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I've been deliberating over this class's value to my party compositions for awhile and I've actually started to lean towards them not being worth a slot.

 

Note that all of this is from a PotD perspective.

 

They buff, they heal, they CC, they eventually do good damage just by being there. But how well they do these things has to be compared to the value other classes bring, and their various synergies.

 

I'm going to break it down into categories -

 

Buffs: Chanters have some nice quick rank 1 Chants to buff move speed and defenses. These are solid throughout the game. But a Paladin brings a stronger move speed buff that can be up 100% of the time. If you want move speed a Chanter isn't the king. Chant bonuses also don't stack with Priest buffs, which are stronger and a Chanter just can't really function as a replacement for a Priest. Chants, granted, are free other than the cost of time and the inability to apply more than a couple at a time, but you tend to not need little buffs against easy fights as much as you need the on-demand buffs of a Priest on tough fights.

 

The one big exception of course, is Sure Handed Ila, which isn't quite replaceable by any other class. I'd definitely use a Chanter in a shooting / kiting composition for that alone.

 

Debuffs/Disables: Chanters definitely have some solid debuffs and disables. But there's a problem - they're not on demand and they're less reliable. Chanters have 5 more base accuracy than Vancian casters, but Vancian casters get +10 or more accuracy bonus to all of their spells. Chanters are the most likely to miss a clutch CC attempt, and unlike other casters can't try again immediately after. They are also mostly one-shot hit or miss, unlike spells such as Chill Fog that have a ticking component and multiple chances to hit. Building phrases up to a big CC only to have it miss is harsh. Rime and Frost' is nice for kiting and enabling sneak attacks though, that's the one debuff/disable I found myself appreciating most and it's a fun mechanic leaving frost traps as you run.

 

They also don't have innate methods of boosting their accuracy other than late-game Invocations, but then you're using that invocation on a buff not a CC and have to build up phrases before using the CC. Everything is opportunity cost with Chanter - you can't just use one thing to improve the following thing you do.

 

Healing: Ancient Memory I recently found out is really nice. But it's mostly nice because it's not per-rest. A Priest will easily out-match a Chanter's heal over time capabilities when it really matters, while also having burst healing. Chanters also have no Invocation healing, which is disappointing, 'cause that'd be a nice use for Invocations since healing can't miss like their offensive Invocations.

 

Damage: I know people like the Dragon Thrashed, and Soft Winds of Death is alright early on, but aside from that - which doesn't contribute much to bursting priority targets. They are mostly nice for clearing things that are already easy enough to kill. It's nice having passive, reliable damage sometimes but it's also, as usual, coming at an opportunity cost of other chants and getting far fewer invocations because you're using a longer Chant.

 

Summons: Alright, here I've got to admit it's hard to beat the Chanter. I find myself using my Invocations on Summons more than anything else. They can be used per-encounter and are reasonably powerful as distractions and just for dropping behind enemies to get flanking bonuses. Some are quite large and capable of physically blocking enemies while you do cheesy chokepoint things. You can also use them to lure enemies into enemies of a different type so they fight eachother. If you can outrun a melee enemy or small group you can often use them to stay in combat and spam summons at stuff. Some fights you'll even be kept in combat the whole time for whatever reason - like Maerwald or Osyra - even when the enemy has given up on chasing you. This is very cheap and cheesy of course, but it works.

 

Overall: Surely there will be arguments that Chanter is "worth more than the sum of its parts" but I've found that Chanter is mostly good for open-area kiting strategies and general cheese using summons(which other classes can enable as well, just not quite as easily/cheaply), but disappointing in the tough fights that you can't cheese - enclosed spaces, movement speed beyond what a Chanter brings, etc. Even though you'd think they'd be a slow burner class that adds a lot to an extended battle I haven't really found that to be the case. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, and maybe I'm being too critical of kiting strategies - it just starts to feel icky for me abusing the limited AI that much though.

 

____

 

Tweaks I'd suggest(though they may be totally done with balancing by now IDK) -

 

#1. Bonus accuracy for invocations.

 

#2. A healing invocation.

 

#3. More class-specific talent options. Chanters have fewer than any other class I think, so they are pretty boring to build. You either focus on spamming one or two powerful Chants, or using low level ones to get Invocations faster... and use a small handful of the more powerful Invocations. A few more interesting talents could open more interesting play styles.

 

#4. Move things around, buff a few duds. Some of the Chants and Invocations are weaker than lower level ones. I cannot ever see myself using The Fox from the Farmer. Ever. It wouldn't even be worth using as a level 1 Chant.

 

#5. More clarity in Chant overlapping and more breathing room to keep them stacked. Or a mechanic to combine chants - with limitations of course. I seem to need 21 Intellect and 2 ranks of brisk recitation just to keep two level 1 chants rolling. Fire and forget buffs  Spamming one chant over and over seems to be the way to go until then which isn't particularly exciting. Even brief periods where some chants fall-off(like losing move-speed when something very mean is chasing you) can be very bad.

Edited by Odd Hermit

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There is a healing invocation for chanters also their dots can be very useful in order to trigger multiple ticks of combusting wounds(since it will tick from each dot and all ticks stack and you can just give the ring to the chanter to cast it), they can be durable while providing nice buffs/debuffs constantly, they are my go-to offtanks for quite some time.

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There is a healing invocation for chanters also their dots can be very useful in order to trigger multiple ticks of combusting wounds(since it will tick from each dot and all ticks stack and you can just give the ring to the chanter to cast it), they can be durable while providing nice buffs/debuffs constantly, they are my go-to offtanks for quite some time.

 

Ah right I forgot about two fingers.

 

Now that I'm thinking about it though perhaps healing Invocations weren't a great suggestion, since healing is reactive and chanter would have to sit on its phrases waiting to use it which isn't ideal the way their mechanics work.

 

Is combusting wounds good now? It was considered broken and terrible for a long time(DRs negated it and/or it was just not functioning) didn't know that changed. Still, there are way better/faster ticking DoTs than a Chanter's.

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It really depends on your team. If you roll with Priests and rest a lot than nothing else compares.

 

If you roll without a Priest then a Chanter becomes mush more useful.

 

My current team on PotD is a four man squad - Juggernaut 3.0 Monk, Pellaginna (Strike hard hammer and Outworn Buckler), Devil (starcaller flail and balgrdr shield) and Kana (weapon and shield). The whole team is durable so time in combat is not a problem. The two endurance regen auras keep everyone topped off on endurance, LoH is hardly used. Chanters have a lot of flexibility in picking their talents so they can grab a few cross class ones like Gallant's Focus and the Druid deflection debuff. They also have time at the start of combat to cast.

 

For chants I use the +25% fire lash weaved in with the frighten, Dragon Thrash and the damage shield. This keeps the fire lash up 90%+ of the time. This greatly increases the damage output of the Juggernaut and the Devil, works well with Pellaginna as well with Scion of Flame.

 

For invocations the level two paralyze lasts a really long time in a good sized area. Another great thing is the invocations are all foe only so you can blast away without concern.

 

It really comes down to playstyle.

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A high level chanter with max MIG and INT and The Dragon Thrashed is the best to clear mobs and adds. Tons of damage, hughe AoE. You can put him in the midst of the crowd and cast withdraw on him and he will still burn and slash everything. It's the only char with which I'm able to do all the bounties solo just by walking into their midst. He can be a great alternative to a paladin (there are chants that can mimic Zealous Endurance and Zealous Charge, he can raise defenses, can heal and revive). And nowadays - with brisk recitation, the invocations also come quickly enough. A high chanter with lvl-1-chants can paralyze-lock whole groups. I think chanters are great. 


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The main problem I have with using chanters is that they are fairly static class who benefits from stalling and kiting disproportionately.  Generally any fight you have with them it is better to have your party run around until your phrases are full using level 1 or the rime phrase. Their design is boring for me to play personally.  I think it would help if there were a higher cap on the phrase counter so I could save up more to use when needed in a fight and possibly start a fight with a number of phrases like cipher and focus.  Also, it would be nice if their summons scaled to match their enemy counterparts in POTD, as it stands they have their normal stats.

 

I think that is pretty similar to your concerns, with the cheesing and all. I agree they have some very strong abilities but a lot of times they seem either very overpowered or useless.  Other than that I just find it annoying when they get interrupted, stunned, charmed, etc resetting or stalling their current phrase which is more frustrating with some of the longer phrase times. 

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A high level chanter with max MIG and INT and The Dragon Thrashed is the best to clear mobs and adds. Tons of damage, hughe AoE. You can put him in the midst of the crowd and cast withdraw on him and he will still burn and slash everything. It's the only char with which I'm able to do all the bounties solo just by walking into their midst. He can be a great alternative to a paladin (there are chants that can mimic Zealous Endurance and Zealous Charge, he can raise defenses, can heal and revive). And nowadays - with brisk recitation, the invocations also come quickly enough. A high chanter with lvl-1-chants can paralyze-lock whole groups. I think chanters are great. 

 

I agree they're great for clearing mobs, and for soloing anything in an open space. Maybe it's because I've always used one that I'm taking that for granted at this point, but most of the average trash mob groups have always been more a matter of how conveniently you want to kill them/how often you want to rest than any real challenge. And the way you defeat them with a Chanter is, as nem0 above said, run around them in circles for awhile until you can summon (or paralyze). Gets old fast.

 

And I have trouble seeing that as enough value. I'm always tempted to sit my Chanter out on boss fights in favor of another caster or tanky but still high damage melee. Chanters don't contribute enough to the important opening strategy and the Vancian casters can use several more powerful spells by the time a Chanter has only used a single Invocation.

 

Didn't know Chants worked through withdraw though, that's cheesy as hell. I mean... withdraw has always been cheesy, but that a class can use their highest damage ability right through it strikes me as off.

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There is a healing invocation for chanters also their dots can be very useful in order to trigger multiple ticks of combusting wounds(since it will tick from each dot and all ticks stack and you can just give the ring to the chanter to cast it), they can be durable while providing nice buffs/debuffs constantly, they are my go-to offtanks for quite some time.

 

Is combusting wounds good now? It was considered broken and terrible for a long time(DRs negated it and/or it was just not functioning) didn't know that changed. Still, there are way better/faster ticking DoTs than a Chanter's.

 

It's ok-ish pile up enough dot's on target and it's a decent amount of extra damage source, it does work and it ticks out of any source of damage dot or direct but it will show only on screen and not on the combat log. It's mostly useful for long fights. With chanter you can gain from 2 up to 4 ticks per 3 sec due to double dragon chant stacking.

 

My party consists of wizard(dps,cc), cipher(melee, dps, cc), paladin(tank, support), priest(support), chanter(off-tank, support), druid(dps, cc). Usually the chanter holds the frontline with the paladin and the cipher(carefully positioned for beam attacks), I find it hard to replace him with another class for the given role(frontline support) since he provides me with a rich array of tools(chants, summons, invocations) while at the same time he can be sturdy enough to hold the line while my wizard casts safely from the backline.

 

However in the lategame when paladin gains sacred immolation perhaps double paladin might be preferable to chanter + paladin.

Edited by Vorad

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To be honest it could be a play style issue more than anything else.... maybe they just don't suit your style?

I find them really useful. Yes there are classes which are better specialists. But chanters do everything and they do it well.

They make good tanks. At high level they do a reasonable amount of damage with the dragon chant. And the ice invocation is absolutely crazy. The stun and paralyze invocations are also pretty reliable.

The buffs are great, in essence they are free, as in there is no real cost to using them. Unlike any of the vancian casters. And a paladin is limited to either an accuracy buff, damage reduction or speed, you can only pick one. I'd also say that the damage reduction chant is fantastic. In fact I find chanters much better than Paladins at buffing a party.

Of course Paladins have other advantages....

So overall while they may be a jack of all trades, they are a good jack of all trades....

 

The biggest issue with chanters though is they are fairly understated, they just go about their business quietly and efficiently whereas other classes are far flashier. That makes it difficult to judge their worth. I think of chanters as the bass guitar players in a band. You have all the glory boys like the lead guitarists wailing away but the rhythm section is doing all the heavy lifting....


"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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The problem is that the play style of many players don't fit with chanters at all. This is the main reason. If you like to melt every encounter with vancian casters, definitively a chanter is not for you. If you have a chanter, build your party around it. Zealous endurance + plate armor even on your casters, weapon + shield style. It slow your battles but that's the point.

 

There are invocations/chant that are class defining:

- Invocations: Reny daret, Ogres, At the sound of his voice (bread&butter of a chanter the entire game), Come & come, Rise again.

- Chants: The harbinger's doom (early game), Sure Handed, The dragon thrashed.

 

The trick is to manage your chants properly. Late game with recitation brisk you should chant five level 1 in a row to summon ogres and then change to 2x dragon thrashed. Mixing dragon thrashed with a level 1 chant is also an option. Wizards & druids can have very good use of their offensive spells with a chanter in the group. At the sound of his voice + reflex damaging spell is a fest of criticals. Chanters are also very good scroll users because they have nothing to do meanwhile.

 

And if you have a ranger or wizard this is another reason to have one in your group. Come & Come and Dragron thrashed are DOT effects (Predator's sense + combusting wounds).

Edited by indika_tates

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I feel their problem is that while they have a lot of chants that might be good on paper, in practice they'll only end up using one or two at most, so Dragon Trashed and maybe Ila if you use a lot of ranged weapons, since those are objectively the best, and mixing in another phrase would dismish their effectivenes. This doesn't necesarily make them bad, just kind of boring.

 

Same for their spells really, while they have some fun options there, they rarely beat just summoning two ogres and call it a day.

Edited by falchen

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I like to have longer fights with sturdier party members (who don't die quickly). So a chanter is great for this because the slowness of my fights is a plus for them. And you all forgot on of the most powerful weapon of chanters which they can have from level 1 on and only costs 3 phrases: White Worms. This thing is absolutely devastating even if you only have one chanter. With more than one it gets absurd. You just have to build around the fact that you have to pile up corpses and don't reload. And turn off the gib option (gib=no corpse). I would say that the high level chanter is one of the most powerful chars there is. And if you use more than one the usefulness acually rises expotentially. Ancient Memory + Beloved Spirits + Veteran's Recovery + max PER + six times Dragon Thrashed melts everything while you will have a very high regeneration rate - you won't go down. Even Dragons will go down after some time if you manage to cc them. Six times Damage Shield makes you near invulnerable (180 damage shield). You think it gets suppressed, but as soon as the first 30 damage are used up the next shield takes it's place.

Edited by Boeroer

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Regarding starting post:

 

I will disagree on damage department and lack of contribution to the bursting phase, just because of the Aefyllath chant. Provided every team member already has a lash, the chant adds 20% to the damage output of every team member.

Also White-Worms/Seven-Nights on paralyzed or even better petrified targets is usually a quite pleasant experience.

 

And will agree completely on Summons and Debuffs.

 

"There are 10 mobs. After 12s there are 1-2 last one standing. AI casts a summoning invocation. And combat ends."

The above scenario happened way to often with Kana. In a six-man party, summons come too late in easy-medium encounters. Are are close to useless in the dragon fights, dying like flies. And I have a strong impression that the more creatures there are close to the dragon, the higher chance for the dragon breath there is.

 

As for debuffs, you pretty much nailed it with the "they're not on demand". There are many enemies in this game that have a set preference to go for the squishies. Cean Gwlas and monks that are teleporting to your backline from the start, need to be controlled asap. And.. cipher can do it. Wizard can do it. Priest can prone them or contribute via increasing defenses/withdrawal. But chanter.. right when the necessity is there, can't. He has to build the chants first.

 

Tbh, I would salute a change that would let chanters start with chant counter already set to 3; but tweak summoning invocations, such that they require at least 10s of combat.

Edited by MaxQuest

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I agree on the summons - for my playstyle they are totally useless and therefore... I never use them. ;)

 

And it's true that the CC part of chanters needs way more planning and tactics than with the usual "I'll cast it in your face NOW!" cc guy.

But once the phrase counter hits 4 and you can cone-paralyze nearly all enemies (and do this over and over again if you have to) the chanter makes most encounters easy. It is true that this is of no use at the start of the fight. But you can overcome this if you drag enemies towards your group (if your chanter is the only guy who can do cc). It's a bit annoying but you can work around it.

Other classes on the other hand have no means whatsoever of doing great (AoE) damage, (AoE) CC, healing, revival, boosting defenses and whatnot all at the same time. Nobody complains that a dps rogue can't do any good cc or drops dead all the time. A tanky chanter however can do lots of dps (chaining Dragon Thrashed doe more damage than Sacred Immolation - in a bigger area) while also being able to buff and revive and cc. I don't understand what's to complain about - I mean if you look at it impartially. You can hate him or like him or just feeling "so-so" - but I don't think you can say he's weak or boring or something like that. 


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I personally find chanters only good for tanking , they make decent tanks with aggro they get from damage chants , and their Invocations are good to seal the battle , other than that this class is utterly boring , tho their buffs sometimes are too hard to pass when making a party composition , and they do their tanking better than any other class so i find myself using chanter tank quite often 

Edited by Blunderboss

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I agree on the summons - for my playstyle they are totally useless and therefore... I never use them. ;)

Yeah. Summons are great for solo runs. But in a well-put full party they are kinda lackluster...

 

Other classes on the other hand have no means whatsoever of doing great (AoE) damage, (AoE) CC, healing, revival, boosting defenses and whatnot all at the same time.

At the same time, hmm, indeed not. But a max-might moon godlike priest, scrolling paladin, or a barbarian with stunning weapons and revival scrolls, are somewhat close to that ^^

 

A tanky chanter however can do lots of dps [...]. I don't understand what's to complain about - I mean if you look at it impartially.

I can totally see how a a chanter can work as a sturdy dps frontliner with high AoE damage, adds offtanking and occasional cc/revivals. And your Drake Ambassador build optimally capitalizes on it.

 

My gripe is that it is quite hard to come with other optimal ways to play him. I mean, not just viable, but optimal, when everything fits just well together.

For example: I already have enough dps in my party, and I want to have Aefyllath and probably even Sure-Handed buffing my group. And that's where the non-optimality starts; if chanter is not going to deal damage on his own, rising Might is a no go. Also he either has to shift from off-tanking to main-tanking to free the offtank dps slot; or provide decent and reliable cc in order to save the backline against teleporting enemies. But, as a main-tank he will struggle to solo hold against harder enemies, read dragons. At least not with that fortitude and health-per-endurance. Also sending him away, will lead to chants being out of reach. So it remains to play him akin to a wizard control-freak. But can he beat the tankiness of such wizard, debuffing provided via Ryngrym spells, Miasma and Blackened Sight, and cc provided by Shadowflame, Slumber or Gaze of Adragan?

 

You can hate him or like him or just feeling "so-so" - but I don't think you can say he's weak or boring or something like that.

I like him for the damage and buffs he brings to the group. For his ability to do stuff without much supervision. And I hate him for my inability to come with an optimal build around Aefyllath, and not Dragon-Thrashed. Edited by MaxQuest

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Well, a chanter with Aefyllath and Sure-Handed Ila is great for any party that relies on ranged combat. It is still a very powerful playstyle to combine high movement speed with ranged weapons and shot on the run. That chanter adds a lot of damage with Aefyllath - since not only ranged weapons get buffed but also spells, scrolls and such (people tend to overlook that - it's superpowerful). And besides that he speeds up your shooting and reloading. And apart from that, he can put out a nice invocation from time to time (see it as a bonus). There's no other character who can do this for the whole party. And he himself will do good damage, too. Of course, he doen't have fancy +dmg abilities himself, but withoput him all the speedup and +burn dfamage magic won't happen at all.

If you give him Scion of Flames, Arms Bearer, Quick Switch and four arquebuses you can watch him vaporizing enemies while Aefyllath is on - and once his last gun was fired he profits from the reload speedup.

You could even give him all fire spellbind items (meaning 10 fireballs and 6 Sunlances per rest) and combine this with Aefyllath. He will do more damage with that than any wizard while buffing the whole party damage AND speedup their shots. I think this is quite good without using the Dragon Thrashed.

Edited by Boeroer

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Well, a chanter with Aefyllath and Sure-Handed Ila is great for any party that relies on ranged combat. It is still a very powerful playstyle to combine high movement speed with ranged weapons and shot on the run. That chanter adds a lot of damage with Aefyllath - since not only ranged weapons get buffed but also spells, scrolls and such.

That's close to how I used him in my previous run ;)

Having two ranged ciphers, stormcaller ranger and ranged Pallegina. With Kana on offtanking and buffing duty, via Aefyllath, Sure-Handed and lots of scrolls. I need to say, ciphers were especially happy, due to extra focus and more damage on all the detonates and waves they were chaining. Basically it was a great, high alpha-strike, low-maintenance party.

 

But there were few rough moments:

- chanter being melee, required all backline coming closer

- when he was engaged in the front; and some of the enemies were teleporting to squishies, there were moments when chosing to come closer would result in disengagement hits.

- plate armor and below average dex, were resulting in slow scroll buffing

 

I had an idea of making him ranged then and change places with Pallegina (once she alpha-strikes). But didn't think of Quick Switch.

That's indeed close to an optimal build :)

Just.. gonna think if I'm ok with extra supervision it requires.

Edited by MaxQuest

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Yeah - it's a pain in the a** maintenance wise. :)

 

By the way: I meant an all ranged party that kites and shoots. No desginated tanks or offtanks whatsoever. Zealous Charge + Shot on the Run plus the chanter's goodies is very powerful in open terrain. In close quarters you have to switch from shooting to tanking with some of your "rangers", but that's not much of a problem. For example a fighter can be a nice ranged dps who can easily switch to tanking mode. Same with paladins and rangers - if you don't build glass cannons of course.

But most of the time you can just keep shooting if your CC lands.

Edited by Boeroer

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By the way: I meant an all ranged party that kites and shoots. No desginated tanks or offtanks whatsoever. Zealous Charge + Shot on the Run plus the chanter's goodies is very powerful in open terrain.

The main trick probably is to not run into another pack of enemies ))

 

That's an interesting style. But I came to really love the 'stun-them-and-decimate-em' approach.

Something with a stunning barbarian, interdiction/proning priest, borresaine cipher, pale-shades blasting wizard, and extra cipher for even more paralyzes/prones/saving charms. Disabled enemies just can't say no :)

 

My interest in this topic, was partially related to trying to see if a chanter could take the place of main tank in such a group, the spot where I currently have an orlan pala in a variation of pillardin build. But I will probably leave it as is, as I will need the paladin for dragon tanking.

We need a new order! Something something with Aefyllath-like effect on Flames of Devotions ))

Edited by MaxQuest

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Since Swaddling Sheet and Stormcaller ( also redisocvering blast with rod of pale shades ) , stunning them all seems kinda too easy, maybe next playtrough i wont use any of those :D

Edited by Blunderboss

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A speedy wizard with the Rod of Pale Shades (Spell Mastery Expose Vulnerabilites and Pull of Eora), Interrupting Blows and Mourning Gloves is really powerful without using a single per rest spell.

 

By the way it's perfectly cool to use a ranger with Swift Aim + Driving Flight and Golden Gaze to proc Expose Vulnerabilitiies. ;)

Edited by Boeroer
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A speedy wizard with the Rod of Pale Shades (Spell Mastery Expose Vulnerabilites and Pull of Eora), Interrupting Blows and Mourning Gloves is really powerful without using a single per rest spell.

 

By the way it's perfectly cool to use a ranger with Swift Aim + Driving Flight and Golden Gaze to proc Expose Vulnerabilitiies. ;)

Assuming ranger is procing Expose Vulnerabilities i would go for Pull of Eora - Debuff with Rod of Pale Shades - into Minor Blights madness :D

During my playtrough with blaster i havent used Minor Blights much , but whenever i did it felt ... too strong ? 

Edited by Blunderboss

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A speedy wizard with the Rod of Pale Shades (Spell Mastery Expose Vulnerabilites and Pull of Eora), Interrupting Blows and Mourning Gloves is really powerful without using a single per rest spell.

 

By the way it's perfectly cool to use a ranger with Swift Aim + Driving Flight and Golden Gaze to proc Expose Vulnerabilitiies. ;)

Assuming ranger is procing Expose Vulnerabilities i would go for Pull of Eora - Debuff with Rod of Pale Shades - into Minor Blights madness :D

During my playtrough with blaster i havent used Minor Blights much , but whenever i did it felt ... too strong ? 

 

It's even better if you land a combusting wounds before Blights, because then the multiple ticks per target from Blights + blast will procc the CW 2-3 hits and most mobs are dead.

Edited by Vorad

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