Do Druids storm spells need to get nerfed?

[Kingsman]

I thought today was what a creepy weirdo day

[Anaeme]

I dislike it when somebody shows up and asks for a talent to get nerfed because it suits their play style. I think it is rather shortsighted and does not help the game. Why not ask for other talents to be upgraded to give players a real choice? 

 

 

Nerfing in general is a lazy man's approach to making a game better. It creates imbalance in the overall game as soon as it is implemented and most of the time developers do not get around to tuning the rest of the game to compensate.

 

 

Look at what happened when they implemented immunities. It wrecked a bunch of rogue and barbarian talents in one swoop and rendered those classes under-powered till today. The fighter is another example. That class cannot hold down a position, critters are constantly breaking engagement.

 

 

PoE as a game has already suffered greatly from this nerfing syndrome. In some patches the nerfing has been so bad that the devs had to make a second pass to avoid ruining the game

 

 

Now someone wakes up and wants the druid to be rendered useless by nerfing the one talent that actually works the way it should. Give me a break...

Edited May 15, 2016 by Anaeme

[Kingsman]

Druid currently is far and away the most powerful class because of relentless storm.

 

I think you would find Druids far more fun to play if they weren't a one trick poney.

 

But yes I completely agree if it wasn't for relentless storm they would be useless and I would never use them

 

But I would never use them again anyway because they break the game with relentless storm

Edited May 15, 2016 by Kingsman

[DreamWayfarer]

I think you would find Druids far more fun to play if they weren't a one trick poney.

 

But yes I completely agree if it wasn't for relentless storm they would be useless and I would never use them

Druids... aren't... a... one trick poney.

Druids... don't... need... Relentless Storm.

 

Nerfing it would only drop them from Wizard-tier to Cipher-tier at worst, or probably just make them have a bit less pure casting capacities as other casters. It wouldn't... wreck the class.

 

All other druid spells and builds won't become useless because a single spell got weaker.

[Kingsman]

Wizards are better at crowd control then Druids. Fact

 

Priests are better at buffing

 

I think you would find Druids far more fun to play if they weren't a one trick poney.

But yes I completely agree if it wasn't for relentless storm they would be useless and I would never use them

Druids... aren't... a... one trick poney.

Druids... don't... need... Relentless Storm.

Nerfing it would only drop them from Wizard-tier to Cipher-tier at worst, or probably just make them have a bit less pure casting capacities as other casters. It wouldn't... wreck the class.

All other druid spells and builds won't become useless because a single spell got weaker.

Wizards are better at crowd control then Druids (minus storms). Fact

 

Priests are better at healing then Druids. Fact

 

Priests are better at buffing then Druids. Fact

 

Wizards are better at ranged spell damage then Druids. Fact.

 

Druids have storms and that's about it. Don't get me wrong I wish they had more but they don't.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Kingsman

[DreamWayfarer]

Druids have storms and that's about it. Don't get me wrong I wish they had more but they don't.

Druids are better, or at least just as good, at single target melee damage than Wizards, and much better than Priests- fact.

 

Druids can heal and buff party members, Wizards can't- fact.

 

Druids can do CC, and before high levels damage, better than Priests- fact.

 

Druids tank better than unbuffed Priests and Wizards- fact.

 

Druids are jacks of all trades. If you compare them to Priests and Wizards at what those classes are specialists on, of course they will come short.

 

Plus, Priests and Wizards are the most OP classes out there. If Druids are nerfed, so should they be.

 

EDIT: I am not saying I want they to be nerfed. I think we are too late in the game cicle to try to fix casters. I am just saying that it is ridiculous to assume the whole class depends on a single ability.

Edited May 17, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Elric Galad]

Druid are the best at single target DPS and have 2 priest-level support spells : Form of the Delemgan and Moonwell.

 

Form of the Delemgan->Avenging Storm->Cat or Stag form = incredible single target DPS with 24 DR plus party buff and retaliation. No relentless storm has been hurt for this movie.

 

Now if you nerf all storm spells...

[Wolken3156]

Wizards are better at crowd control then Druids. Fact

Nah.

 

Usually when I run both, I find I prefer the Druid for CC duty, since a majority of their CC spells also have damage attached. Druids have plenty of excellent tools outside of the storm spells.

 

Tanglefoot - Excellent tool for lowering enemy Reflex defenses and also a nice tool for keeping enemies away from your group, very large range as well. Generally my first pick for spell mastery. Only real downside is that it can affect your allies.

Sunbeam - Not as good as Chill Fog, but it deals solid early game damage and Blind is always incredible. The big thing with this spell though is that it synergies perfectly with Tanglefoot.

Nature's Mark - This has stacking issues with a lot of other defense lowering sources. That said though, its a great way to lower Deflection and Reflex.

Charm Beast/Hold Beast - Makes battles against Beast type enemies considerably easier. These also work on dragons, making Druids very valuable against them.

Insect Swarm - Very useful if you run a Barbarian or Wizard, since they can take full advantage of the lowered concentration, pretty good damage too.

Spreading Plague - Early source of Weakened, which is a very powerful debilitation if you're running casters or a Rogue.

Calling the World's Maw - AoE Prone (IMO, the best source of it too) plus it deals some pretty decent damage too. A personal favorite of mine.

Overwhelming Wave - Incredible effect as well as damage. Nightmare to aim and use effectively though if you're using your Druid in the back lines. If he's in the front though, this spell is incredible.

Cleansing Wind - An incredible keep away tool. Very useful if you're running a ranged heavy group. Lots of fun if you combine this with Pull of Eora.

Embrace the Earth-Talon - Earliest source of petrify. Unlike Gaze of the Adragan, this spell also deals a decent amount of damage too.

Plague of Insects - You're mainly using this for its sheer damage, but Sickened and that Concentration debuff can be handy at times.

Conjure Blight - You don't have much control over which appears, but Blights are very useful due to their immunities and that they have an unlimited duration (At least when I last played). Annoyingly slow move speed though.

Fire Stag - Fire everywhere! WOOOOOO

Edited May 25, 2016 by Wolken3156

[Odd Hermit]

Overwhelming Wave is bugged damage though it seems like, similar to Iconic Projection. Swaddling Sheet sometimes just randomly wiped groups of enemies when it procced when I was using it.

 

Overall I'd say Wizards are still substantially better for hard control -

 

• Sicken stays relevant the entire game. Druid's only hard CC at level 1 only works on beasts - not uncommon or unimportant, but still.
• Bewildering Spectacle isn't as good as Confusion but it works well enough and makes a nice Spell Mastery choice. Druids still have nothing at this level.
• Confusion and Shadowflame dramatically and immediately shift any fight in your favor - like "we dropped a bunch of mobs around you" situations.
• Gaze of the Adragan is amazing for single priority targets.

 

All of those are just so staple I often only use those spells to get through many encounters in a row. And unlike storms, they're on demand and are faster casts. Usually once you've taken control of the initial stage of the fight it's game over anyway.

 

More importantly, with so many immune enemies, Wizards have a wide variety of hard AoE control options. They also have more low level options and get more total casts and can really spam disable things in a pinch. Druids are very reliant on a few particular spell levels for their disables.

 

Druids have some solid debuff potential, but Wizards still compete especially since Chill Fog dominates the early game(Miasma is amazing too), and, like Slicken, remains relevant throughout. Druids, again, come into their own a bit late with Plague of Insects and Venombloom being their main standouts for me.

[PugPug]

Yes. The feral druids in Stormwall Gorge that cast this certainly need a nerf.

 

Just by googling for tips on dealing with them, I saw they are a common point of frustration for people.

[TWPE]

Heh, get used to them. There are much worse things that use those spells in this game.

[Boeroer]

Just put somebody tanky with double preservation (like Orlan's Bramble Ring + Solace med. shield) into their midst (=+100 to all defenses if he/she gets stunned by the lightning) and pick the druids off with bows. Those guys go down quickly and the storms have limited range.

[jsaving]

Storm spells provide nice damage over their duration but can't be directed toward whichever foe most needs to be removed from the battlefield, which makes them less useful than their DPS might suggest.  The druidic regeneration spells are kind of like this too, providing nice healing over their duration even though you have no guarantee when you cast the spell that the ally to whom you provide regeneration will be the ally who actually ends up needing it.  The combination of storm and regeneration spells let the druid fill a genuinely new niche on the battlefield without overshadowing the party's wizards and priests.  For that reason, my answer to the OP would be no, druid storm spells shouldn't be nerfed. 

[Kingsman]

I read through everyone's replies. Thanks for the feedback.

 

From my personal experience all I can say is that I don't play Druids anymore because relentless storm just trivialises most encounters. It's fun at first but gets pretty boring pretty quick.

[Loren Tyr]

I read through everyone's replies. Thanks for the feedback.

 

From my personal experience all I can say is that I don't play Druids anymore because relentless storm just trivialises most encounters. It's fun at first but gets pretty boring pretty quick.

 

That's in itself not a reason to stop playing Druids altogether though. You can also simply not use Relentless Storm when playing a Druid. 

[Kingsman]

 

I read through everyone's replies. Thanks for the feedback.

From my personal experience all I can say is that I don't play Druids anymore because relentless storm just trivialises most encounters. It's fun at first but gets pretty boring pretty quick.

 

 

That's in itself not a reason to stop playing Druids altogether though. You can also simply not use Relentless Storm when playing a Druid.

As if that's going to happen. If it's there you will use it.

[Loren Tyr]

As if that's going to happen. If it's there you will use it.

 

 

Unless you choose not to. It's not that difficult a concept, really. There's also a console with all sorts of cheat codes, are you using that as well then? 

[Kingsman]

 

As if that's going to happen. If it's there you will use it.

 

 

Unless you choose not to. It's not that difficult a concept, really. There's also a console with all sorts of cheat codes, are you using that as well then?

Haven't looked into it. But storms is right in front of my face

[Loren Tyr]

Haven't looked into it. But storms is right in front of my face

 

Sure, it's more prominent. That still doesn't explain what's so difficult about not using them if you have decided not to in a given playthrough.

[anameforobsidian]

The "it's not overpowered if you choose not to use it" argument is weak.  Players have no reason nor responsibility to handicap themselves.  

 

That said, some spells are just stronger than others.  If they're egregiously strong compared to another class they should be nerfed.  If they're out of line for the class, then some other class abilities should be increased in potency.  I played half the game on PotD with Hirviras and Aloth, and while returning storm was a useful spell, it was certainly no more useful than wizard mainstays like slicken, confuse, gaze of the Adragan, or wall of colors.  I don't see how "relentless storm trivializes most encounters."  For one thing there's a **** ton of enemies that don't get stunned or have resistance to shock.  For another, shock doesn't affect light armored fighters that much and WM2 has a ton of lightly armored monks that wreck **** up.  If storms were too powerful, they wouldn't have made or would have nerfed Stormcaller.  It sounds like you ran into the one nasty group of druids and are overgeneralizing.

 

So I think this is really an argument that druids may not have enough fire and forget control spells.  I seem to remember the accuracy of their lower level control spells is pretty low, and at upper levels they do less status effects than wizards (venombloom is the only one in the last two spell levels), which leaves them kind of in the lurch.  Really they control mobs through summons (tanks that have no long term health!), but I think people that want to use them as a nature wizard could do with more options than just lightning, firebug, and sunlance.

[Loren Tyr]

The "it's not overpowered if you choose not to use it" argument is weak.  Players have no reason nor responsibility to handicap themselves.  

 

Which would be considerably more relevant if I was actually making that argument. Rather, I was merely pointing out that if someone finds a particular spell or ability makes a class too powerful, (s)he can simply opt not to use that spell/ability rather than forego using the class altogether. This was the sentiment expressed before. 

 

More generally, balancing issues aside, of course players have reason to 'handicap' themselves: because it can be fun for them to do so. Whether this is for roleplaying reasons (my mage is an obsessive pyromaniac and predominantly uses fire-based spells), mechanical/creative reasons (trying an unusual build), challenge reasons (naked PotD solo), or something else... if you derive enjoyment from it, that seems plenty reason to me. 

[Faldorn]

My PC is a druid and of course I use storm spells often (playing on Potd). The level 5 returning storm sure is nice due to the stuns and all, but it is not like it is an instant win in tough fights or anything, at least in my experience.

 

Being on level 13 atm, the level 3 storm spell has lost tons of its power in most fights. Good for thrash mob encounters.

 

In my opinion, the storm spells are fine the way they are. I try not to rest too often, so I usually only use the highlevel storm spell in big or difficult encounters. Clearing Od Nua for example (some levels ago), that made me "save" level 5 spells quite often, in order not to be depleted after 2 or 3 fights.

 

I find it very enjoyable to attempt difficult fights with a party that is pretty much completly depleted alreay (in terms of spells and health etc.). Absolutely gratifying to win a fight with Edér as the last man standing with a completely red health bar.

 

There is no denying however, that my level 5 spells are certainly the most valuable. Level 6 has some good ones too (Sunlance, Venombloom...), but as far as AoE damage goes, 5 is superb.

 

I found the level 7 spells extremely underwhelming...