Romance

[LordCrash]

Yes, I'm sure many people think this is how it works because it's how it works in a game with elves and trolls.

You don't really want to come up with the old but flawed argument that just because it's fantasy everyting is possible/arbitrary, do you? Because that's not how fantasy works at all.

 

But yeah, I doubt most people believe that real life is that simple. That's not the issue I have. The issue is that I prefer believable characters that act like real human beings and interesting and meaningful relationships between complex persons instead of just stuff that is full of clichés and flawed concepts about human relationships, even in a fantasy setting.

Edited February 1, 2017 by LordCrash

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

They really need romance as stretch goals. I think that may out of a sudden pull a big crowd from the Bioware fans to start pledging.

The best romance scenes do involve stretching.

[Eumaios]

Some homie up above said that people didn't want a 'believable' romance. Instead, he claims, they want idealized romances. He could be right. I can't speak for what 'people' want. I guess I could if they all told me and I trusted they were telling the truth. I can only say what 'I' want. There's no TEAM in I, unless maybe you're schizophrenic. So, what I could stomach is a romance that is perhaps idealized, but believable to the degree that it isn't offensively silly. Some other homie up there talked about having one romance crafted into the story. I agree with that entirely, which I guess means at least two 'people' could live with a romance that wasn't some half-assed tacked on politically correct hodge-podge of crappy gifts, cartoon hearts over characters' heads, and teen fantasy fade to black moment. Put in a romance like the Nameless One had with Annah. He didn't get a lot of action, but they sure did generate a lot of heat. Kind of reminds me of my first marriage... on both counts. That or Deionarra. No action at all, but at least you know she's not cheating on you.

[Skyleaf]

 

I actually think that Cassandra's romance is quite nice. There's a whole lot of camp but the romance was fluid. She was the romanced character in my first playthrough, kind of like a test run since I doubted that I'd like her stiff personality. The cheese was the actual appeal in this one. I'm sort of reminded of those goofy 80s romance movies I would watch on TV when nothing else was on.

 

Yeah, it's like in real life. Just say some nice things, be a bit cheesy and make the right presents and every woman will adore you and let you **** her in instant. Life is so simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/not

 

But the dream lives on, thanks to Bioware... 

 

 

Stop it, you're quietly making me ashamed of myself...

 

Yes, sometimes I do love me some corn to go with all that cheese  , heck I've seen The Princess Bride 70 times or something.

 

Well, at least the Inquisitor himself felt half stupid reciting all that pompous bit of poetry. He was like, uuuhhh, this is not working out for you? I thought you like all this casanova stuff? 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Skyleaf

[Blarghagh]

 

Yes, I'm sure many people think this is how it works because it's how it works in a game with elves and trolls.

You don't really want to come up with the old but flawed argument that just because it's fantasy everyting is possible/arbitrary, do you? Because that's not how fantasy works at all.

 

But yeah, I doubt most people believe that real life is that simple. That's not the issue I have. The issue is that I prefer believable characters that act like real human beings and interesting and meaningful relationships between complex persons instead of just stuff that is full of clichés and flawed concepts about human relationships, even in a fantasy setting.

 

 

We're pretty much in agreement, honestly. What I meant with my little jab was that in BioWare's ridiculous cliché-storm settings like Mass Effect and Dragon Age those things are perfectly acceptable. Some people here seem to oppose the very concept of romance in games simply based on BioWare's track-record of it not being realistic enough for them. I'm not sure where the idea came from that in those universes, which are about as deep as a puddle, romance needs to be the thing held to a higher standard? I personally don't like them very much, but I can see why people would and am dumbfounded by the sheer hatred some people exhibit. During the original Project Eternity kickstarter we had to institute a dedicated romance thread to keep the flamewars from spilling out...

 

In PoE, which is conceptually a much darker universe trying to paint a much more realistic picture, you'd need a much different approach. Personally I quite enjoyed some of the unrequited love elements present in Obs' KotOR II (especially after the restoration project - Atton's dying declaration of love was nothing short of fantastically written and performed) and I feel an approach like that would be interesting and fitting. None of that gift-giving nonsense. Essentially what you need is a romantic entanglement that doesn't exist simply to "win".

[Fluffle]

@TrueNeutral

 

That's exactly what I have been wondering about for so long. A lot of people who dislike the idea of romance in PoE seem to know - for fact - that Obsidian would handle romances the very same way as modern Bioware does.

 

I have never understood this line of reasoning.

[Blarghagh]

On the flipside, we've also had some completely insane "promancers" that felt like any companion you can't romance isn't a companion at all and claimed that to be realistic something HAS to include a bunch of romance and more importantly sex. Fair is fair, some of the BioWare fanbase is... rabid, to say the least, about romances.

[Leferd]

What's the fantasy equivalent of swiping right?

[JerekKruger]

That's exactly what I have been wondering about for so long. A lot of people who dislike the idea of romance in PoE seem to know - for fact - that Obsidian would handle romances the very same way as modern Bioware does.

 

I have never understood this line of reasoning.

 

Indeed. I'm not particularly fond of romances, but (a) I can pretty much ignore them and (b) as you say, I suspect Obsidian would handle them quite differently to Bioware.

[Aramintai]

I've missed that Twitch stream, did anybody ask about romances there?

[JerekKruger]

I've missed that Twitch stream, did anybody ask about romances there?

 

The question was definitely raised at least once in the Twitch chat, but as far as I know Josh never got to it (or tactically ignored it I guess).

[Bill Gates' Son]

I've missed that Twitch stream, did anybody ask about romances there?

 

Yes, but they ignored the question.  

[Aramintai]

 

I've missed that Twitch stream, did anybody ask about romances there?

 

The question was definitely raised at least once in the Twitch chat, but as far as I know Josh never got to it (or tactically ignored it I guess).

 

Well, nothing new, I guess. With how frequently it was asked everywhere they're ignoring it on purpose.

[Eumaios]

I've heard the same argument for any number of things in a game. To wit, why do you care if someone else gets this thing you don't want? The thing is, romances won't exist in a vacuum. Even if the developers are deft, the romances will be part of the fabric of the game. Moreso if the developers put any effort at all into it. I don't want someone other poor bastard to be denied his or her romances in a computer game. It's just that I don't want to deal with them myself. Different people want different things from their gaming experience. I'm just advocating for my own desires.

 

That said, I don't demand realism, merely believability. I won't hate romances if they're not in my face all the time. In fact, under some circumstances, I would even 'love' romance in the game. Hell, I had no sexual desire for Dak'kon in PS:T. However, if the devs had put in the opportunity for the Nameless One to develop a romantic relationship with someone he already knew intimately on a personal level, I don't think I would have hated it. I was kind of goofing around about Anna before, but I did enjoy the purely sexual tension. It didn't need to be resolved by an actual sexual encounter. The hint heat, the arousal of physical interplay between the characters sufficed. I'm not goofing around at all when I say, have the character develop a romantic involvement with... whatever the she was in Pillars... the sentient chair that ran the keep. Sure, achieving sexual satisfaction for yourself might be hard, and damned near impossible for a talking chair, but it could provide possible levity on one arm and perhaps have tidbits of meaningful dialogue on the other. I was mostly serious about the Devil of Caroc. Have a romance with her. The situation need not be realistic, and even make it idealized to some extent, but do it with art. Do it with vision. It's not chopping down trees. It's hand carving furniture. Or have a more or less conventional romance with between to heterosexual adults. Just use a little finesse is all. Good better best, forget romance and have flirtation that has that the piquancy of a purely sexual relationship and have the possibility of it becoming a real loving relationship over time.

 

It's not that I hate the idea of romance. I just think of the game as a fine dish and the romance, if there need be one, should be crafted with just as much skill. Don't serve a wonderful meal on your splendid china and then have the guests eat it with plastic sporks.

Edited February 2, 2017 by Eumaios

[JerekKruger]

Well, nothing new, I guess. With how frequently it was asked everywhere they're ignoring it on purpose.

 

Possibly, but not necessarily. I asked a question shortly after the "let's turn to Twitch chat for questions" phase of the stream began and it was one of the last questions answer. There were hundreds of questions after mine that they didn't get to.

[ShadySands]

Just alternate romance and no romance stretch goals and see who wants it more

[Eumaios]

Just alternate romance and no romance stretch goals and see who wants it more

I might actually scrape up some cash to pledge in that case.

[LordCrash]

Essentially what you need is a romantic entanglement that doesn't exist simply to "win".

Yes - and no. The core issue I have with this whole topic is that it is so hugely dominated by such a narrow view on a very complex and actually broad issue of human life. I'd really love to have as many aspect of human relationships covered as possible, especially the important ones most people really care about. Love and mutual affection is one such aspect. So is friendship. Or rivalry. Or betrayal. Or dependence. Or domination. Or disdain. Or a combination of various elements in various forms, following a dynamic development.

 

But everything some people seem to want is still a white knight in shiny armor who kills the bad guy and rescues the damsel in distress...

 

Although - driving back the snarky tone a bit - I've made the experience, especially with Bioware and Witcher games, that there is one particular group of gamers who are really heavily invested into these "romance plots" - women. You almost can't find more dedicated supporters for "romances" in RPGs than women. That might sound surprising at first because many romances in video games seem to cater to the male nerd's dream, so to say, establishing the power fantasy of the white knight above. So why do they find so many firm supporters in women? I think one answer to this question is actually one that many men don't want to hear: because it's one of the few elements in modern AAA video games and RPGs in particular that is not at all about open violence and war but simply about love and affection. In my personal opinion I'm pretty convinced that many firm supporters of Bioware's romance plots - and especially many women among them - would love to see a broader approach to human relationships and aspects of love (and hate). They love these things and the only reason why they demand romances is that this is the only known element in modern RPGs that caters to this wish to play more games that explore topics that are not about combat, war and fighting, but about human relationships. And yes, many people and especially women (often secretly) long for consuming clichéd relationship stories and clichéd love stories where in the end the hero always gets their love interest. If you only looked at which novels are read by men and women respectively, you'd probably see the pattern (on a general scale of course).

 

So ironically a more "mature" game like PoE is actually catering even more to men than to women by making it even more "serious" and more focused on combat and on pondering on high-flying philosphical context and by taking out love and reducing personal emotions and close relationships. The latest Bioware games might look a bit immature to some people (especially around here) and they might disdain their simplified romances (I'm not without guilt here either) but they at least achieved to interest quite some women into video games and RPGs (Witcher 3 did the same, by the way, there is huge fanbase of women for the White Wolf). And that's a good thing imo. Women (and all kind of different people) should be allowed to have fun with "our" video games as well and we should be open for their interests. If anything we should be curious about getting to know more about their perspective on various topics and how it could enrich the experience. I'd like if Obsidian reconsidered their approach to close personal relationships and put a bigger focus on that. Not necessarily by including romance plots like Bioware but by acknowledging that many people - and women - would like to have a more personal, emotional experience that offers a "good time" and that offers ways to bond with the characters, be it due to friendship, due to love or due to complex, troubled but somehow working relationships. In the end, most people want to experience something they can't have in real life - a happy end.

Edited February 2, 2017 by LordCrash

[jbrigsby]

I'm a yes for romance or anything that adds more complexity to your relationships with your companions. It doesn't necessarily have to be romantic, but it could be.

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I think the romances and extra companion interactions that were added to Baldur's Gate II were one of the things that helped elevate that game from Baldur's Gate. I think it could do the same thing for Pillars.

[Micamo]

You know what I think would be cool?

 

If the Watcher was canon Aro-Ace and this was something the player couldn't change.

 

As far as I know no RPG has ever had an explicitly canon Aro-Ace protagonist before, so this could be a really cool first.

[Andraste]

You know what I think would be cool?

 

If the Watcher was canon Aro-Ace and this was something the player couldn't change.

 

As far as I know no RPG has ever had an explicitly canon Aro-Ace protagonist before, so this could be a really cool first.

 

I'm not sure how that would fit in with the Watcher's ability to hire prostitutes in POE1. (Although I guess you could headcanon that the Watcher was just trying it out and decided it wasn't for them?)

[Micamo]

 

You know what I think would be cool?

 

If the Watcher was canon Aro-Ace and this was something the player couldn't change.

 

As far as I know no RPG has ever had an explicitly canon Aro-Ace protagonist before, so this could be a really cool first.

 

I'm not sure how that would fit in with the Watcher's ability to hire prostitutes in POE1. (Although I guess you could headcanon that the Watcher was just trying it out and decided it wasn't for them?)

 

 

Yeah you'd sorta have to, or maybe say that the Watcher was somehow aware of the metagame stat boosts and was only doing it for that reason.

 

There's also the problem of Iovara, but if you can be a different gender in a past life, why can't you be a different orientation too?

[LordCrash]

What's "aro ace"?

[JerekKruger]

What's "aro ace"?

I had to look it up: it means aromantic and asexual.

 

I don't have a problem with a game being designed with its protagonist being asexual, but I don't think it's a good idea for Deadfire. A big part of IE style games is that you are given a lot of choice in what your character is, and I think this should extend to not forcing a particular sexuality on the player.

[Blarghagh]

Tumblr slang for aromantic/asexual. Everything's gotta have a cool tumblr nickname now, despite the fact it makes it look like a fad instead of something real and means tons of people will take it less seriously.

 

I don't think the Watcher should be canon "aro ace" because there should be no canon watcher in the first place. It's a roleplaying game where you make your own character. Their worldview and development should be up to the player. A game with a set lead character established as such could be interesting, but not PoE.