The real influence of populism\nationalism in the EU

[Rosbjerg]

It's a product of nationalists always citing 'freedom' 'democracy' or 'food' as the only accepted cultural identity.. No wonder anyone with an ounce of critical thought doesn't or can't

[213374U]

 

 

"It's certainly the year racism and xenophobia came back to the fore. Nationalism with air quotes."

 

Youi still spamming that nonsense? That's not why Trump and Brexit won.

 

If any side is racist, btw, it is the other side.

http://electionado.com/canvas/1479173071893

Another guy blacksplaining white working class. It's like me writing an essay "the third trimester and what to expect".

 

I don't know about blacksplaining (ughhh) but between the annoying Twаtter greatest hits formatting and his extremely flimsy "research" (RT comments that take you to Vox pieces that link to WPost articles...), yeah. He's not going to convince anyone who isn't already convinced. Preaching to the choir much? Kinda allegorical in that sense, heh.

[BruceVC]

Trump is the natural result of identity politics. When you foster a culture of different groups being oppressed due to different -isms, why are you surprised if the majority group suddenly elect someone on these very premises? You reap what you sow, so be thankful that this ideological monster of yours was stopped by loudmouth real-estate builder with a tacky sense aesthetics and not the next Caesar.

 

I can't find the research now, but i read recently that 36% of swedes do not know of anything that characterizes Sweden as swedish, which sounds borderline hysterical. A lot more swedes are in a dire need to travel further outside their bordes to understand how unique they are; And no, getting drunk on the cruise to the Aaland islands doesn't count.

This is an accurate view,  there is no doubt part of the Trump victory was resentment and irritation from white men at being blamed and accused of various things by people who are vociferously SJ supporters

 

So we need to be honest, yes  the whole SJ crusades went too  far in the USA  and we need to change some things 

I want to make a separate post to discuss this and share my perspective  

 

It's a product of nationalists always citing 'freedom' 'democracy' or 'food' as the only accepted cultural identity.. No wonder anyone with an ounce of critical thought doesn't or can't

You have no idea how bad the whole " lets ignore the media ....we know we right "  view became 

 

About 1 week before the election Trump had convinced the majority of his supporters to ignore all media and not give any interviews

 

So you suddenly had millions of Americans getting NO  information except from what Trump told them....it was very concerning 

 

Most of them became like Trump zealots ")

[Chilloutman]

I think you are over reacting a bit. I am pretty sure most Trump voters choose him as lesser evil rather than supporting him directly. As for media, well they are digging their own grave for some time. Being biased was nothing new, but it was too much obvious for some folk to digest it.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

It's a product of nationalists always citing 'freedom' 'democracy' or 'food' as the only accepted cultural identity.

 

You forgot 'Christianity'.

Edited December 5, 2016 by aluminiumtrioxid

[BruceVC]

I think you are over reacting a bit. I am pretty sure most Trump voters choose him as lesser evil rather than supporting him directly. As for media, well they are digging their own grave for some time. Being biased was nothing new, but it was too much obvious for some folk to digest it.

Consider this, even on these forums most of you guys think the media is biased and yet the media is fine 

 

So why is it so hard to believe Trump didn't want his core supporters to be influenced by any negative comments so they ignored all media and the only narrative they received was from Trumps Twitter ...this would lead  to people that are horribly misinformed 

[Chilloutman]

 

I think you are over reacting a bit. I am pretty sure most Trump voters choose him as lesser evil rather than supporting him directly. As for media, well they are digging their own grave for some time. Being biased was nothing new, but it was too much obvious for some folk to digest it.

Consider this, even on these forums most of you guys think the media is biased and yet the media is fine 

 

So why is it so hard to believe Trump didn't want his core supporters to be influenced by any negative comments so they ignored all media and the only narrative they received was from Trumps Twitter ...this would lead  to people that are horribly misinformed

 

Not sure what do you mean, media feeding biased info is misinformation as well so they can hardly argue about it. I think most his supporters were well aware of anti-trump infowar as you could hardly escape it, they just didn't account that info into their decision making. Its not like Trump could force someone to not watch opposite side info, problem was that at that point that info lost all its value once being viewed as propaganda, not to mention that info was usually accusation of any Trump supporter as racist nazi evil person. If I present you a information that will say 'Bruce is bad and all his friends are jerks' how do you think your friends would view at me and information I am presenting?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Loving the butthurt over the return of "nationalism" to politics.

 

As if the likes of Trump and Farage would have had a leg to stand on if the current system wasn't perceived to be rotten to the core.

 

And still the European quasi left (all centrist neo-lib really) blames the other side for their ****up, despite being in power for decades. The demon is always Trump, or Farage, or nationalism or populism or demagoguery... but never "us".

 

Unfortunately, this new breed of nationalism is not the old paternalistic kind - that can actually create value for a state. Its more the old Franco/Mussolini "big businesses know what's best" type wearing the skin of nation based politics. But unlike even Franco or Mussolini, the people pitching the thing are just as powerless against the moneyed elite as their predecessors. So, as yet another representative of the status quo they'll be unable to rescue Europe from its economic quagmire.Therefore, I give them an even shorter shelf life.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Drowsy Emperor]

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

[HoonDing]

"By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?"

 

they have to go back

[BruceVC]

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

You see despite the fact you ignore me you  were right in many respects about this, the EU should not have allowed them in after the first batch

 

Nothing wrong with the initial idea but it would have been best to immediately stop the migrations of all immigrants. The cultures are on opposite sides and its not worth integrating because I don't see the real sustainability or value in doing this

 

But you were more gloomy and negative about them but yes it was a mistake and I would correct i it f I could 

[Volourn]

"You forgot 'Christianity'."

 

You do realize that minorities in the US are heavily into Christianity right? Blacks and Latinos both are into Christianity and Catholicism. It is not a 'white Amerikana' thing.

[Rosbjerg]

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

 

That any convinient lie becomes a truth if enough people are willing to believe it.

 

Of course that said, the problem has always been that we never had a real and constructive talk on how to approach any religious and cultural difference that clashes with established values, opting to either bury our heads in the sand or believe whatever lie we we're told, as long as it targeted those we didn't like.

 

There are huge problems with many religious paradigmes in the modern era, especially for Islam - but to single them out only proves that your are blind to your own.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

Send them to Israel.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Apparently there's more to the migrant smuggling than meets the eye: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-12-04/something-strange-taking-place-mediterranean

[Namutree]

 

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

Send them to Israel.

 

Various pro-Israel politicians and Israeli funded groups were telling us to take them in; it would be hypocritical for Israel not to take them in.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

 

That any convinient lie becomes a truth if enough people are willing to believe it.

 

Of course that said, the problem has always been that we never had a real and constructive talk on how to approach any religious and cultural difference that clashes with established values, opting to either bury our heads in the sand or believe whatever lie we we're told, as long as it targeted those we didn't like.

 

There are huge problems with many religious paradigmes in the modern era, especially for Islam - but to single them out only proves that your are blind to your own.

 

 

The only lie was that the problem ends with Islamic immigration itself, instead of it being just the most prominent byproduct of a (a)national policy that was destructive to begin with.

 

 

I don't fundamentally have a problem with Islam. In my part of the world, we've had relations with it longer than almost any other European state - and from more angles than anyone else - the victor, the defeated, coexistence, both within Islam and outside of it. You name it, we've had it. Ergo we know exactly how the relationship works - everybody keeps to their side of the fence and doesn't pretend to be anything other than what they are. Trade, cooperation, free practicing of faith - sure, 'melting pot' and uncontrolled immigration - hell no.

 

So I will concede that it was a partial untruth that Islam itself is "the problem". Islam is what its always been. The problem is that you want it to be something else (a non-issue) so that you can fill up your aging workforce with people to make your pizza and sweep your streets, going so far as to deceive yourself about how open and tolerant you really are of substantial cultural differences.  And now its a slow motion train wreck, blowing up in your face. 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rosbjerg]

In this case we agree then - most liberals, radicals, socialists and conservatives here (and in most of central Europe) has never really dared to question that assumption - that the problem with their approach was that they were preaching openess and cooperation, but implicitly felt that anyone who didn't 'want to conform' was a problem.

 

I very much ascribe to a live and let live approach and have absolutely no problem living beside any religion, be they Abrahamic or of the more eastern variety - as long as they too accept my choices. If they don't however, then they aren't welcome.. and luckily, most muslims and religious people I've met/or know, were/are  cool with letting me living however I want. Even if they disagree with it.

[Chilloutman]

In this case we agree then - most liberals, radicals, socialists and conservatives here (and in most of central Europe) has never really dared to question that assumption - that the problem with their approach was that they were preaching openess and cooperation, but implicitly felt that anyone who didn't 'want to conform' was a problem.

 

I very much ascribe to a live and let live approach and have absolutely no problem living beside any religion, be they Abrahamic or of the more eastern variety - as long as they too accept my choices. If they don't however, then they aren't welcome.. and luckily, most muslims and religious people I've met/or know, were/are  cool with letting me living however I want. Even if they disagree with it.

I would assume those who you met were educated and have decent social status, those usually of course are not an issue. But I am not going to be convinced that that mass moving from middle east to EU are all well educated wealthy people, and there fanatism find easily plenty of fertile soil

[Rosbjerg]

Not really most were unemployed and/or on the path of becoming criminal.. Worked in a correctional halfway home for a while here in Copenhagen

[BruceVC]

In this case we agree then - most liberals, radicals, socialists and conservatives here (and in most of central Europe) has never really dared to question that assumption - that the problem with their approach was that they were preaching openess and cooperation, but implicitly felt that anyone who didn't 'want to conform' was a problem.

 

I very much ascribe to a live and let live approach and have absolutely no problem living beside any religion, be they Abrahamic or of the more eastern variety - as long as they too accept my choices. If they don't however, then they aren't welcome.. and luckily, most muslims and religious people I've met/or know, were/are  cool with letting me living however I want. Even if they disagree with it.

I respect the way you and other members from the Scandinavian countries defend and at times debate certain SJ points

 

But its an honest and necessary statement to say  " The Islamic world  is dealing with a number of serious and violent changes, the most serious being Islamic Extremism like ISIS " 

[Malcador]

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

Does that really indicate much? A vast swathe of people can still be wrong, no?

[Chilloutman]

Not really most were unemployed and/or on the path of becoming criminal.. Worked in a correctional halfway home for a while here in Copenhagen

And that filled you with confidence that they are going to be decent neighbors?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Criminals make the best neighbors.

[Rosbjerg]

Not really most were unemployed and/or on the path of becoming criminal.. Worked in a correctional halfway home for a while here in Copenhagen

And that filled you with confidence that they are going to be decent neighbors?

 

See, already spinning it to fit your narrative.

 

But decent neighbors? In time yeah, but as I said should they ever decide that I don't have a right to think what I think - then we're not gonna be on friendly terms anymore.

 

But so far the only people who seem to have a vested interest in controlling what I think, are people who call themselves nationalists.