Trump united the world...

[Malcador]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSrEEDQgFc8

Reminds me to buy Yes, Minister on DVD

[Gromnir]

(video)

from august 2016

 

"ever seen a car accident just before it happens?  as often as not, the first indication you got that a car accident happened is the sound o' car horns immediate followed by the loud crash as two or more cars slam into each other with bone shattering force.  but sometimes you actual see the accident unfold.  you see the guy pull his el camino into the bike lane and accelerate into an intersection in spite o' the fact that he gots a red light.  is literal nothing you can do to stop the guy, but you know what is gonna happen.  you cringe. your whole body tenses. you await the crash.  trump is the guy in the el camino, but the accident is happening in slow motion and can easily be stopped.  inexplicably, more than 1/3 o' the americans watching the developing accident is cheering trump forward. "

 

and we would recommend elmer gantry as an additional dvd purchase, and not just 'cause shirley jones were smokin' hot. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Ben No.3]

 

So, working for personal profit for a private company vs working for the state is a detail and insignificant? That's only the fundamental difference between communism and capitalism, but hey, just a detail.

Yawn!

I sorry I forgot I need to actually write "yawn" because you cannot see all the normal, educated people yawning reading your rants trying to distance yourself from your fellow socialists.

So to cut the long story short I will call the new rule of forum placed by TN.

Cite actually academic sources, say Harvard maybe, or Oxford to back up your claim. Otherwise don't bother.

True, actually. In communism, people aren't employed by the state. In fact, there is no state. As a source, I recommend you reading Das Kapital. Since it is very long and not all too interesting to read, you can also read the communist manifesto, which is only thirty pages. In fact, you only need chapter one and two, if you really wanna boil things down.

[Elerond]

 

It seems that Trump will be most successful, beloved, and benevolent leader in history of universe. If you don't believe me now, you will believe me when you see the alternative facts say so after his first term of many to come. Because it will also be alternative fact that person can be president more than two terms, no need to change law even. It is alternative fact.

[213374U]

But actually, he thought as he re-adjusted the Ministry of Plenty's figures, it was not even forgery. It was merely the substitution of one piece of nonsense for another. Most of the material that you were dealing with had no connection with anything in the real world, not even the kind of connection that is contained in a direct lie. Statistics were just as much a fantasy in their original version as in their rectified version. A great deal of the time you were expected to make them up out of your head. For example, the Ministry of Plenty's forecast had estimated the output of boots for the quarter at one-hundred-and-forty-five million pairs. The actual output was given as sixty-two millions. Winston, however, in rewriting the forecast, marked the figure down to fifty-seven millions, so as to allow for the usual claim that the quota had been overfulfilled. In any case, sixty-two millions was no nearer the truth than fifty-seven millions, or than one-hundred-and-forty-five millions. Very likely no boots had been produced at all. Likelier still, nobody knew how many had been produced, much less cared. All one knew was that every quarter astronomical numbers of boots were produced on paper, while perhaps half the population of Oceania went barefoot. And so it was with every class of recorded fact, great or small. Everything faded away into a shadow-world in which, finally, even the date of the year had become uncertain.

[Meshugger]

Whatever happened to the mantra of there are no truths or facts, just different narratives? Those were much more simpler times

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

I suppose that reason why most people who voted Trump are not being seen in the streets that much is that they were A) from rural areas, B) have a jo,b so its hard for them to riot for days in city centers xD

 

I though people voted him because they had lost their jobs and he will bring them back.

 

 

I think unemployed vote were marginal, point was that bringing jobs back ofcourse affects middle class and business associated with big companies. eg if you start manufacturing cars, someone have to repair them as well, someone have to insure them, someone have to transport them around etc etc. thats what is creating jobs and benefiting middle class

 

 

But if everybody already has job, why they would need drastic measures to create more of them? Do they plan to bring Mexicans to do the jobs or what?

 

Also car manufacturing don't itself bring repair jobs you need people buying said cars and use them to make repair jobs, and bringing manufacturing job to back to US may rise prices of cars, as manufacturing in US is said to be more expensive than it is in Mexico, and higher priced cars usually mean less sold cars, which means less need for repair shops etc. which means less jobs in that sector.

 

If there are more jobs than people, it drives companies to compete for employees -> salary raise -> happy middle class

 

so yes, it can drive price of item in question higher, however you gain more cash as well, and not all items will go up in price or not that much as your salary (in theory at least)

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

I suppose that reason why most people who voted Trump are not being seen in the streets that much is that they were A) from rural areas, B) have a jo,b so its hard for them to riot for days in city centers xD

I though people voted him because they had lost their jobs and he will bring them back.

I think unemployed vote were marginal, point was that bringing jobs back ofcourse affects middle class and business associated with big companies. eg if you start manufacturing cars, someone have to repair them as well, someone have to insure them, someone have to transport them around etc etc. thats what is creating jobs and benefiting middle class

But if everybody already has job, why they would need drastic measures to create more of them? Do they plan to bring Mexicans to do the jobs or what?

 

Also car manufacturing don't itself bring repair jobs you need people buying said cars and use them to make repair jobs, and bringing manufacturing job to back to US may rise prices of cars, as manufacturing in US is said to be more expensive than it is in Mexico, and higher priced cars usually mean less sold cars, which means less need for repair shops etc. which means less jobs in that sector.

If there are more jobs than people, it drives companies to compete for employees -> salary raise -> happy middle class

 

so yes, it can drive price of item in question higher, however you gain more cash as well, and not all items will go up in price or not that much as your salary (in theory at least)

And why exactly wouldn't most industries just replace their employees with machines?

 

Tbh, I see quite a risk here... not enough people to fill all jobs will push forward innovation regarding machines, therefore making ever better machines. If the machines get better, it becomes more profitable to replace employees with machines, leading to maybe more jobs, but not for you.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

Tbh, I see quite a risk here... not enough people to fill all jobs will push forward innovation regarding machines, therefore making ever better machines. If the machines get better, it becomes more profitable to replace employees with machines, leading to maybe more jobs, but not for you.

so, back to the caves or what? You can't stop progress

[Ben No.3]

 

Tbh, I see quite a risk here... not enough people to fill all jobs will push forward innovation regarding machines, therefore making ever better machines. If the machines get better, it becomes more profitable to replace employees with machines, leading to maybe more jobs, but not for you.

so, back to the caves or what? You can't stop progress

Use the machines to benefit all people equally, not just the owners/shareholders of the company that owns the machines.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

ah commie talk again, go to North Korea, tell them that way they live is because they could loose job if they move out from 19th century

[Ben No.3]

ah commie talk again, go to North Korea, tell them that way they live is because they could loose job if they move out from 19th century

Well, I believe that if the people are to receive all output, then the people (not the government!) should also own the machines and direct the way of their output. So democracy instead of dictatorship.

 

In an ideal world, we work for personal fulfilment. The financial worries are covered by the economy, which is essentially but a motor to supply all people. The point of a job should not be self sustainment, but rather personal enjoyment and the experience off doing something that is truly meaningful.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Barothmuk]

Actually choosing 9 hours of frivolous labour over automation.

 

I can't wait for Trump to bomb us back to the stone age.

[Ben No.3]

Actually choosing 9 hours of frivolous labour over automation.

 

I can't wait for Trump to bomb us back to the stone age.

Automation is the biggest chance we have. If we give all the "bad", so essentially the alienating jobs to machines, it is fir us to follow our true desires. And don't worry about the economy, the machines got it.

[Meshugger]

Actually choosing 9 hours of frivolous labour over automation.

 

I can't wait for Trump to bomb us back to the stone age.

 

Perhaps labour will fall, but man will never stop working.

[Chilloutman]

 

ah commie talk again, go to North Korea, tell them that way they live is because they could loose job if they move out from 19th century

Well, I believe that if the people are to receive all output, then the people (not the government!) should also own the machines and direct the way of their output. So democracy instead of dictatorship.

 

In an ideal world, we work for personal fulfilment. The financial worries are covered by the economy, which is essentially but a motor to supply all people. The point of a job should not be self sustainment, but rather personal enjoyment and the experience off doing something that is truly meaningful.

 

Ehmm, if you have company, you own the machines, you receive all output ( - taxes) and you direct the way of their outputs. So what are you talking about?

 

If you believe in your utopia noone is stopping you to buy a machine, work it, and then give output to whoever you want. So your only problem are people who will not do it. So you need to dictate what they will do with output of their machines. Sad

 

point of job was self sustain for thousand of years. I don't understand where you find out that it should be free time activity....

 

Nothing you just wrote makes any sense

[Ben No.3]

 

 

ah commie talk again, go to North Korea, tell them that way they live is because they could loose job if they move out from 19th century

Well, I believe that if the people are to receive all output, then the people (not the government!) should also own the machines and direct the way of their output. So democracy instead of dictatorship.

 

In an ideal world, we work for personal fulfilment. The financial worries are covered by the economy, which is essentially but a motor to supply all people. The point of a job should not be self sustainment, but rather personal enjoyment and the experience off doing something that is truly meaningful.

Ehmm, if you have company, you own the machines, you receive all output ( - taxes) and you direct the way of their outputs. So what are you talking about?

 

If you believe in your utopia noone is stopping you to buy a machine, work it, and then give output to whoever you want. So your only problem are people who will not do it. So you need to dictate what they will do with output of their machines. Sad

 

point of job was self sustain for thousand of years. I don't understand where you find out that it should be free time activity....

 

Nothing you just wrote makes any sense

If the machines (and the land) are owned by the people, in other words, if they are public goods rather than private, then their output logicallly also belongs to everyone, and in equal parts.

 

So if the machines work to sustain everyone equally rather than to generate profit, then the individual does not need to take care of sustaining himself... society does that already.

 

He is therefore free to follow his passion, free of any form of financial worries.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Ben No.3

[Blarghagh]

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

ah commie talk again, go to North Korea, tell them that way they live is because they could loose job if they move out from 19th century

Well, I believe that if the people are to receive all output, then the people (not the government!) should also own the machines and direct the way of their output. So democracy instead of dictatorship.

 

In an ideal world, we work for personal fulfilment. The financial worries are covered by the economy, which is essentially but a motor to supply all people. The point of a job should not be self sustainment, but rather personal enjoyment and the experience off doing something that is truly meaningful.

 

Ehmm, if you have company, you own the machines, you receive all output ( - taxes) and you direct the way of their outputs. So what are you talking about?

 

If you believe in your utopia noone is stopping you to buy a machine, work it, and then give output to whoever you want. So your only problem are people who will not do it. So you need to dictate what they will do with output of their machines. Sad

 

point of job was self sustain for thousand of years. I don't understand where you find out that it should be free time activity....

 

Nothing you just wrote makes any sense

 

If the machines (and the land) are owned by the people, in other words, if they are public goods rather than private, then their output logicallly also belongs to everyone, and in equal parts.

 

So if the machines work to sustain everyone equally rather than to generate profit, then the individual does not need to take care of sustaining himself... society does that already.

 

He is therefore free to follow his passion, free of any form of financial worries.

 

I have strong urge to vomit now xD

 

again, what will you do with people who will not hand out their private property and who is stopping you to give freebees of your work to people today?

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

ah commie talk again, go to North Korea, tell them that way they live is because they could loose job if they move out from 19th century

Well, I believe that if the people are to receive all output, then the people (not the government!) should also own the machines and direct the way of their output. So democracy instead of dictatorship.

 

In an ideal world, we work for personal fulfilment. The financial worries are covered by the economy, which is essentially but a motor to supply all people. The point of a job should not be self sustainment, but rather personal enjoyment and the experience off doing something that is truly meaningful.

Ehmm, if you have company, you own the machines, you receive all output ( - taxes) and you direct the way of their outputs. So what are you talking about?

 

If you believe in your utopia noone is stopping you to buy a machine, work it, and then give output to whoever you want. So your only problem are people who will not do it. So you need to dictate what they will do with output of their machines. Sad

 

point of job was self sustain for thousand of years. I don't understand where you find out that it should be free time activity....

 

Nothing you just wrote makes any sense

If the machines (and the land) are owned by the people, in other words, if they are public goods rather than private, then their output logicallly also belongs to everyone, and in equal parts.

 

So if the machines work to sustain everyone equally rather than to generate profit, then the individual does not need to take care of sustaining himself... society does that already.

 

He is therefore free to follow his passion, free of any form of financial worries.

I have strong urge to vomit now xD

 

again, what will you do with people who will not hand out their private property and who is stopping you to give freebees of your work to people today?

A very small group of people exploit a rather large group. No, obviously they won't want to give it away. But oh well... democracy. (Insert evil laughter here)

 

No one stops them. But our system strongly discourages it, so why should they?

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

I suppose that reason why most people who voted Trump are not being seen in the streets that much is that they were A) from rural areas, B) have a jo,b so its hard for them to riot for days in city centers xD

 

I though people voted him because they had lost their jobs and he will bring them back.

 

 

I think unemployed vote were marginal, point was that bringing jobs back ofcourse affects middle class and business associated with big companies. eg if you start manufacturing cars, someone have to repair them as well, someone have to insure them, someone have to transport them around etc etc. thats what is creating jobs and benefiting middle class

 

 

But if everybody already has job, why they would need drastic measures to create more of them? Do they plan to bring Mexicans to do the jobs or what?

 

Also car manufacturing don't itself bring repair jobs you need people buying said cars and use them to make repair jobs, and bringing manufacturing job to back to US may rise prices of cars, as manufacturing in US is said to be more expensive than it is in Mexico, and higher priced cars usually mean less sold cars, which means less need for repair shops etc. which means less jobs in that sector.

 

If there are more jobs than people, it drives companies to compete for employees -> salary raise -> happy middle class

 

so yes, it can drive price of item in question higher, however you gain more cash as well, and not all items will go up in price or not that much as your salary (in theory at least)

 

 

But if already higher salaries go even higher, then those product prices rise even more. But it also means that companies have less money to put in other sectors, which would mean that in them jobs or salaries are going down. Because when US companies bring back their manufacturing jobs to US they don't bring new money to US economy, because money they make from manufacturing their products in Mexico and China already is part of US economy, meaning that when you lower amount profit they can make from manufacturing goods you lower amount money they can put in other sectors. Which means like I said that people that do manufacturing jobs may see increase in salaries and jobs, but in other sectors workers will see decrease in salaries and jobs. Except if US government will take loan and give that as compensation for companies that bring their jobs back so that there is more money to go around, but even that may not be enough as those manufacturing products are also sold in other countries, where those new higher prices may significantly lower amount of sold products as there will be cheaper products in market from their own companies.

[Chilloutman]

But if already higher salaries go even higher, then those product prices rise even more. But it also means that companies have less money to put in other sectors, which would mean that in them jobs or salaries are going down. Because when US companies bring back their manufacturing jobs to US they don't bring new money to US economy, because money they make from manufacturing their products in Mexico and China already is part of US economy, meaning that when you lower amount profit they can make from manufacturing goods you lower amount money they can put in other sectors. Which means like I said that people that do manufacturing jobs may see increase in salaries and jobs, but in other sectors workers will see decrease in salaries and jobs. Except if US government will take loan and give that as compensation for companies that bring their jobs back so that there is more money to go around, but even that may not be enough as those manufacturing products are also sold in other countries, where those new higher prices may significantly lower amount of sold products as there will be cheaper products in market from their own companies.

Well i am not economist but I disagree with you on this and it seems each of us thinks he is correct so I will end this with saying 'we can agree that we disagree'

[Chilloutman]

A very small group of people exploit a rather large group. No, obviously they won't want to give it away. But oh well... democracy. (Insert evil laughter here)

 

No one stops them. But our system strongly discourages it, so why should they?

who is discouraging you to give away your stuff? Why are you still talking about 'them'? (well I suppose your family may say you are idiot but still)

 

again, lets say I have business with 10 employees, how you going to 'convince' me to give it up?

[Ben No.3]

 

A very small group of people exploit a rather large group. No, obviously they won't want to give it away. But oh well... democracy. (Insert evil laughter here)

 

No one stops them. But our system strongly discourages it, so why should they?

who is discouraging you to give away your stuff? Why are you still talking about 'them'? (well I suppose your family may say you are idiot but still)

 

again, lets say I have business with 10 employees, how you going to 'convince' me to give it up?

What kind of business do you have? This is important.

 

And I'm not asking you to give it up, by no means. I encourage you to work harder in fact. But I ask you to change your motivations: work for te people, not for the profit.

[Gfted1]

^Do you have a job? In what ways do you contribute to your family or society? I mean, besides all these great ideas.