12 replies to this topic

[rapsam2003]

Any idea for a good Cipher Melee build. I'd prefer something in between glass cannon and uber-health. I want medium survivability, solid damage, and prefer to use Estocs. 

 

Suggestions? 

[MaxQuest]

My current MC is a melee cipher. And tbh having great fun with him.

First: stats. I went with 16/9/13/18/15/7. (but I still slightly adjust them on the run)
Initially I had higher base resolve, and started with padded armor and 1h+shield. But, quickly noticed that deflection doesn't make a big deal; and I better have higher DR against lightly hitting mobs, and just paralyze/charm the hard hitters.
So I switched to plate armor and dw sabres. That way the character hits as often as if he would be naked but with a single weapon.

Reason for sabres as the weapon of choice is their higher base damage, which unlike DR bypass, nicely scales with soul ship and weapon quality enchants. Not saying that estocs are bad, but you can view them more as early game weapons. While Bittercut, Resolution and Purgatory are the practically BIS options.

As for race, I've chosen Pale Elf. First, due to the extra DR which improves the situation with the health pool. Second due to aesthetics and RP point of view. But hearth orlan should work nicely as well; especially if you will go for annihilating sabres.

P.S. I've also added in my party a ranged cipher companion, which has the stats/weapons akin to my MC from the previous run. And watch them closely, competing for damage. So far, the melee one is slightly ahead, and that's provided that the ranged variant was quite a beast

Edited by MaxQuest, 25 April 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[rapsam2003]

That all makes sense to me. 

I'll try it with Estocs for early game and switch to dw sabres later on. For race, I've really always liked Death Godlike, so I think I'll stick with that. 

 

Thanks for the help!

[indika_tates]

Grieving mother has nice stats for a melee cipher. Might is not as important for a melee cipher as it may appear. With biting whip any weapon will have +40% dmg bonus + enchantment + lash. So for me something like this works:

 

10 Mig

10 Con

Max Dex

10 Per

Max Int

10 Resolve

 

As talents I usually choose biting whip, sword and shield style, one handed style, apprentice sneak attack and vulnerable attack. With zealous focus is a 45% graze-to-hit conversion. With resolution it raises to 65%. Sword of daenysis is also a good choice. Starting a battle with interdiction + psychovampiric shield is enough to buff deflection to a decent level. Late game with retaliation items you'll have more focus that you can spend. For this kind of build, humans are the best choice IMO. Having +7 accuracy and +15% dmg for 30 seconds +- is invaluable and you can cheese it a bit if you have a paladin in your party.

Edited by indika_tates, 25 April 2016 - 12:56 PM.

[KDubya]

Grieving mother has nice stats for a melee cipher. Might is not as important for a melee cipher as it may appear. With biting whip any weapon will have +40% dmg bonus + enchantment + lash. So for me something like this works:

 

10 Mig

10 Con

Max Dex

10 Per

Max Int

10 Resolve

 

As talents I usually choose biting whip, sword and shield style, one handed style, apprentice sneak attack and vulnerable attack. With zealous focus is a 45% graze-to-hit conversion. With resolution it raises to 65%. Sword of daenysis is also a good choice. Starting a battle with interdiction + psychovampiric shield is enough to buff deflection to a decent level. Late game with retaliation items you'll have more focus that you can spend. For this kind of build, humans are the best choice IMO. Having +7 accuracy and +15% dmg for 30 seconds +- is invaluable and you can cheese it a bit if you have a paladin in your party.

 

Retaliation no longer gets you focus.

 

Might might not have as big of an effect on your weapon damage due to your +40% from whips but it is still the only way to up the damage on your spells. If you will be using spells for damage you'll want more Might. If you will primarily be doing CC, buffs and debuffs then Might can be kept at base 10.

[Boeroer]

I think estocs are a solid choice for a melee cipher. Most melee ciphers need thicker armor and not too low endurance - or they will drop dead when the enemy looks at them. If you want more damage and less sturdyness while still using melee weapons (normally gives you more focus) then reach weapons are good. Hitting from the second row is a save bet - and since most of your damage and cc spells are foe only this is a good synergy.

[Blunderboss]

For melee dual-wielders ( or 2 handed uses ) i like to go with Sanguine Plate  gives the sturdiness you need and compensates for its high recovery penalty with built in frenzy  .

Edited by Blunderboss, 26 April 2016 - 02:28 AM.

[Vorad]

You could use bittercut and small shield with sanguine plate + shoed in faith. It has decen't survivability and decent damage due to higher base damage of the sabre with corrode main type. Latter on you can duplicate bittercut with mold and go dual if you prefer.

[MaxQuest]

Might might not have as big of an effect on your weapon damage due to your +40% from whips but it is still the only way to up the damage on your spells. If you will be using spells for damage you'll want more Might. If you will primarily be doing CC, buffs and debuffs then Might can be kept at base 10.

Exactly! 
The more I think about it, the more I find it most optimal to have two ciphers. One more damage oriented, another slightly more inclined for cc. Which is which, mostly depends on the weapon they are going to use:
- Dulcanale? CC oriented, with maxed DEX/PER/INT.
- Blunderbuss? Dmg oriented, with maxed MIG/PER/DEX.
- Warbow? Dmg oriented, with maxed MIG/DEX, and maxed PER if it is Borresaine/Sabra Marie.
- Bittercut? Dmg oriented, with maxed MIG/DEX
- Purgatory? CC oriented, with maxed PER/DEX, high INT
- Resolution? a mix between the last two options
You got the idea.
 
Worth noting that Estocs have the same attack and recovery durations as a sabre. (38 + 47 respectively)
But how good are they? Lets do some math:

Spoiler

Unbuffed:
 
- Clothing + 1xEstoc: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 85/d frames | + 5 DR bypass
- Clothing + 1xBotEP: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 76/d frames | + 5 DR bypass
- Clothing + 1xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 85/d frames | + 12 acc
- Clothing + Sb+Shld: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 85/d frames | + shield bonuses
- Clothing + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 61/d frames
 
where: 
c = 0.9 (graze, whip, 10 might) .. 3.51 (crit, whip, 22 might, superb, anihilation, merc.hand)
d = dex bonus
 
- Plate + 1xEstoc: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 108/d frames
- Plate + 1xBotEP: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 99/d frames
- Plate + 1xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 108/d frames
- Plate + Sb+Shld: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 108/d frames
- Plate + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 85/d frames
 
 
Geared: (15% gloves, 15% durganized weapon) = 1.32 
(plus durganized armor and 15% durganized shield if any)
 
- Clothing + 1xEstoc: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 70/d frames
- Clothing + 1xBotEP: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 58/d frames
- Clothing + 1xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 70/d frames
- Clothing + Sb+Shld: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 61/d frames
- Clothing + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 46/d frames
 
- Plate + 1xEstoc: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 86/d frames
- Plate + 1xBotEP: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 74/d frames
- Plate + 1xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 86/d frames
- Plate + Sb+Shld: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 77/d frames
- Plate + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 63/d frames
- Plate + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 54/d frames | if with Two-Weapon Style
 
 
Geared and Buffed: (50% Daom, 15% gloves, 15% durganized weapon) = 1.98 
(plus durganized armor and 15% durganized shield if any)
 
- Clothing + 1xEstoc: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 39/d frames
- Clothing + 1xBotEP: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 38/d frames
- Clothing + 1xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 39/d frames
- Clothing + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 38/d frames
 
- Plate + 1xEstoc: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 55/d frames
- Plate + 1xBotEP: c * (14 - 20) dmg every 38/d frames
- Plate + 1xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 55/d frames + 12 acc
- Plate + Sb+Shld: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 41/d frames + shield bonuses
- Plate + 2xSabre: c * (13 - 19) dmg every 38/d frames

So what can we conclude, provided that we need some tankiness?
In early game, the winners are: dw sabres and estoc. Once you durganize everything, you either better have Blade of the Endless Paths already, or keep using dw sabres with TWS talent.
And in the late game, it is: 
- 1h sabre if you can afford safely running in a robe with 1h sabre; which probably not, so:
- dw sabres if you are not going to use daom/time parasite; otherwise:
- blade of the endless paths
- or [1h sabre + shield], if you are ok with ~5-10% less damage and need some extra tankiness

 

Retaliation no longer gets you focus.

To sumarize, what are current ways to increase focus generation?
- Higher physical dps (obviously)
- Non-raw lash
- Aefyllath chant
- Draining Whip talent
- Talisman of the Unconquerable
- Spark the Souls of the Righteous
- Attacking petrified targets
- Side damage from Detonate (unless it was fixed together with Amplified Thrust)
Anything else?

Edited by MaxQuest, 26 April 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[Blunderboss]

I kinda agree that if you want to experience ciphers real power you want 2 of them , or the cipher ends up in a supportive role as they cant use their op abilities on themselves .

 

Best way i found to increase ciphers Focus Generation ( except the obvious Might,  Draining Whip and Talisman ) is stacking +Damage Items ( +Ranged Damage or + Melee Damage and + Damage to Flanked targets ) .

Cipher's Phantom Foes gives most reliable flanking in game , you can stack survival to give +30% damage to flanked targets and using some item will give you another 10% . 

Consider that all the abilities that increase focus gain only work on 33% of the damage i believe stacking damage modifiers is better than Focus Gain modifiers , for example on ranged cipher i would use Cloak that gives +10% ranged damage instead of Talisman that gives more focus , even if i loose some focus ( not sure if you do tho , needs to be counted ) i gain pure damage in the first place 

Edited by Blunderboss, 26 April 2016 - 06:57 AM.

[Boeroer]

I'm just playing around with my unarmed twin ciphers and did cast recall agony. I have the impression that it's damage generates focus for you. Could that be?

[Braven]

The level 2 vampiric shield power is good for melee. Provides 25 deflection. I recommend the usual high might/INT combined with regeneration equipment (shod in faith, veterans recovery, healing multipliers, etc). Those help survivaliblity without harming attacking power. Perception is also good since most powers target enemy defenses and it is hard to otherwise raise spell accuracy.

Edited by Braven, 26 April 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[Boeroer]

Psychovampiric Shield is really help- and powerful in the early game. +25 at low levels is huge. Later on I skip it most of the time because you'll have more endurance and +25 is less powerful (percentage wise) - but from early to mid game it is really great.