One Word - Multiclassing!

[Yonjuro]

 

The sweet spots seem to be  16/8 and 12/12, which correspond to lvls 15/3 and 9/9. I'm not sure if 18/0 would really be better than 17/1.

 

Unless there will be some epic feats or specializations, or we'll be getting access to next tier spells at even levels, 17/1 is indeed likely to be better than 18/0 in majority of cases.

Also there is one more sweet spot at 14+10 power_level, which corresponds to 12/6 lvl split

 

Although it's also very important:

- at what levels exactly will we be getting some key spells and abilities (think Dragon Thrashed, Sacred Immolation, Shining Beacon, Minor Avatar, Kalakoth's Minor Blights, etc)

- and how the damage will scale with source_points.

 

 

Agreed!

Thanks for pointing it out, but I saw the bonus of the 12/6 lvl split, I just thought the ratio is somehow really strange and doesn't look appealing for builds.

E.g. 9/9 seems to give the broadest access to abilities, while 17/1 and 15/3 are relatively low sacrifices in the first class compared to what you get in the second. 12/6 seems like a bad trade-off - looks like you should focus on the first class, but you are only a bit better than the second one. Dunno.

 

You're right about the key spells and abilities though, they will certainly be the deciding factor. And in case they decided for DnD2 multiclassing, this whole table is moot anyway, since this would imply we end up with 9/9.

 

 

 

 Josh may come up with some kind of bonus for unused virtual points in order to not disadvantage pure classes and to avoid sweet spots. We'll learn more soon.

[SaruNi]

One thing the old BG games lacked was the ability to multiclass Barbarians, Monks, Bards, Paladin, Sorcerors---some of the classes I most wanted to multi-class with! (Especially because I love the speed boost.) So I'm looking forward to Barb/Monk/Chanter/Paladin/Cipher multiclassing....

[Gromnir]

 

until the beta am not gonna say whether poe2 multiclass is good or bad, but as josh clear identified the same problems o' multiclass as we did earlier in the thread, and recognizing how he has at least considered how to deal with such problems, am gonna be optimistic with some caution.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the more we see multiclassing and hear 'bout all the changes to poe mechanics, the more certain we is regarding the need for a more encompassing beta.  again, we don't want more content such as quests and locations, but find some way to give the beta folks access to as much o' the full range o' talents and abilities as possible and let folks try and break the game in beta.  

Edited February 3, 2017 by Gromnir

[Taurus]

 

Josh revealed some more information about multiclassing

I really like where it is going)

 

Although (basing on the information we currently have) it seems Josh wasn't completely sincere on the "multiclassing ins't mean to be a no brainer")

A level 18 fighter would have 54 discipline points and 18 virtual.

A level 17 fighter and 1 level in rogue would have 52 discipline points and 20 guile.

 

If next-tier spells and abilities will be available at the odd levels (like it was in PoE1: Dragon Trashed on lvl 9, Sacred Immolation on 13, and so on), sacrificing 18th level would actually be a no brainer

 

The easy way to think of it is that Power Source advances on scale 0-2=0, 3-5=1, 6-8=2, etc. It's not a linear progression, but it is tuned to produce the outcomes that we want.

Cannot wait to learn more details

Playing with NWN2 builds, trying to find the most optimal combination was so much fun)

 

 

True.

 

However, I wonder how the atributtes like Constitution, Acuracy, etc... will scale .

 

Will they be mixed as your power lvls, take in account you main class, or what?

[Ganrich]

I think Josh will probably get pretty close to balancing this out, but I doubt they will keep certain combos from reigning supreme. However, ensuring that everything is at least viable should be possible. I'm pretty excited about it, and I think it's a great addition. I really like they are putting effort into new class names when you Multiclass too. It makes sense.

[Gromnir]

I think Josh will probably get pretty close to balancing this out, but I doubt they will keep certain combos from reigning supreme. However, ensuring that everything is at least viable should be possible. I'm pretty excited about it, and I think it's a great addition. I really like they are putting effort into new class names when you Multiclass too. It makes sense.

it's a single-player game, so why not let let the player name their multiclass combo?  when first taking a second class, player gets the option to name their new combo.  sure, a Black Isle Bastard would still be a fighter/rogue for purposes o' the game and any content, but am thinking the folks best able to come up with an appropriate name for a combo is the player.

 

just a thought.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ganrich]

 

I think Josh will probably get pretty close to balancing this out, but I doubt they will keep certain combos from reigning supreme. However, ensuring that everything is at least viable should be possible. I'm pretty excited about it, and I think it's a great addition. I really like they are putting effort into new class names when you Multiclass too. It makes sense.

 

it's a single-player game, so why not let let the player name their multiclass combo?  when first taking a second class, player gets the option to name their new combo.  sure, a Black Isle Bastard would still be a fighter/rogue for purposes o' the game and any content, but am thinking the folks best able to come up with an appropriate name for a combo is the player.

 

just a thought.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I agree, but it gives each combo an identity. Even if only superficially. I'd be fine if they let us name them, but it'll keep people from just saying fighter/Wizard. Which sounds silly. Where as Battlemage doesn't. I don't know. I could go either way on it. I'm happy either way I think.

[Yonjuro]

...

 

 Josh may come up with some kind of bonus for unused virtual points in order to not disadvantage pure classes and to avoid sweet spots. We'll learn more soon.

 

 

 

 Nothing about this so far. Now that I think a bit more about this, it could have the undesirable side effect of causing your class abilities to become weaker after a level up. E.g. 17/0 leveling up to 17/1 can cause your primary class (the class you have 17 levels in) abilities to become weaker.

 

 Can anybody think of a scheme that doesn't do that? I suppose it would require a steep power curve where an extra level in one class is as good as several lower levels in a second class or treating a max level single class in a special way.

 

 Josh, if you read this, how will you prevent a 17/1 multi-class from being strictly better than a level 18 single class?

[Ganrich]

 

...

 

Josh may come up with some kind of bonus for unused virtual points in order to not disadvantage pure classes and to avoid sweet spots. We'll learn more soon.

 

 

Nothing about this so far. Now that I think a bit more about this, it could have the undesirable side effect of causing your class abilities to become weaker after a level up. E.g. 17/0 leveling up to 17/1 can cause your primary class (the class you have 17 levels in) abilities to become weaker.

 

Can anybody think of a scheme that doesn't do that? I suppose it would require a steep power curve where an extra level in one class is as good as several lower levels in a second class or treating a max level single class in a special way.

 

Josh, if you read this, how will you prevent a 17/1 multi-class from being strictly better than a level 18 single class?

Boss Talents with level restrictions might do it. That way the level 18 gets something that is specifically better. This wouldn't be unlike Epic Feats in 3.5. If the level cap is raised to 20, and I think someone was saying they saw it instead of doubling VO earlier when they did the update, then those feats could require level 20 instead. Basically put the talent at the level cap, and have one (or a few if they can manage it) for each class. That's all I got.

 

Edit: I mean class level restrictions vs PC level. It could use the power source: Discipline, or whatever.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Ganrich

[illathid]

 

I think Josh will probably get pretty close to balancing this out, but I doubt they will keep certain combos from reigning supreme. However, ensuring that everything is at least viable should be possible. I'm pretty excited about it, and I think it's a great addition. I really like they are putting effort into new class names when you Multiclass too. It makes sense.

it's a single-player game, so why not let let the player name their multiclass combo?  when first taking a second class, player gets the option to name their new combo.  sure, a Black Isle Bastard would still be a fighter/rogue for purposes o' the game and any content, but am thinking the folks best able to come up with an appropriate name for a combo is the player.

 

just a thought.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

could be fun if the multiclass name comes up as the default title, but the interface would let you rename it.

[Ganrich]

Actually, I just thought of this. Getting definitive names for the class combos is a better idea. That way, if you run across any multiclassed Ogre no-names it will say "Ogre Battlemage" over their heads and instantly let you know what it's capable of. It's a smart move. They could still let you rename the class, but they need to give them definitive names.

[dunehunter]

Yeah totally agree that we shall be allowed to rename the title, as from a role playing aspect.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

...

 

Josh may come up with some kind of bonus for unused virtual points in order to not disadvantage pure classes and to avoid sweet spots. We'll learn more soon.

 

Nothing about this so far. Now that I think a bit more about this, it could have the undesirable side effect of causing your class abilities to become weaker after a level up. E.g. 17/0 leveling up to 17/1 can cause your primary class (the class you have 17 levels in) abilities to become weaker.

 

Can anybody think of a scheme that doesn't do that? I suppose it would require a steep power curve where an extra level in one class is as good as several lower levels in a second class or treating a max level single class in a special way.

 

Josh, if you read this, how will you prevent a 17/1 multi-class from being strictly better than a level 18 single class?

Boss Talents with level restrictions might do it. That way the level 18 gets something that is specifically better. This wouldn't be unlike Epic Feats in 3.5. If the level cap is raised to 20, and I think someone was saying they saw it instead of doubling VO earlier when they did the update, then those feats could require level 20 instead. Basically put the talent at the level cap, and have one (or a few if they can manage it) for each class. That's all I got.

 

Edit: I mean class level restrictions vs PC level. It could use the power source: Discipline, or whatever.

 

 

 That could work. It might restrict the leveling of future games (e.g. if happens at 20, then a future game with a level cap of 21 has the same 17/1 vs. 18 issue), assuming that having a consistent system across games is a goal.

[Ganrich]

Well, I doubt we will see a game that starts mid-level (maybe a post campaign xpac). They know that it will decrease their audience, and wont do it. I'm pretty sure of that. They also seem to be increasing the level cap by 2 each time. So I doubt that will be an issue. They went from 12, to 14, to 16, and now 18.

[evilcat]

I like what i seen, good job on giving each class own mana pool. Fixed titles are ok for me.

It is also very impressive that they effort for combo names. Nice touch.

[rjshae]

Multi-classing is overrated.

[L4wlight]

[Shadenuat]

What's the disadvantage of making everyone for example a 1st level fighter/15 else with 20 extra beginning points of accuracy and regen? Are class abilities gonna get nerfed then?

[Gromnir]

What's the disadvantage of making everyone for example a 1st level fighter/15 else with 20 extra beginning points of accuracy and regen? Are class abilities gonna get nerfed then?

not nerfed, but scaled.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Grimo88]

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid. 

[kirottu]

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid.

Then don't take any druid levels for Edér. Problem solved.

[Micamo]

Doing some quick math with the revealed math on power levels today, the sweet spots are as follows:

 

17/1, 16/2 - 9th level powers in primary, 4th level powers in secondary

14/4, 13/5 - 8th level powers in primary, 5th level powers in secondary

11/7, 10/8 - 7th level powers in primary, 6th level powers in secondary

 

All other combinations are either isomorphic to these, or give you lower-level powers in one class. (9/9 for example gives you only 6th-level powers in both classes, but you get 7th in your main class if you take 10/8 or 11/7 and still get 6th-level powers in your secondary. The only benefit 9/9 gives you is slightly better scaling on your secondary class powers, but is this really worth losing an entire power level?)

[Doppelschwert]

Doing some quick math with the revealed math on power levels today, the sweet spots are as follows:

 

17/1, 16/2 - 9th level powers in primary, 4th level powers in secondary

14/4, 13/5 - 8th level powers in primary, 5th level powers in secondary

11/7, 10/8 - 7th level powers in primary, 6th level powers in secondary

 

All other combinations are either isomorphic to these, or give you lower-level powers in one class. (9/9 for example gives you only 6th-level powers in both classes, but you get 7th in your main class if you take 10/8 or 11/7 and still get 6th-level powers in your secondary. The only benefit 9/9 gives you is slightly better scaling on your secondary class powers, but is this really worth losing an entire power level?)

 

Without checking, looks about right.

I guess the important thing to remember is not only what those endgame levels are but also how do you get there. I guess there will be talents that improve on existing abilities, so the order might be very important if you want to use your talent slots for specific upgrades and even necessitate a non-optimal split.

 

Also, if they turn out to use the DnD2 progression (where you'd probably just get 2 points for each power source on each level up), this would cease to be an issue. I'm almost willing to prefer this actually, since it'd probably result in a better balanced game.

[Aramintai]

I can already see it now - a whole new Builds section of this forum with tons of overpowered builds doing ridiculous damage. These multiclassing&subclasses features seem like a very complicated endeavor that will never be properly balanced.

[Aotrs Commander]

Doing some quick math with the revealed math on power levels today, the sweet spots are as follows:

 

17/1, 16/2 - 9th level powers in primary, 4th level powers in secondary

14/4, 13/5 - 8th level powers in primary, 5th level powers in secondary

11/7, 10/8 - 7th level powers in primary, 6th level powers in secondary

 

All other combinations are either isomorphic to these, or give you lower-level powers in one class. (9/9 for example gives you only 6th-level powers in both classes, but you get 7th in your main class if you take 10/8 or 11/7 and still get 6th-level powers in your secondary. The only benefit 9/9 gives you is slightly better scaling on your secondary class powers, but is this really worth losing an entire power level?)

 

Bear in mind that it was stated that it may not actually be 3+1, that was just the example we were given. I believe it was stated the real values will be somewhat more scalar - presumably to remove or at least  migitate, said sweet spots.

 

Edit: sorry, if I understood corrctly, the maths was done on the latest update, whch I didn't get before I made that post...

Edited February 3, 2017 by Aotrs Commander