Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

What are the most powerful classes in 3.03?


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#41
Elric Galad

Elric Galad

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1567 posts
  • Location:Paris
Whisper is indeed better overall. Just a couple of times I found puppetmaster was better.

#42
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3366 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I'll have to keep an open mind and look out for places where it might be more useful.

 

By the way, I completely agree about Cipher's having great single target crowd control. I was really surprised that I struggled more with the fights on the Xaurip level of the Endless Paths than I did with the Ogre level. With the Ogres, being able to charm one or two of them (also a Boreal dwarf so charming a Wilder is pretty easy) then mental binding the last remaining one allowed me to beat most the easier fights taking almost no endurance damage at all. Meanwhile when you're fighting a crowd of 10-15 weaker mobs single target CC just isn't that great. 



#43
IamNOOB

IamNOOB

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 133 posts
  • Location:CZECH REPUBLIC

Depends what you mean by most powerful. Most useful one does not surely mean best dmg vs 1 target.
The most useful class [in my view] is the priest/ the paladin. They got much more uses and do not have to rely on hitting an enemy to be great. For me the most useless class is Hunter [=ranger]. I mean I don't claim they totally suck - I just do not need them in my team of 6. I never did in other RPGs, too.


Edited by IamNOOB, 14 January 2017 - 07:22 AM.


#44
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

For me the most useless class is Hunter. I mean I don't claim they totally suck - I just do not need them in my team of 6. I never did in other RPGs, too.

It's hard to balance rangers right.
Due to their solitary nature they usually don't bring any buffs, cc or passives that make the party stronger. They are mostly designen around [ranger + pet] duo. Game designer can make this pair weaker than other average class; stronger; or being on par. But even if they are perfectly balanced dps wise, their versatility would still be questionable as they can't escape like rogues, can't save a teammate like a paladin, priest or any hard-cc class, and they don't have any ace in the sleeve for the boss fights.

 
As for OP's question, I still believe that class power depends on game difficulty, resting frequency and the party composition built around that character.
Assuming optimal use of the class/build, in my humble opinion classes could be placed in the following tiers:

Pre-PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 8 fights)
tier 1: cipher
tier 2: barbarian, paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard (blasting), chanter
tier 3: rogue, monk, druid
tier 4: priest, wizard (pure-caster)


Pre-PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 4 fights)
tier 1: cipher
tier 2: barbarian, paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard (blasting), chanter, rogue, monk, druid
tier 3: priest, wizard (pure-caster)


Pre-PotD difficulty (boss fights)
tier S: priest
tier 0: wizard, druid
tier 1: cipher, fighter, paladin
tier 2: barbarian, ranger, chanter, rogue, monk

----------------------------

PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 8 fights)
tier 1: cipher
tier 2: barbarian, paladin, wizard (blasting), monk
tier 3: druid, fighter, ranger, chanter
tier 4: priest, wizard (pure-caster), rogue


PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 4 fights)
tier 1: cipher
tier 2: barbarian, paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard (blasting), chanter, monk, druid
tier 3: priest, wizard (pure-caster), rogue


PotD difficulty (boss fights)
tier S: priest
tier 0: wizard, druid, cipher
tier 1: paladin
tier 2: barbarian, ranger, fighter, chanter, monk
tier 3: rogue


----------------------------

Combining that all together, plus how many there are boss/hard fights vs easy/medium ones, I'd overall place classes in following tiers of power: (for PotD 6-man party), (taking into account their overall contribution over the whole play-through)

tier 1.0: cipher, wizard
tier 2.0: priest, druid
tier 2.3: paladin, barbarian
tier 3.0: chanter, ranger, monk
tier 3.4: fighter
tier 4.0: rogue

Edited by MaxQuest, 14 January 2017 - 08:38 AM.

  • 3rdID and Dr <3 like this

#45
3rdID

3rdID

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 11 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

 
----------------------------

Combining that all together, plus how many there are boss/hard fights vs easy/medium ones, I'd overall place classes in following tiers of power: (for PotD 6-man party), (taking into account their overall contribution over the whole play-through)

tier 1.0: cipher, wizard
tier 2.0: priest, druid
tier 2.3: paladin, barbarian
tier 3.0: chanter, ranger, monk
tier 3.4: fighter
tier 4.0: rogue

 

 

Thanks, this is great information! I would also like to see Boeroer's tier rankings for a 6 person POTD party for overall contribution during an entire play-through.



#46
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14817 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

In my experience, chanter and monk are WAY more powerful than a ranger and can easily compete with a barb. I also thingk that wizards are stronger than ciphers by far. But this is of course all influenced by one's playstyle. I have no problem with resting, there are limitless camping supplies. And it's not the casters why I rest often - I like to combine high self heals with offensive skilling in order to get sturdy but also damaging chars. So most of the time I have to rest because of health (if I don't want to gulp down potions of Infuse oVE all the time. This obviously makes vancian casters very strong. When you can handle normal encounters without using all your spells (use summoned weapons or per encounter abilites instead and so on) then all your spells can go into those encounters which are very hard - which makes them easy. I don't like to play with more than 3 casters anymore because it becomes too easy, even with upscaled content and whatnot. So for me, the power levels would be (starting with the strongest, special reasons in brackets):

 

- wizard

- priest, druid

- cipher (mind control), chanter (The Dragon Thrashed) 

- paladin, barbarian (HoF), monk (Torment's Reach, The Long Pain)

- ranger (Stormcaller, having a pet that has no health pool), fighter (Charge)

- nothing

- still nothing

- Concelhaut's Skull... in a block of concrete at the bottom of the Mariana Trench (makes funnny noises)

- rogue (looks funny when he falls on his face) 

 

This is also based on my experience while soloing. But "power" also includes things like support, buffing, cc and all that suff, not just damage or survivability.

But there are some exceptions. Special builds can turn a class upside down - like a rogue specialized on slinging spells, which can be powerful and great fun. So this order is not strict for me. And it's more based on a feeling (gathered during countless playthroughs, all PoTD) than on facts.


Edited by Boeroer, 14 January 2017 - 08:43 AM.

  • 3rdID, Dr <3 and MaxQuest like this

#47
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
Told ya I am biased toward ciphers)

Paralyze/prone the focus fired targets and quickly bring them down, while charming the threats is my favorite playstyle. Followed only by chain Amplified Wave (and Shining Beacons if need be).


P.S. Damn, I feel the temptation to try an MC rogue now... (dual Drawn-in-Spring or Blunderbuss). Covered by two ciphers, wizard and assisted by priest/paladin could result in an interesting run...

#48
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14817 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Blunderbuss could be really cool if Body Attunement from two different ciphers stacked (does it?).
When using a blunderbuss, don't forget to bring your Ring of Searing Flames (or use the wizard, he can also cast Expose Vulnerabilities).
  • Beardmore 3 likes this

#49
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
Not sure about Body Attunement. Will have to test it.
As for wizard, there is also synergy with Golden Gaze (since it also can proc Expose Vulnerabilities), plus Combusting Wounds.
If only there was room for a chanter with Sure-Handed and Aefyllath...

#50
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14817 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Combusting Wounds + Alacrity + Expose proc + two projectiles with Blast is nice.

#51
rheingold

rheingold

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1085 posts
  • Location:Cape Town
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

For me the most useless class is Hunter. I mean I don't claim they totally suck - I just do not need them in my team of 6. I never did in other RPGs, too.

It's hard to balance rangers right.Due to their solitary nature they usually don't bring any buffs, cc or passives that make the party stronger. They are mostly designen around [ranger + pet] duo. Game designer can make this pair weaker than other average class; stronger; or being on par. But even if they are perfectly balanced dps wise, their versatility would still be questionable as they can't escape like rogues, can't save a teammate like a paladin, priest or any hard-cc class, and they don't have any ace in the sleeve for the boss fights. As for OP's question, I still believe that class power depends on game difficulty, resting frequency and the party composition built around that character.Assuming optimal use of the class/build, in my humble opinion classes could be placed in the following tiers:Pre-PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 8 fights)tier 1: ciphertier 2: barbarian, paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard (blasting), chantertier 3: rogue, monk, druidtier 4: priest, wizard (pure-caster)Pre-PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 4 fights)tier 1: ciphertier 2: barbarian, paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard (blasting), chanter, rogue, monk, druidtier 3: priest, wizard (pure-caster)Pre-PotD difficulty (boss fights)tier S: priesttier 0: wizard, druidtier 1: cipher, fighter, paladintier 2: barbarian, ranger, chanter, rogue, monk----------------------------PotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 8 fights)tier 1: ciphertier 2: barbarian, paladin, wizard (blasting), monktier 3: druid, fighter, ranger, chantertier 4: priest, wizard (pure-caster), roguePotD difficulty (easy-medium encounters; resting > 4 fights)tier 1: ciphertier 2: barbarian, paladin, fighter, ranger, wizard (blasting), chanter, monk, druidtier 3: priest, wizard (pure-caster), roguePotD difficulty (boss fights)tier S: priesttier 0: wizard, druid, ciphertier 1: paladintier 2: barbarian, ranger, fighter, chanter, monktier 3: rogue----------------------------Combining that all together, plus how many there are boss/hard fights vs easy/medium ones, I'd overall place classes in following tiers of power: (for PotD 6-man party), (taking into account their overall contribution over the whole play-through)tier 1.0: cipher, wizardtier 2.0: priest, druidtier 2.3: paladin, barbariantier 3.0: chanter, ranger, monktier 3.4: fightertier 4.0: rogue

Some good points but I think you might have cipher a bit high and chanter to low on the list, at least that's my experience. The problem, of course with these lists in general is you also have to take into account level and party composition... so it's one of those fun questions like whose the best rock guitarist of all time...
Sure you can kinda get a general idea but it's all subjective and largely depends on play style.
For me, I'd say the top 3 are definitely: priest, Druid and wizard. (In no particular order). They have the tools to handle just about most situations efficiently.
Tier 2: Cipher, Chanter, Monk, Barbarian(high level with HOF)
3: Paladin, ranger, fighter
4: Rogue

But it depends on so many things....
Having said that, I don't normally play with priests/wizards, and by far the easiest play throughs I've had, have been with a wizard, priest,Druid party. It was like dropping down a couple notches in difficulty.

#52
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2347 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
That's what I like about PoE. It all depends on party composition and personal playstyle. And you can come with a lot of optimal choices and have even non tier 1 class contribute a lot if it fills the right niche in your party.  

Unlike in Tyranny.. where is one godly power build, 2-3 almost-godly builds, and everything else is tier 9.
  • oaktownbrown, rheingold and Dr <3 like this

#53
George_Truman

George_Truman

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 256 posts

So I made my list based on how much easier the character makes the game on PotD (thats the true meaning of power imo). That includes ease of use, as well as availability of build defining weapons/talents and how powerful the build(s) are in all stages of the game. I try my hardest not to cheese and not to abuse choke points so I like melee heavy parties that protect one or two less defended ranged characters. I also don't like respeccing unless I am trying to fine tune a new build. I hate running back and forth and like to try and finish dungeons with 2 camping supplies + whatever is inside. Also I am assuming use of what I consider the strongest builds.

 

Wizard - best control best melee damage least squishy caster       -  mechanics bot

Priest - best support/healing, can be fairly sturdy

Druid - best ranged aoe and strong control. good mix between buffs, damage, and control

 

Barbarian - firebrand build is insane aoe melee dps and available way earlier than citzal's. Gets plenty tanky pretty quick as well, can also be a back-line control machine with tall grass

 

Fighter - intelligence builds are very strong. only viable full tank and can be really strong unkillable melee dps that is useful with a wide range of weapons. The knockdown tank build is somewhat weak until 7 but is an awesome party leader and ok as an early game meat-bag/knockdown bot. 

Rogue - ranged build with borresaine. super early weapon availability, high damage and strong target lockdown. super powerful at dealing with the more annoying casters and enemies with high enough defenses to defend against aoe control.        -      also easy +3 mechanics

Paladin - really great abilities but outclassed by priest at all phases of game. no suberb builds except full support tank that is imo just a worse priest that can take more hits. I'd rather dump perception and pump resolve on my priest and make him a support only that can take a few hits. I like paladins though so I usually bring one anyway.

 

Monk - the best builds are really micro intensive. really strong but way too much effort to squeeze the most out of him.

Cipher - really strong damage but I find the abilities too annoying to use and he can't handle the front line like the wizard. too outclassed imo  

Ranger - if the pet death didn't give the debuff I would like this class more. best single target ranged damage but the rogue is almost as good and gets free control as well.

 

Chanter - really useful late game with dragon thrashed but is too useless until then. master of cheese though


Edited by George_Truman, 17 January 2017 - 07:03 AM.


#54
QuiteGoneJin

QuiteGoneJin

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 503 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
As much as I prefer mobile melee it feels like


Wizard > other casters > ranged > melee > >>>> rogue.

#55
fiddlesticks

fiddlesticks

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 117 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Gold Backer
  • Fig Backer

Are we including scrolls/spellcasting items in the comparison? Those would have an impact on relative class balance thanks to their interaction with certain abilities like Driving Flight or Deathblows.



#56
Elric Galad

Elric Galad

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1567 posts
  • Location:Paris
Basically, the ability to use items and scrolls is :

Rogue>>martials>>casters
(also given than a class defensive passives are still important when you use items)

Which is basically and fortunately the opposite of class balance.

Among the best abilities for an item user are :
-Deathblows
-Dirty Fighting
-Deep wounds
-Disciplined barrage
-Driving Flight
-Sworn ennemy
and of course base Accuracy !

Chanters are good items user too, not because they are specifically good at ut, but because they can still chant while using items.

#57
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14817 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Vicious Aim also works with some of the ranged targeted spells - as does pen. shot. But it's only the +20% damage that gets applied.

Another great ability for scoll casting is everything that speeds you up, esp. Blood Thirst.

But there's nothing that beats a rogue who casts Combusting Wounds + Missile Barrage + Deathblows with max DR bypass. ;)

Edited by Boeroer, 18 January 2017 - 12:46 AM.


#58
Elric Galad

Elric Galad

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1567 posts
  • Location:Paris
Rogue specialization toward using items as a secondary feature is great. It is nice lore-wise, gives them enough raw power and is radically different from other classes.

I'm pretty sure the current design is not intentionnal because Deathblow is not consistent with sneak attack. But it would be great if the Devs keep it.

It seems to be the design choice for Tides of Numenera by the way.

#59
fiddlesticks

fiddlesticks

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 117 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Gold Backer
  • Fig Backer

IIRC, the +10 Ranged Accuracy from Vicious Aim works on most spells, but I don't have the exact numbers. Loren Tyr would know for sure since he did a lot of testing in that regard.



#60
Dr <3

Dr <3

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1044 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
I tested that also when trying to build something like " counselor poi " ( see the paladin build ) with a ranger. Turned out that worked with charm and most other spell, and that, paired with ranger base accuracy of 30 ( +5 vs paladin) gives you the same accuracy that paladin would have casting sworn enemy on everyone. The only problem is that beign a ranger he was not enough sturdy ( i play mostly solo run and hate kite tactics, so my char must have some tanking capacity) so in the end i abandoned the project.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users