edumication fael

Gromnir · January 31, 2017

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/colleges-enroll-students-arent-prepared-higher-education/

"But even four-year schools, which are more likely to have some admissions criteria, were not immune. In the California State University system, which admitted about 72 percent of first-time freshman applicants in 2014, more than 40 percent of incoming freshman were deemed not ready for college-level work in at least one subject. Nearly a quarter of incoming students at Colorado’s and Montana’s four-year schools were placed in remedial courses and about 30 percent were in Arkansas."

our public schools is failing our kids.

When I worked specifically with remediation at a college that had open admissions, ~60% of the incoming class were remedial and had been for at least 20-30 years. However all that time spent working with remedial students (and indeed being a part of organizations tied to remediation) taught me that this isn't a new problem. The part that's new(ish) is that the colleges themselves are being forced to handle the remediation (to some degree) rather than requiring the student complete a prep school after graduation from HS but before matriculation into the college which was more the norm back in the 1700s-1800s.

am understanding your pov as you say you work for an open-enrollment system, yes? but CSU? is only 9% of graduating seniors who is guaranteed spots at UC, and they had to open UC merced to keep close to being able to match that goal. CSU has therefore necessarily been taking a higher performing group o' students.

use csu chico as random. would be unfair to use cal poly.

http://www.csuchico.edu/admissions/want-to-apply/freshmen/eligibility.shtml

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1083

average freshman were getting b/b+ in high school coursework which is seeming near required to be college prep. nevertheless, the kids is unprepared. this is not a case o' returning adults who ain't been to school in years or folks deciding 'tween working as a security guard or going to a community college as amentep is likely to see frequent.

am thinking educators writing this off as a kinda business as usual fail is as disturbing as is the numbers.

"Sonja Brookins Santelises, chief executive officer of Baltimore City Public Schools, is well aware of the gap between the knowledge needed to earn a diploma in the district and what college professors expect students to be able to do on day one. She served as chief academic officer for the district before going to the D.C.-based think tank Education Trust in 2013, where she studied this issue nationally. She returned to the Baltimore school district in the summer of 2016.

"It’s “more like a chasm,” she said. “We’ve had too low a standard for too long.”

"The district is working to increase dual-enrollment opportunities, through which high school students can enroll in college courses, as well as increase general exposure to higher education, Santelises said. It’s also trying to equip schools with the tools to deal with trauma in students’ lives and to better support teachers in raising standards to challenge students more in high school.

"“If we’ve been giving kids worksheets with simplistic answers for years and then get upset when they can’t write a five-paragraph essay or recognize subject-verb agreement, that’s not the kids,” she said. “That’s us.”"

am glad some folks in education recognize a problem.

HA! Good Fun!

BruceVC · January 31, 2017

Can I be honest with you guys in the USA, I would be much concerned about the large numbers of adults in the USA who reject certain social, economic and political realities and instead embrace the world of alternative facts and post-truth
The ones who don't agree with you you mean.

WOD !!! Stop being cheeky....

I dont expect people to agree with me, I am not right all the time and Im surprised you would think this?

I am only right 95-98 % of the time :teehee:

Wrath of Dagon · January 31, 2017

That is upside down.

Ben No.3 · January 31, 2017

I'm still wondering, though....
We went to war with the British over far fewer taxes and property rights violations than the US Government is hammering us with today.

We do teach the Revolutionary War in 8th grade. It's a big unit.

Do you talk about de Beaumarchais? He's a cool guy

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ben No.3

Ben No.3 · January 31, 2017

Can I be honest with you guys in the USA, I would be much concerned about the large numbers of adults in the USA who reject certain social, economic and political realities and instead embrace the world of alternative facts and post-truth
The ones who don't agree with you you mean.

WOD !!! Stop being cheeky....

I dont expect people to agree with me, I am not right all the time and Im surprised you would think this?

I am only right 95-98 % of the time

Let's agree on the facts you state are generally right and your general line of thinking goes in the right direction? Doesn't mean your conclusions are

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ben No.3

Ben No.3 · January 31, 2017

That is upside down.

Do you know the difference between Breitbart and Marx? One is an propaganda outlet, the other an acclaimed, well respected and highly influential sociologist.

Na, but seriously... why don't you give me an brief overview over your theory of the world? And back it up with acclaimed studies or maybe social scientists?

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ben No.3

PK htiw klaw eriF · January 31, 2017

Jesus christ ben if you're going to mention Marx every third word can you bother to read him first?

Ben No.3 · January 31, 2017

Jesus christ ben if you're going to mention Marx every third word can you bother to read him first?

As long as Breitbart is a thing, so long will I bring up Marx. Deal?

It goes without saying I'm being an annoying prick. But there's some fun in it

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ben No.3

Amentep · January 31, 2017

am understanding your pov as you say you work for an open-enrollment system, yes? but CSU? is only 9% of graduating seniors who is guaranteed spots at UC, and they had to open UC merced to keep close to being able to match that goal. CSU has therefore necessarily been taking a higher performing group o' students.

use csu chico as random. would be unfair to use cal poly.

http://www.csuchico.edu/admissions/want-to-apply/freshmen/eligibility.shtml

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg01_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1083

average freshman were getting b/b+ in high school coursework which is seeming near required to be college prep. nevertheless, the kids is unprepared. this is not a case o' returning adults who ain't been to school in years or folks deciding 'tween working as a security guard or going to a community college as amentep is likely to see frequent.

am thinking educators writing this off as a kinda business as usual fail is as disturbing as is the numbers.

"Sonja Brookins Santelises, chief executive officer of Baltimore City Public Schools, is well aware of the gap between the knowledge needed to earn a diploma in the district and what college professors expect students to be able to do on day one. She served as chief academic officer for the district before going to the D.C.-based think tank Education Trust in 2013, where she studied this issue nationally. She returned to the Baltimore school district in the summer of 2016.

"It’s “more like a chasm,” she said. “We’ve had too low a standard for too long.”

"The district is working to increase dual-enrollment opportunities, through which high school students can enroll in college courses, as well as increase general exposure to higher education, Santelises said. It’s also trying to equip schools with the tools to deal with trauma in students’ lives and to better support teachers in raising standards to challenge students more in high school.

"“If we’ve been giving kids worksheets with simplistic answers for years and then get upset when they can’t write a five-paragraph essay or recognize subject-verb agreement, that’s not the kids,” she said. “That’s us.”"

am glad some folks in education recognize a problem.

HA! Good Fun!

I worked for a strictly open enrollment institution, now I work at a mixed tier one depending on which college you're applying for admissions to. Even the pickiest of the pickiest in the state system though have developmental students (typically offered a special admissions at those elite schools due to some non-academic talent - musician, singer, athlete, artist, etc.). I'm not aware of our system using guaranteed % for state HS grads like you've described California's using.

I'll also add that the general cycle here for the past decade is someone points out the number of students going to remediation -> HS points out pressure from state and national to meet set graduation rates and national score goals and how that means they spend more time preparing students for the tests (SAT/ACT/End of Year) than college -> legislature puts more laws to increase reliance on national test scores to prove HS are teaching to college standard and graduation rates to increase

HoonDing · January 31, 2017

It's clear that President Bannon needs not an intellectual but a violent, terrible youth in the coming race wars.

Wrath of Dagon · January 31, 2017

That is upside down.
Do you know the difference between Breitbart and Marx? One is an propaganda outlet, the other an acclaimed, well respected and highly influential sociologist.

Na, but seriously... why don't you give me an brief overview over your theory of the world? And back it up with acclaimed studies or maybe social scientists?

Just read the US Constitution, it's not that long. As for back up, compare US to North Korea.

Tigranes · January 31, 2017

"America: At least it's better than North Korea!"

Wrath of Dagon · January 31, 2017

It's better than everything, but North Korea is the clearest illustration of Marxism in action

Deadly_Nightshade · January 31, 2017

It's better than everything...

I guess that depends on your criteria. While in an ideal world the US would be awesome the current implementation has much to be desired.

Guard Dog · January 31, 2017

Get the Federal Government out of education. Once upon a time the individual states designed their curricula around what the State Universities expected incoming freshmen to know. In those day the US education system was much better. One of the best in the world. Now the federal government was made a bloody mess of it (as if they could do anything else) and we never break into the top 10.

Tigranes · January 31, 2017

Get the Federal Government out of education. Once upon a time the individual states designed their curricula around what the State Universities expected incoming freshmen to know. In those day the US education system was much better. One of the best in the world. Now the federal government was made a bloody mess of it (as if they could do anything else) and we never break into the top 10.

As a foreigner, I'm genuinely curious (and ignorant): what makes state government so much better than the federal in these cases, such that so many commentators will often say "give it to the states and they'll just do it better"? Is it a general statement about scale, and governing as locally as possible? Is there a proven track record of states handling education or other issues far better, and if so, is that an efficiency question or is that about states tending to take different solutions?

Ben No.3 · January 31, 2017

It's better than everything, but North Korea is the clearest illustration of Marxism in action

Actually, North Korea took any reference to communism, Marxism or socialism out of its constitution an der replaced it with basically a persona cult around the dictatorship.

http://polisci.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/people/u3873/Zook_NorthKorea_reform_SJIL.pdf

But nice try

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ben No.3

Wrath of Dagon · February 1, 2017

You can name a communist state without cult of personality?

Guard Dog · February 1, 2017

Get the Federal Government out of education. Once upon a time the individual states designed their curricula around what the State Universities expected incoming freshmen to know. In those day the US education system was much better. One of the best in the world. Now the federal government was made a bloody mess of it (as if they could do anything else) and we never break into the top 10.

As a foreigner, I'm genuinely curious (and ignorant): what makes state government so much better than the federal in these cases, such that so many commentators will often say "give it to the states and they'll just do it better"? Is it a general statement about scale, and governing as locally as possible? Is there a proven track record of states handling education or other issues far better, and if so, is that an efficiency question or is that about states tending to take different solutions?

Ok, this is a bit complex because in the most un-libertarian fashion I do believe the Federal Government does have a role to play in education and not everything is has done has been a disaster. Although most of the recent things have been. The federal government is responsible for de-segregating schools, the national school lunch program, the act that created the Land Grant Colleges in the post-civil war US (I forget the name of the act) and the Special Education programs of the 1970's. These were all a big deal that helped. Prior to the 1830's (give or take, I'm going on memory here) most schools were community managed or parochial. Most children learned from their parents. Around the 1830s a Congressman named Mann began a reform program for "common" schools based on German education of the day. Basically students were taught the same thing all over the state. All the other states followed suit. This was when teaching actually became a profession. Now the students were being taught a curricula that the Universities and trade colleges ( they were called Agricultural and Mechanical colleges and many are still around) wanted incoming students to know. By the late 20th Century a fellow named Dewey (if you have ever used a card catalogue you know who he is) began writing textbooks that taught not just academics but life skills and they were quickly incorporated into state run schools. By the 1950s & 60's I think the US primary education system was the best in the world. And then it started to fall apart. In the '70's and 80's the Government began to get more involved in funding, curricula design, and the local school boards and state governments began to lose control. And then the federal government began to take funding collected by taxes in one state and distribute (or withhold if the schools did not comply with mandatory curricula) and the whole thing has become something of a mess.

That is a very brief summation of something big, complex, and sort of messy but I hope you get the idea.

Tigranes · February 1, 2017

Thanks. So in this case, your point is that state run schools have proven able to take on good ideas and stay on top of the latest education strategies, while federal involvement hasn't done much for actual teaching quality since it got hands dirty in the 70s? It's good to get the specific reasons, because they are certainly more substantial than a blanket wish for local government in any subject.

Guard Dog · February 1, 2017

Thanks. So in this case, your point is that state run schools have proven able to take on good ideas and stay on top of the latest education strategies, while federal involvement hasn't done much for actual teaching quality since it got hands dirty in the 70s? It's good to get the specific reasons, because they are certainly more substantial than a blanket wish for local government in any subject.

That plus the expansion of Federal Government control over what is or isn't taught in schools means a total loss of local and state control. If there is something your local government is doing that you don't like or want to see done better it is easy to reach out to the people who can make a change. If the Federal Government is doing something you don't like, tough luck. A recent example is the argument over whether Intelligent Design should have been taught alongside Evolution in Texas public schools. The voters of Texas who pay the taxes wanted it. the Federal Government said no. Whether you agree with ID or not, it's still up to the voters how live in the school districts to say what or how their children are taught IMO. That is lost once Big Brother is involved.

Barothmuk · February 1, 2017

"America: At least it's better than North Korea!"
It's better than everything

Haha

Darkpriest · February 1, 2017

It's fairly simple, really....

It's the fault of the parents - as they want their children not to be stressed out and be treated like special snowflakes

It's the fault of the edu system - it does not challenge the kids enough, as they could get stressed out

It's the fault of the PC bullcrap - we are all winners, we are all special etc. killing healthy competitiveness

It's the fault of the mass media - showing that you just need looks and be a spineless dumbass - there is no value in being smart, especially in the cultural circles suffering worst effects, like blacks and spanics - but any mention of that will get you labeled racist

and then it's the fault of politics, not giving two ****s about this, because stupid voters are easier to manipulate

As for edu being state funded - it does not work, state has too many expenses as is and high quality education institutes need extra inflow from private funding.

Sure, baseline education should be available to all, and should be good enough, that there is no such gaps between what you know at the end of High School and what the Univs want and expect from you, but Univ level should be based on scholarships and combination of state funding and private funding. State only institutes stop being good and productive, and the cadre just looks for lazy ways of pulling gov. money in most cases.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Darkpriest

Ben No.3 · February 1, 2017

You can name a communist state without cult of personality?

Of course.

Since a state can't be communist by definition, I'll refer to socialist states. I will also only imclude states that have socialism in their constitution up until today, and I will site the part of the constitution I'm referring to. I'll also include their form of government.

-Bangladesh (multi party democracy)

Preamble: "Further pledging that it shall be a fundamental aim of the State to realise through the democratic process, a socialist society free from exploitation, a society in which the rule of law, fundamental human rights and freedoms, equality and justice, political, economic and social, will be secured for all citizens;"

-Guyana (presidential representative republic; multi party system)

Preamble: "Convinced that the organisation of the State and society on socialist principles is the only means of ensuring social and economic justice for all of the people of Guyana; and, therefore, being motivated and guided by the principles of socialism"

-India (multi party democracy)

Preamble: "We, the people of India, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic and to secure to all its citizens:"

-Nepal (federal, secular parliamentary republic)

Section 1, Article 4: "Nepal is an independent, indivisible, sovereign, secular, inclusive democratic, socialism-oriented federal democratic republican state"

-Portugal (Multi party democracy)

Preamble: "The Constituent Assembly affirms the Portuguese people's decision to (...) open up a path towards a socialist society"

-Sri Lanka (multi party democracy; in fact the oldest democracy of Asia)

Preamble: "[...] to constitute Sri Lanka into a democratic socialist republic whilst ratifying the immutable republican principles of representative democracy, and assuring to all peoples freedom, equality, justice, fundamental human rights and the independence of the judiciary"

-Tanzania (in theory multi party democracy; however, one party holds 2/3 of the seats, right now it is in practice a one party democracy)

Section 1, Article 3: "The United Republic is a democratic, secular and socialist state which adheres to multi-party democracy"

If you want to include North Korea, even though they follow their own ideology called Juche, then here you have North Korea:

-North Korea (dictatorship)

Preamble: "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is the socialist motherland of Juche, which has applied the idea and leadership of Kim Il-sung."

I think the difference, especially when looking at persona cult, is quite evident. But North Korea is the exception, not the rule.

Of course, we also have China, Cuba, Lao and Vietnam following Marxism-Leninism.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Ben No.3

Darkpriest · February 1, 2017

See how all of these are making financially. real paradise each one of them

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