Help Designing a Melee Cipher Build

[Boeroer]

Dual torches?
 

No, wait: torches have an innate 10% burnung lash and you can enchant them with the usual +25% burning lash on top. The base damage is really bad though and the speed is average only. Never tested this in a real game, but it sounds fun. 

[Elric Galad]

My current plan:

 

Reach cipher, boreal dwarf

 

Mig 12

Dex 16

Con 10

Per 16

Int 16

Res 8

 

Weapons of choice : Tall grass & Twin Stings (Tidefall as a backup)

I'm quite surprised to be the first to speak about Tall Grass ^^

Some lowish armor

 

Draining Whip

Biting Whip

Two handed style

WF soldier

Interrupting blow

Superior Deflection

Sneak attack

Quickswitch (for alpha and beta shots with twin stings)

[QuiteGoneJin]

"Five wagons....."

[JerekKruger]

I've just carefully reread all the replies in the thread and now know for certain that either dual wielding, a two-hander, a reach weapon, or a shield is best. Damn it people, why can't you all agree

 

At the moment I am tending towards using a weapon and (small) shield. Precisely which weapon will probably depend on aesthetics and thematic considerations, plus of course effectiveness. 

 

@Eric Galad: Tall Grass is a great weapon, but it occurs to me that a Cipher can cause Prone easily already with Mind Wave (admittedly the targeting is a little tricky), or indeed Paralyse via Mental Binding. Hence I think I'd prefer a weapon that has some bonus to damage done, like Annihilation, to speed up focus generation, and rely on my powers for crowd control. Meanwhile a Barbarian could be using Tall Grass and knocking multiple enemies prone with each hit.

 

EDIT: a couple of questions on weapons:

1. I notice that Max recommended Purgatory rather than Bittercut. Roughly how do these two stack up against each other? As I understand it, Spirit of Decay adds 20% damage to all attacks made with Bittercut, regardless of which damage type it uses, so we're comparing +20% all the time against +50% on crits. Also Bittercut does two damage types, so is less likely to be completely resisted and more likely to be facing a lower DR than Purgatory. Thoughts?
2. Does the Wounding Enchantment build Focus? Related to this, does Wounding stack with itself and am I right in thinking Wounding is actually best with lower Intellect characters (due to the damage being concentrated into a shorter duration DoT)?

The second question obviously relates to the excellent Drawn in Spring dagger, which it occurs to me would probably be good both with a Shield or dual wielded with itself using the Helwax Mold. I have to say, if I were to use DiS with a shield I think I would have to play with an Orlan or a Dwarf, since I feel it looks weird on larger characters.

Edited January 5, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Boeroer]

Drawn in Spring does good damage because of wounding. But wounding doesn't generate focus. Because of that I would give it to somebody else.

 

I think Bittercut + corrosive lash + with Spirit of Decay is better than Resolution or Purgatory. Mainly because of the two damage types. It's very convenient that you don't need to switch weapons.

That's why I recommended Durance's Staff. It generates focus quite well - and there are enough foes around who have low burn DR. For the others you can take Llawran's Stick.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Awe, is no one else sick of dual sabre/sabre shield builds?

[JerekKruger]

Drawn in Spring does good damage because of wounding. But wounding doesn't generate focus. Because of that I would give it to somebody else.

 

I thought that might be the case. Good to know.

 

I think Bittercut + corrosive lash + with Spirit of Decay is better than Resolution or Purgatory. Mainly because of the two damage types. It's very convenient that you don't need to switch weapons.

That's why I recommended Durance's Staff. It generates focus quite well - and there are enough foes around who have low burn DR. For the others you can take Llawran's Stick.

 

 

I might use Durance's Staff in the early game. After all, I probably won't take a Weapon Focus till after at least the two Whip upgrade talents, and it might be helpful in the early game to poke at people from behind Edér et al.

[JerekKruger]

Awe, is no one else sick of dual sabre/sabre shield builds?

 

I'm not yet set on sabre, but it is hard to resist the temptation of Bittercut and if I go weapon and shield I'll want my weapon to do decent damage.

 

I considered the Novice's Suffering route, but the fist damage there just didn't seem that good, and whilst staves are perfectly good weapons none of the staves in the game is "exciting" if you understand what I mean.

[Dr <3]

I have a dream: Durance staff soulbound item that progress linked to Durance own quest.

Or at least that someone inverts crush-burn in burn-crush...

Edited January 5, 2017 by Dr <3

[JerekKruger]

I have a dream: Durance staff soulbound item that progress linked to Durance own quest.

 

Yeah, when you learn what exactly his staff is, and how it's linked to him, it really makes a lot of sense for it to be Soulbound, and it would get around the fact that the Magran specific talent is for Swords and Arquebuses rather than Staves. I am, however, fairly certain it's never going to be patched in now sadly.

[Braven]

The main reason I like dual-wield is the possibility of double speed-enchanted weapons for very quick attacking.  The speed enchantment of each help each other and stack and you can get two "noble" type ones at the very start of Act 2 (dagger and rapier).  The low recovery time this fighting style allows also lets you react very quickly and switch to something like puppet master or whispers of treason if an enemy decides to charge toward you suddenly.  The cipher is best hitting the low DR trash enemies because their attacks are primarily to gain focus, not take down big, dangerous enemies with weapons; that is what your cipher powers and charm is for.   Fast weapons shine best against low DR enemies (the main argument for two-handers and the "wounding" enchantment is that they are much better against heavily armored enemies).

Edited January 5, 2017 by Braven

[mosspit]

 

Awe, is no one else sick of dual sabre/sabre shield builds?

 

I'm not yet set on sabre, but it is hard to resist the temptation of Bittercut and if I go weapon and shield I'll want my weapon to do decent damage.

 

I considered the Novice's Suffering route, but the fist damage there just didn't seem that good, and whilst staves are perfectly good weapons none of the staves in the game is "exciting" if you understand what I mean.

 

 

If you can, I would strongly suggest you to consider Tidefall. At least bring it out for a test drive.

 

Biting Whip new dmg increase + 2H talent 15% + Apprentice Sneak Attack 15% with the higher base dmg for 2H weapons. In my playthrough, Tidefall was giving me something like 17 focus per swing(and about 10 endurance back) on a char that has 12 base might. For tougher fights, you can also pop a DoAM potion at the start.

[JerekKruger]

 

If you can, I would strongly suggest you to consider Tidefall. At least bring it out for a test drive.

 

Biting Whip new dmg increase + 2H talent 15% + Apprentice Sneak Attack 15% with the higher base dmg for 2H weapons. In my playthrough, Tidefall was giving me something like 17 focus per swing(and about 10 endurance back) on a char that has 12 base might. For tougher fights, you can also pop a DoAM potion at the start.

 

It's certainly a weapon I'm fond of so I'll give it a try. It's not like there's a rush to decide on a weapon. 

[Boeroer]

The speed enchantment of each help each other and stack

This is not the case. The speed enchantment only reduces the recovery time of the particular weapon. You can test this when you exchange one speed weapon with a normal one: the recovery of the first weapon with speed stays the same, the second, normal weapon will have slightly longer recovery.

 

The only exception is Spelltongue which adds a universal attack speed buff on hit.

[MaxQuest]

If you can, I would strongly suggest you to consider Tidefall. At least bring it out for a test drive.

 

Biting Whip new dmg increase + 2H talent 15% + Apprentice Sneak Attack 15% with the higher base dmg for 2H weapons. In my playthrough, Tidefall was giving me something like 17 focus per swing(and about 10 endurance back) on a char that has 12 base might. For tougher fights, you can also pop a DoAM potion at the start.

Tidefall is a great weapon.

But in terms of focus generation Blade of the Endless Paths is still the best 2H option (for cipher), due to the following reasons:

- 5 extra DR penetration will increase your average dps by ~10-20%. (yeah Great Swords have dual damage type, but there is only one single non-boss enemy type that has pierce DR higher than it's slash DR by a value of 5, specifically Rain Blight; as for bosses it's Adra Dragon and Turisulfus, but cipher is not going to come close to them; he will hit and use as focus batteries their minions instead)

- botep has speed enchant, it allows achieving 0-recovery so much easier, and that last extra mile has great increasing returns. Especially if you are going to wear plate armor.

 

Also there is a thing to say about Tidefall's lash. As Boeroer already mentioned: it doesn't generate focus. Also it's best used on a character with maxed Might. Because it scales twice with it. First it takes 25% from your weapon hit (modified by might). And then, being a DoT it get's increased by Might again.

Edited January 6, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

That's why I give it to my priest.

 

Or barb of course. But not Cipher.

 

What about Dragon's Bell? It has 8 DR penetration (and it's burn DR bonus stacks with everything). You can get it quite early and I guess it's a good cipher weapon until you get the BotEP. With Vulnerable Attack and Ryona's Vambraces and Effigy's Resentment: Devil of Caroc you could reach 17 DR bypass. Add Body Attunement and you could ignore 24 DR of a single enemy. Animats, beetles and disabled dragons beware!

[mosspit]

 

If you can, I would strongly suggest you to consider Tidefall. At least bring it out for a test drive.

 

Biting Whip new dmg increase + 2H talent 15% + Apprentice Sneak Attack 15% with the higher base dmg for 2H weapons. In my playthrough, Tidefall was giving me something like 17 focus per swing(and about 10 endurance back) on a char that has 12 base might. For tougher fights, you can also pop a DoAM potion at the start.

Tidefall is a great weapon.

But in terms of focus generation Blade of the Endless Paths is still the best 2H option (for cipher), due to the following reasons:

- 5 extra DR penetration will increase your average dps by ~10-20%. (yeah Great Swords have dual damage type, but there is only one single non-boss enemy type that has pierce DR higher than it's slash DR by a value of 5, specifically Rain Blight; as for bosses it's Adra Dragon and Turisulfus, but cipher is not going to come close to them; he will hit and use as focus batteries their minions instead)

- botep has speed enchant, it allows achieving 0-recovery so much easier, and that last extra mile has great increasing returns. Especially if you are going to wear plate armor.

 

Also there is a thing to say about Tidefall's lash. As Boeroer already mentioned: it doesn't generate focus. Also it's best used on a character with maxed Might. Because it scales twice with it. First it takes 25% from your weapon hit (modified by might). And then, being a DoT it get's increased by Might again.

 

 

Yes, BotEP will probably be a better dps Cipher choice based on what you mentioned. However, I wasn't suggesting Tidefall based on the best dps choice for the OP. I wanted to address the part where OP said his/her Cipher "inevitably spends a significant portion of his combat time taking a nap". That statement mirrors the issue I had when I played a dual wield Cipher, mine was also squishy.

 

Tidefall made my experience of the current melee Cipher and previous vastly different. He had more staying power. In fact, there is a time he could tank an enounter till his HP was in the yellow, but somehow his END was still near full. Also my experience of signature fights is different from yours. Granted that Turisulfus was tough on all my melee except for Pallegina as in they took chunks of dmg when they tried to melee dmg it. But I used my Cipher on all other signature fights in melee (of course after properly buffed with Psychovampiric Shield, Borrowed Instinct, Wild Leech, DM etc).

 

I am just curious, was it really necessary to put down my recommendation for Tidefall in favour of BotEP. I mean you even preemptively raised counter points and then countered them without me raising them in the first place. In any case, I am not forcing my suggestion down OP throat.

Edited January 6, 2017 by mosspit

[JerekKruger]

That's why I give it to my priest.

 

Of Berath? I was playing around with the idea of Berathian Priest using Tidefall and focused on being a Vessel killer. Holy Radiance can do some pretty high damage when maxed out but I wasn't sure if it would benefit from the vessel killer talent (Sanctifier?). Also I noticed that Eyeless Ones are immune to fire which, perhaps wrongly, put me off.

 

What about Dragon's Bell? It has 8 DR penetration (and it's burn DR bonus stacks with everything). You can get it quite early and I guess it's a good cipher weapon until you get the BotEP. With Vulnerable Attack and Ryona's Vambraces and Effigy's Resentment: Devil of Caroc you could reach 17 DR bypass. Add Body Attunement and you could ignore 24 DR of a single enemy. Animats, beetles and disabled dragons beware! 

 

 

 

Interesting. Drake's Bell (Boeroer got an item name wrong  ) is one of those weapons I never end up using, but that additional DR reduction is pretty useful, and Beast Slayer is not bad either.

 

I am, however, somewhat paranoid about single damage type weapons. Are there many enemies of significance that are immune to pierce, or that have significantly higher pierce DR than others (by significantly I guess I mean more than 5 for BotEP and... loads?... for Drake's Bell).

 

 

Yes, BotEP will probably be a better dps Cipher choice based on what you mentioned. However, I wasn't suggesting Tidefall based on the best dps choice for the OP. I wanted to address the part where OP said his/her Cipher "inevitably spends a significant portion of his combat time taking a nap". His statement mirrors the issue I had when I played a dual wield Cipher, mine was also squishy.

 

Tidefall made my experience of the current melee Cipher and previous vastly different. He had more staying power. In fact, there is a time he could tank an enounter till his HP was in the yellow, but somehow his END was still near full. Also my experience of signature fights is different from yours. Granted that Turisulfus was tough on all my melee except for Pallegina as in they took chunks of dmg when they tried to melee dmg it. But I used my Cipher on all other signature fights in melee (of course after properly buffed with Psychovampiric Shield, Borrowed Instinct, Wild Leech, DM etc).

 

I always forget that Tidefall has Draining. In my head it's "Tidefall, is Superb, has Wounding" and I stop there since even if that was all it had, that would be amazing.

 

Interesting that you were able to remain in melee with most of the tougher fights in the game.

[Livegood118]

Draining definitely shouldn't be discounted but I'd prefer not getting hit at all and not getting interrupted than doing a bit more damage but taking more damage and having to drain my endurance back, which of course brings up health concerns again.

 

Maybe purgatory's a good pick?

Edited January 6, 2017 by Livegood118

[mosspit]

I always forget that Tidefall has Draining. In my head it's "Tidefall, is Superb, has Wounding" and I stop there since even if that was all it had, that would be amazing.

 

Interesting that you were able to remain in melee with most of the tougher fights in the game.

I understand your skepticism. I personally have been in situations where the Cipher can't stand toe to toe against bosses in melee, or trying to recover endurance by potting at about the same rate as the bosses are dmging them, leading to situations where focus generation is low and the Cipher becomes deadweight.

 

I am not saying a Cipher should go and tank dragons from the get go. But after some focus farming off weak mobs and getting the buffs up, my Cipher did wound up melee'ing bosses and can handle the collateral dmg that came off my main tank due to leech. This was unexpected for me based on my previous experience. So much so, I did contemplate getting Twin Sting and "cheat by going ranged" for big fights. But in the end I didn't have to. The only legitimate problem was that bog dragon.

Edited January 6, 2017 by mosspit

[JerekKruger]

I wasn't sceptical mosspit, just surprised (and interested).

[MaxQuest]

Yes, BotEP will probably be a better dps Cipher choice based on what you mentioned. However, I wasn't suggesting Tidefall based on the best dps choice for the OP. I wanted to address the part where OP said his/her Cipher "inevitably spends a significant portion of his combat time taking a nap". That statement mirrors the issue I had when I played a dual wield Cipher, mine was also squishy.

Hmm, yes.

But to avoid the emerging issue with low health, it's optimal to let Shod-in-Faith and Silver Tide deal with gradual endurance loss due to enemy AoE or some low-hitting mobs, and to preemptively cc the bigger threats. Yes, yes, I know,.. I am guilty of this. Of preemptiveness.

 

 

Tidefall made my experience of the current melee Cipher and previous vastly different. He had more staying power. In fact, there is a time he could tank an enounter till his HP was in the yellow, but somehow his END was still near full. Also my experience of signature fights is different from yours. Granted that Turisulfus was tough on all my melee except for Pallegina as in they took chunks of dmg when they tried to melee dmg it. But I used my Cipher on all other signature fights in melee (of course after properly buffed with Psychovampiric Shield, Borrowed Instinct, Wild Leech, DM etc).

You are right. Preferred playstyle and the way you approach signature fights, highly affects equipment selection and stat spreads.

I never even casted Wild Leech, and probably used Psychovampiric Shield 2-3 times top. Mostly relying on hard-cc for survival, plus high-dps to make fights shorter and get more value from the aforementioned cc.

 

 

I am just curious, was it really necessary to put down my recommendation for Tidefall in favour of BotEP. I mean you even preemptively raised counter points and then countered them without me raising them in the first place. In any case, I am not forcing my suggestion down OP throat.

Hmm, maybe not. It's just an urge to over-optimize things; followed by a personal preference in giving (sometimes over-)extended responses/replies.

 

P.S. I am not forcing either. As usual one listens to all opinions, but decides what to do himself.

Edited January 6, 2017 by MaxQuest

[JerekKruger]

How do Might and Lashes fit into the damage calculation? I want to calculate how much damage Bittercut will do on a Cipher with Biting Whip, Spirit of Decay, Savage Attacks and a Corrosive Lash. At the moment I have:

 

(11-16)*(1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.4 + 0.2) = 22 - 32

 

For everything other than the Lash and any Might contribution. What I don't know is whether Lashes and Might and additive like everything else, or are mulitplicative (I vaguely remember seeing someone refer to Lashes as multiplicative, and since Dexterity works differently to +Attack Speed I thought Might might also work different to other +Damage sources).

 

EDIT: based on this thread it seems that Lashes are multiplicative whilst Might is additive, so the correct calculation would be:

 

(11-16)*(1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.4 + 0.2 + x)*1.3 ≥ 28.6 - 41.6,

 

where x is the Might modifier (1.3 for the Lash because Spirit of Decay applies to it). Throwing on a quality enchant will push this even higher obviously. That seems like pretty good damage to be doing with a single one handed weapon.

Edited January 6, 2017 by JerekKruger

[mosspit]

@JereKruger:

Heh misunderstood when you said interesting. At this pioint, I don't want to oversell Tidefall for a Cipher beyond it being at least a feasible weapon option. Many other posters with more knowledge of the game made better posts.

 

@MaxQuest:

I agree that playstyle and part make-up is big part in how effective the weapon choice is. You can of course use Silver Tide and Shod in Faith to substitute for the need for Draining to some extent. But that also widen the boundaries of the item selection to other equipment slots and racial abilities. I prefer to just limit it to the weapon selection. I mean one can also use Silver Tide and Shod together with Tidefall depending how much surviability is preferred.

 

There are other minor aspects I took advantage of eg, Tidefall's Wounding to trigger Itumaak's Merciless Companion. But those aspects are too specific to include as a legit reason to recommend Tidefall.

Edited January 6, 2017 by mosspit

[Boeroer]

My first suggestion of using Veteran's Recovery, Belt of Bountiful Healing and Shod-in-Faith, paired with high MIG and INT and using survival's bonus healing is still a good way to become quite sturdy - weapon doesn't matter. If you add Moon Godlike you will definitely only go down because of low health.

Sadly, draining (like from Tidefall) is not working with those mods. If it would I would totally recommend Tidefall for this, too. I love that weapon.

 

Drake's Bell, my bad. I'm so sorry. It also looks really nice. As far as I know there are not too many enemies who are completely immune to pierce damage. The ones that come to mind are flame blightsfor example. Some are a bit resistant to pierce, but 8 points of DR bypass will mitigate that I guess. If I remember correctly, crush and esp. slash damage are more resisted than pierce. And if you meet immune foes you can always switch to a poleaxe. Same style, same weapon focus, different damage type.

 

@JerekKruger: Tidefall with a max MIG priest of Breath: yes, it's a fun concept and it's quite powerful, too. As a MC this priest's Holy Radiance wrecks all vessels except Eyeless - but you can use the Redeemer or Abydon's Hammer against them.

I also added Envenomed Strike, because it's awesome with so much MIG and INT. And the best part: it works like a charm with Cleansing Flame: hit with Tidefall (wounding dot) using Envenomed Strike (poison dot) while Cleansing Flame is on and witness one of the fastest ways to kill a single target.

Aggrandizing & Inspiring Randiance's bonuses will apply to the Radiance's damaging part by the way. Usually I cast Devotions, then Minor Avatar and then Radiance for +10 to all attributes and +10 ACC. Then I go into melee. Usually I do 50+ damage hits without wounding. Wounding does more than 20 on top if I remember correctly. Not bad for a priest. Wounding damage takes some time because of high INT but that makes it possible to cast a Cleansing Flame onto ththe wounding while it still lasts.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Boeroer