I hate the gold system. Let me buy the game.

[ArchSenex]

I do not mean to insult anyone in this thread. I've seen some of you post elsewhere and I respect some of your opinions. But on this particular issue, if I were a game developer, I would utterly dismiss all of your feedback. The complaints I'm seeing here are so out of whack with the facts and so beyond the pale of rationality that I would feel I have no reasonablle choice except to write you off as customers who are never going to be pleased no matter what I do.

 

That's an interesting take.  Write off the portion of your customer base who is actually paying, in favor of your customer base that isn't giving you any money and expects the game for free.  That's probably not a good long term business model, but it would be your hypothetical choice (if you could ever get your investors to sign off on it, but... good luck).

 

Also, assuming that I would never be pleased no matter what they do is also... wow.  I literally put exactly what I want them to do, and how they'd get my money if they did it, but I'm guessing you skimmed those parts.  Just sell the cards in static packs, exactly like the physical game does.  There's no random chance of getting the cards in the physical game, even in the class decks and other "non-base" contexts.

 

 

I would like to correct you that there is no hate

I hate CCG's, so there is hate.  I hate artificial scarcity, or any scheme that relies on taking advantage of gambling impulses to make more money.

 

I especially hate that every patch so far has come bundled with new cards in the pool available while you can still get the old ones, thus increasing the amount you have to spend to get new cards.  They should be released as new treasure chests.  I'm sure this will continue on every patch to add more cards to try and collect the whole set while reducing the chances of getting any particular card continually.

 

 

 

Every other digital adaptation of a physical game that has expansions did so in a way that was just purchasing a pack, and you get the content.  Elder Sign, Star Realms, Ascension.  None of these said that you can get more content in CCG-like packs, if you want an expansion, you buy the expansion, just like the physical PACG was sold.  I just want to buy the content in the same format, where I don't have to rely on luck to eventually, maybe, but possibly not, get everything.

Edited May 31, 2016 by ArchSenex

[ArchSenex]

On one hand it provides incentive to play.

 

Stop for a second and think about that statement for a moment though. Why should you need a gambling mini-game as incentive to play your real game?  Shouldn't the gameplay of the game itself be incentive to play?  We play the physical game, sometimes solo, despite all the extra work in doing so, without gold or incentive because it's a good game.  I get that you're trying to weigh pros and cons but if you think about that statement, it's a little weird.

[Bampop]

 

 

 

 

 

If you have the physical game: Search the Fox ally card. See it? Ok.

Now I go to the game that I "fully" unlocked. Gallery -> Cards -> Allies -> All -> No Fox. Gallery -> Cards -> Allies -> Treasures -> Fox

This is the whole point of this topic. Yes, I don't care how crappy the card is and yes, there are more examples. (I didn't unlock more treasures for obvious reasons). Go through the official card list on the Pathfinder website.

I am OK with the cards exclusively created for the digital game to be in chests. Some are not and I think that is also a very valid point. Just saying "end of story", especially after stating something, that is just not true (which is not your fault btw. since the information around the treasures is nebulous at best) is not in the interest of anyone.

Just want to point out, that the Fox actually is NOT part of the base game.

I bought the whole Rise of Runelord set, including the Char-sets.

Maybe I am wrong and B stands for something else? What DO they belong to?

 

Noble Brat is another treasure card btw. (just picked that up in another threat)

 

That image is a fan made checklist for the Bard Character Deck. That's a product that didn't come out until Skull and Shackles. The B does stand for Base, but it had nothing to do with Rise of the Runelords and it gets even more confusing because it has to do with Organized Play.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Bampop

[Jerm]

 

 

I would like to correct you that there is no hate

I hate CCG's, so there is hate.  I hate artificial scarcity, or any scheme that relies on taking advantage of gambling impulses to make more money.

 

I especially hate that every patch so far has come bundled with new cards in the pool available while you can still get the old ones, thus increasing the amount you have to spend to get new cards.  They should be released as new treasure chests.  I'm sure this will continue on every patch to add more cards to try and collect the whole set while reducing the chances of getting any particular card continually.

 

 

 

Every other digital adaptation of a physical game that has expansions did so in a way that was just purchasing a pack, and you get the content.  Elder Sign, Star Realms, Ascension.  None of these said that you can get more content in CCG-like packs, if you want an expansion, you buy the expansion, just like the physical PACG was sold.  I just want to buy the content in the same format, where I don't have to rely on luck to eventually, maybe, but possibly not, get everything.

 

 

Fair comment. I guess I was responding as I thought he meant hatred toward Obsidian developers, etc.

 

 

 

On one hand it provides incentive to play.

 

Stop for a second and think about that statement for a moment though. Why should you need a gambling mini-game as incentive to play your real game?  Shouldn't the gameplay of the game itself be incentive to play?  We play the physical game, sometimes solo, despite all the extra work in doing so, without gold or incentive because it's a good game.  I get that you're trying to weigh pros and cons but if you think about that statement, it's a little weird.

 

 

 

True that. I agree with someone who posted above that at least give a bigger gold bonus to those who bought the full app or just all the cards fully unlocked.

[Bampop]

Here is the bottom line: if you paid $25 you got every card I ever owned in the physical copy of Rise of the Runelords (through AD3 with AD4-6 forthcoming.) I can confirm this as someone who owned the entire set. If you choose to grind for gold you can get even more cards designed for the online game AND you can choose to play with them or not.

 

The whole payer vs. grinder argument doesn't make any sense because once multiplayer goes live it's still a COOPERATIVE game. You aren't competing with anyone. If someone has an advantage because they have treasure chest cards, it's only going to help you.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Bampop

[Longshot11]

I also prefer that they sold all the Treasure cards for a set price. As it is, I come to terms with the fact that my OCD tendencies will never be satisfied and I'll never get all the Rares, so this makes me care less about the whole system.

Someone pointed out a good idea - that you get *guaranteed* new treasure cards fro an X amount of play time (let's say, completed scenarios). But I don't care about the bul**** *difficulties* and their arbitrary wildcard powers, which suck the pleasure out of playing the real game (for me), but are currently the only way to get Chests (short of spending real money; I know someone will chime in that the grind is optional and treasures are just *bonus* content, but currently I feel punished for playing for playing the game as intended (since I'm missing out on gold) and no matter what the devs intended - player perception goes a long way).

And I won't even get into the non-existing treasures shenanigans and the bugged-to-Hell-and-back Daily Gold which seem to exclusively punish the paying user.

 

For the record, I bought the whole game on launch and got the Daily Gold subscription (which I won't be renewing for the above-mentioned reasons).

Edited May 31, 2016 by Longshot11

[ArchSenex]

I think there's some confusion.  I'm not saying the chest cards should come with the $25 for the base game.

 

Two important things:

 

#1 I think 25 is laughably cheap.  If Obsidian had said that the base set was $50, I wouldn't have increased the amount of time before purchasing.  Heck, I'd go as high as $100 (as people have said, the base game would have been 160).  At no point am I arguing about the money itself.  I would have paid the entire 160 to just re-buy the game in digital form because it is awesome.

 

#2 I'm not saying the expansion cards should be free.  I think they should charge something like 10-20 dollars for them, and then you get a new 30-50 cards for your set.  That's pricier than the physical character expansions, but I don't care, it's not about the money.

 

This isn't about the price or what you get for your money, it's about the fact that part of the game is behind a chance-wall, which is insane in the board game industry.  I hate the gold system in part because it makes them free, when they should be pay for, but they should be pay for in static, non-random packs.  If people enjoy the game enough to play to get gold to unlock the game, then they should be paying.  

 

Instead, because a good chunk of the player base wants something for free, Obsidian had to add a CCG onto the side of an otherwise great game, just to recoup costs from those willing to spend money.  In other words, pay players are punished in order to allow another group to play for free.

[Jehren]

As an example of not being able to please everyone: I'm a paying customer, love the chests, and would be disappointed if they were taken out.

 

I'm just starting to get into the new patch, but before it dropped I had all 11 characters through story mode, each group having completed all the scenarios on Legendary.  I had a group of four in quest mode up to 29 and started up a second group of four and am at 14.  At no point did I 'grind podiker'.  I'm much more interested with actually playing the game.  And with the chests, every couple of missions throughout it all I was able to grab a one and have a little surprise, expanding my vault.  It added a fun collectible aspect that could also make my groups more powerful.  I love collecting, and I love becoming more powerful, and strongly enjoy the random aspect.  So its a great addon for me.

 

Any argument railing against the random ccg-ness of the chests is going to fall flat with me, because I love that.

 

Any argument railing against the chests as a way to introduce additional content is going to fall flat with me, because I love that.

 

So which paying customer do the devs design for?  Me or ArchSenex?

[Kamikazi]

I do like the chests as well. Am happy to have paid the price, and would do so again. I would just like the game to encourage less grinding for pay players.

 

However $25 for an app, is absolutely not the same as $100 for a physical product. With a physical product I can mod the heck out of it. Am guaranteed to always have my copy. I can resell it, gift it, rip up all copies of the Siren, I can pull out a Sharpie and write on all the Blessing of the Gods to turn them into something else, burn it in an effigy for all it matters. Also much more of the MSRP cost in that $100 goes to the manufacture and distribution chain than 30%. Apples and steak. Also apps are competing with other apps, Boardgames are competing with other Boardgames (I will ALWAY play Imperial Assault rather than this face-to-face).

 

The gold structure as it is setup current encourages play that I don't find as fun, and I could see it causing burn-out if not controlled. I am sure there are MBA's out there with data that show that the FTP tacked on is good for the game, but the costs to gamble for legendary cards is out of whack with gold purchase prices. I would prefer the game to be less grind friendly and more pay friendly.

 

On the plus side, the poor implementation of chests has gotten me to shake my OCD tendencies and I have culled almost all Deck B/1 cards. That does result in a better experience for me. 

 

What is not in dispute here is the quality of output by the devs. I love the game. What I would prefer is a revamped gold system and more open information about how the chest system works and what is and isn't included. I don't see why it should tilt so heavily in favor of free players who can literally grind my $25 in gold trivially. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Kamikazi

[ArchSenex]

So which paying customer do the devs design for?  Me or ArchSenex?

Easy, both.  Leave the random chests in, but allow me to unlock everything in them for a static price point.  That way, you can play randomly, and I can just make a purchase and then enjoy what I bought.

[chainsawash]

So which paying customer do the devs design for?  Me or ArchSenex?

 

Ah, and therein lies the rub. Only way to resolve this is to roll an opposed Charisma(Persuasion) ability check.

 

Personally I was just psyched this game came out at all and the bundle gives me everything I would have expected to get to play a digital version of RotR. The treasure cards are just a bonus for me. However, I think ArchSenex's last post clarified his stance very well and I also wouldn't complain if chests worked like his suggestions. I'd probably also spend some more money.

[yaemon]

Interesting, personally I like that I was able to buy the whole game for $25.

The treasure chests are just a way to get even more card variety over time (as I get gold by playing the game), so for me they are just an extra bonus I get for free... I don't feel they are part of the base game, that it is already completely available after the first payment.

[Kgk4569]

 

 

 

 

If you have the physical game: Search the Fox ally card. See it? Ok.

Now I go to the game that I "fully" unlocked. Gallery -> Cards -> Allies -> All -> No Fox. Gallery -> Cards -> Allies -> Treasures -> Fox

This is the whole point of this topic. Yes, I don't care how crappy the card is and yes, there are more examples. (I didn't unlock more treasures for obvious reasons). Go through the official card list on the Pathfinder website.

I am OK with the cards exclusively created for the digital game to be in chests. Some are not and I think that is also a very valid point. Just saying "end of story", especially after stating something, that is just not true (which is not your fault btw. since the information around the treasures is nebulous at best) is not in the interest of anyone.

Just want to point out, that the Fox actually is NOT part of the base game.

I bought the whole Rise of Runelord set, including the Char-sets.

Maybe I am wrong and B stands for something else? What DO they belong to?

 

Noble Brat is another treasure card btw. (just picked that up in another threat)

 

That image is a fan made checklist for the Bard Character Deck. That's a product that didn't come out until Skull and Shackles. The B does stand for Base, but it had nothing to do with Rise of the Runelords and it gets even more confusing because it has to do with Organized Play.

 

 

 

Additionally I will point out that  (B) means that it is in the Base Adventure Deck, NOT that it is part of the Base Game.

 

All of the character addon packs (which are not in this game yet) add cards to the Base Adventure Deck to balance out the loot. This is the reason you don't see things like the "Temple Sword" which would be EPIC to get for Sajan. Obsidian has been "leaking" some of the more generically useful content to us via treasure chests.

 

There is A LOT of content for Pathfinder Card Game, and Obsidian has done a great job of making it available to us. Yes, parts of it can be done better, but for $25 you get a lot of bang for your buck.

 

Would I like to buy cards on a card by card basis? Hell yeah! But seriously, you can play the game without issues with just the included content.

[Parody]

I'm also not a fan of the random content packs and would like an option to purchase, say, a set with one of every card rather than pull random packs to try to get the additional cards sprinkled in from other sources.

 

There's other issues that concern me more about this adaptation of the game: there isn't a PC version; even if there was I probably would have held off due to the bugs; and I wish we had options to handle the box (in "Story" mode; Quest mode doesn't interest me at all) in the standard way as well as the ACG way.  Overall, I wish it was closer to just an implementation of the physical game like other board game conversions.  But that's not what it is, and hopefully threads like this both help Obsidian see where fan interest lies and provide other players with the information they need to determine if and how to spend their money.

[Bampop]

Additionally I will point out that (B) means that it is in the Base Adventure Deck, NOT that it is part of the Base Game.

This isn't exactly right. The Class Decks were designed for Organized Play as part of the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Guild, with the optional benefit that you could add them to your normal play. The numbers on the Class Deck cards let you know when to add them to your regular game OR during which Organized Play scenarios.you could take them as rewards. So even though the Fox on that checklist has the (B) on it, it's only to denote that you could put it in your regular set from the very beginning if you bought the Class Decks as supplemental materials.

 

None of that is important, as the issue I had was that the OP was looking around the Internet to support his incorrect claim that there were cards available in the physical RotR game that are not available in the Obsidian version, and chose a checklist from a product that wasn't available at the time the adapted product was.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Bampop

[Brainwave]

There is no hate Borissimo, I've never played a game I hated and don't plan on starting now. I simply disagree with their decisions in creating this game, from the in game currency stuff to the price point decisions. The difference between you and I is that I can respectfully disagree with your opinion, but for some reason you choose to outright dismiss the opinions of others as something that should be "utterly dismissed."

[Bampop]

Overall, I wish it was closer to just an implementation of the physical game like other board game conversions.

If that's all you want, pay your $25. Play only in Normal Mode. Ignore Heroic and Legendary modes, ignore Quest, and ignore treasure chests. If you play the game in nothing but Normal mode, you should be able to play exactly what I played in the physical version.

[Brainwave]

 

Overall, I wish it was closer to just an implementation of the physical game like other board game conversions.

If that's all you want, pay your $25. Play only in Normal Mode. Ignore Heroic and Legendary modes, ignore Quest, and ignore treasure chests. If you play the game in nothing but Normal mode, you should be able to play exactly what I played in the physical version.

But that's the thing. It's not. At least two mechanics in the game are/will be modified for the digital game. The ability to pass on rolling for boons and the culling of cards once Basics/Elites will be removed. You might not care about those things but some of us do.

[Bampop]

That's a fair point. Then I agree that these forums are s good place for people to gain information to make an informed decision before purchasing.

[Kamikazi]

 

Overall, I wish it was closer to just an implementation of the physical game like other board game conversions.

If that's all you want, pay your $25. Play only in Normal Mode. Ignore Heroic and Legendary modes, ignore Quest, and ignore treasure chests. If you play the game in nothing but Normal mode, you should be able to play exactly what I played in the physical version.

 

Some of us have OCD tendencies. As such we want to collect one of everything and have every option available to us.

 

We also want to see Obsidian succeed as they move from the soft launch on iPads/Androids to phones, PCs, and multiplayer and possibly consoles someday. All of us want to see Season 1 do well and make it to see Season 2 and beyond (else we wouldn't be on the forum). The chests show us an inkling of that, especially as many of the new cards with this patch seem to have new traits (firearm, finesse, etc).

 

That said I am perfectly ok with the chest implementation as is. I'd prefer to see more generosity for the season pass holders, and less for the FTP. The real question is are the FTP players willing to shell out a smaller amount to get some gold (like $5 or $10)? I doubt it with the current cost model. Make everything more expensive and give pass holders a bonus everyday they log in. Ideally you want those that payed to check in daily and stick around long enough to pay for Season 2. I don't think the current gambling pack setup accomplishes that the best. As it stands the daily gold "subscription" is a joke. You can grind that payout daily from a five minute Mersi-Pill run, or get the entire daily subscription payout in an hour, lol.

 

And just an additional note about physical versus digital. I can walk over to the shelf in the other room and pull out my copy of Talisman 2nd edition from 20+ years ago and play it with my boys. When they leave the house for college I can send it off with them in another 11 years. Try doing that with ANYTHING digital. I also occasionally do math trades, one boardgame for another 1-for-1. Digital =/= Physical! 

[HPL_fan]

I disagree that F2P players won't be interested in the smaller price points. I was.  I played just F2P at first.  Then I bought the 30 days of gold, and a bit of extra gold because I was really getting into the game and it was cheap.  That let me buy a couple of new characters and get a few better items in the vault, as well as the deal on the Burnt Offerings adventure.  By the end of that I was hooked.  I finally decided I liked the game so much I went ahead and bought the $25 bundle as well.  It's such a good deal, and you get promo cards you can't get any other way, that it was still worth it to me after having bought items already.  That, to me, is the ideal F2P model.  Give me options and let me decide how much I want to spend on the game.  I don't understand why that's controversial.  If it was a question of pay up front and then pay for more content, like with console games, I would be more upset.  Here, you don't have to pay if you don't want to.  If you do, you have options on how much you want to buy.

 

 

Ironically, I agree about the value of the physical game.  The reason I love games like Talisman DE and Pathfinder Adventures is that I will never have the time or group of friends (with time) to play my favorite games on the actual table top.  The digital versions of these types of games are fantastic for me.  I'm kind of like that about books, though.  If it's a book I love I want the physical version.  If it's a casual interest I read the eBook version since it's more convenient (and often cheaper).  Digital is definitely not the same as a physical game.  In some cases, though, it's the only option feasible.  In this case, Obsidian has done an excellent job of porting the game.  

[Tobold]

 

That's essentially the same as buying the game. 

 

It's not the same. And it is scary that lot of people seem to think that on this board.

 

You don't get any item better than common, if you "buy" the game. How is this fair?

 

The treasure chests full of cards with different rarities are a marketing trick for the mobile games generation. If you actually look at the cards, you'll find that those shiny rares aren't any better than the "common" cards from the paper version. Frequently treasure chest cards are actually worse than regular cards. The best cards are the loot cards you get for adventure completion, not from chests.

 

$25 buys you the whole game with all the cards that would cost you about $150 in physical card form. But if you do that, you'll still earn gold from just playing, and there is nothing else to buy with that gold than treasure chests. You don't need those chest cards for anything, but they allow for a bit of variety. What's not to like?

[dbt]

 

I disagree on the price point: sure $25 is high for an app but who is making you pay it? .

But that's exactly what I'm saying. They can charge what they want (obviously) but I think it's high compared to what apps generally coat. Would I pay it if there wasn't an in game gold option? Maybe. But it wouldn't be an automatic purchase like if it cost $15 (which is still high-ish for a paid app). I'm just saying that in my opinion they might actually make more money if the game was a bit cheaper, because sure all the hardcore Pathfinder people who want to support the game are going to pay the $25 regardless. But when you get to people like me who don't think that way or people who don't have a connection to the card game at all, that cost might be a turnoff.

I think the idea of price resistance comes in here.  For most products there is a psychological barrier that most (but not all) people won't cross and the price vs. demand curve becomes rather flat.  Whether they set the price at $10 or $15 or $25 I think they won't see a huge swing in the number of full game season pass buyers because the great majority of all Android / iOS users are still used to F2P or paying a few dollars at the most.

 

My guess is that the $25 price is set to attract folks like myself who bought and played the card game and realize upfront how fun it is but also how hard it is to actually play solo.  That price is also a relative bargain compared to the overall cost of the physical game.

 

So now they've addressed how to satisfy the existing PACG players out there and they want to find a way to entice discovery of the game by new people who don't know much about it.  That leads you to the F2P model and things like the treasure chests to keep those folks interested and ultimately to entice them into paying a few bucks here and there for treasures or a character or two.

 

You should remember as well that you are an exceptional person in as much as you've actually taken the time to play the game, read the forums and post a thoughtful concern about the pricing.  Considering that something like 90+% of apps get installed, played a few times and then get forgotten or deleted you might really realize what an exception to the norm that you are (in a strictly positive sense of the term!).

 

Even if we don't agree 100% I still think your comments lead to an interesting discussion so thanks for that.

[Kamikazi]

I had a stray thought yesterday from this conversation. I've already paid for the rest of the season. For the future, they will have a couple of options: 1) Add the new scenarios into the same app, keep the gold system; 2) Create a new separate app; 3) Scrap the project.

 

In case of decision 1, why would I pay $25 for season 2? AFAIK the only difference between me and a FTP player is Poog (I can pass on the blessing, weapon, and definitely don't care about the bane) and my 3rd Potion of Inescapable Location that I can't even use yet. I can do without treasure chests and stock up gold to pay for season 2 in gold as it is released. Like I suggested earlier, keep Decks B-2 cheap but jack up the costs for everything else. This discussion is starting to make me feel like a chump for supporting the devs rather than going FTP. That is the last thing they (or any of us) want. A pay player NEEDS to feel they get value for their investment above what everyone else gets for free.

 

Option 2 & 3 makes it more likely to go FTP if the current economic model stands. 

[nsr]

I paid $25 for the full game, and I don't regret it at all.  Since then, I've spent many hours playing, and the gold I've gathered I use on treasure chests.  I suppose I could have just spent those hours collecting gold to buy the game, but that sounds like work not fun.