

Single reason I stopped playing a Monk.

 

No matter how good you are, how well you gear, how min-maxed you built, your Monk is going to need Rest for no other reason than him existing.

 

This is needlessly punishing towards a class that's meant to be played that way.

 

 

 

One has to ask themselves, what's the actual value of endurance/hp split pools, what core mechanic does it provide ?

It prevents people from cheesing fights with constant tanking and healing ? So what if they wanted to play that way ? This is a single player game.

It forces people to Rest from time to time for realism ? So what if they don't care about it ?

It punishes them for playing a 10 CON monk ? Well maybe they are confident in their ability to keep him alive even with 10 CON.

 

If the main incentive is to give the CON stat some measure of value, then the problem lies with the CON stat itself and not the need for split endurance/hp pools.

As per my suggestion on the POE1 forums, CON should give +DR so people are discouraged from dumping it.

 

Aside from that, I see no practical use to the split hp/endurance pool mechanic, and I for one would like for it to go away.

It ruins Monks.

 

 

I get where you coming from and it does suck for monks in the early game, but the early game is by far the most challenging part anyways.

 

You perfectly describe the advantages already:

It prevents cheesing and forces you to rethink your tactics depending on your health.

It adds a long term strategic layer.

 

Yeah it is a single player game, but like it has been discussed in countless balance threads, many people don't like cheese. It either makes the game way to easy or the cheese the only possible way to play.

The health split surely wasn't executed perfectly, but I think many issues like it's unforgiveness (specially for monks) could be iterated on and I for one am pretty sad that they seem to abandon it.

 

 

One would argue that people who do not like cheese are free to not cheese, in that case

 

It's like the old debate years ago for devs to implement a respec character option.

Some people somehow managed to say that while it would be an OPTION, its mere presence would offend them and diminish their experience... 'kay...

 

 

 

I appreciate that you liked the mechanic, I for one shan't be too sad to be honest, Monks happened to be amongst my favourite classes.

For example, it's practically impossible to get the achievement to rest < 10 times, with a monk.

You just have to, you're going into fights with 33/105 endurance because you're down to 33 hp.

You're actually getting punished for not resting, even though the core mechanics of your class require you to lose endurance (and thus, HP).

You could always make a CON, RESOLVE, shield wielding monk but then what's the point in playing one ?

 

 

 

I would definitely be okay with the mechanic if we had some way of regenerating it in combat.

Want to last longer in fights ? 'kay, but you need to sacrifice DPS for that.

That's a deal I would take.

I don't get to Bless my party another 30 seconds, but instead I get to regenerate HP, works for me.

[Wormerine]

I thought that the very point of health vs stamina is that you can't regenerate it:-).

 

I just would like to hear more imput on why the change is happening. So far the reason we heard was: "we liked it but some people got confused at first" which is an odd reason to move to a different system, which I see it as inferior. I might be wrong, but a good argumentation can go a long way.

 

I didn't like the fact that they changed party size to 5 characters. But the reason for that sounds solid. As they didn't seem to be as confident about the change to health system I yell anytime I have a chance to let them know I like the old system.