Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear RELEASED

[Hurlshort]

Looks like you're talking about yourself. I already posted back on Page 17 what I was saying. You refuse to acknowledge those posts or even quote them. aluminiutrioxid explained quite eloquently what I was getting at and you still admit you don't understand. I then try and get this back on topic and no you don't want to give up whatever you're arguing about. You're hopeless.

 

[Hiro Protagonist II]

aluminiutrioxid summarized your points.  thanks for him.  lord knows why you were so impotent. can't blame  aluminiutrioxid for your shortcomings. is not his argument. unfortunately, as we noted already, the summary of points didn't actual address our question(s).  we have attempted numerous times to clarify, but you are in pee-wee mode. 

 

and as to you trying to get back on topic, sod IS the topic.  you claim "out of place" for goblin while ignoring the long and storied history o' outta place for bg.  hp wants to change topics 'cause this one is uncomfortable?  HA! hp has been running away from the question you posed to hurlshot. kinda amusing actually.  is only off-topic when your responses is off-topic. weren't off-topic when we responded to aluminiutrioxid, but your post immediate preceding our post is indeed off-topic, as is ours.  

 

 

like links and quotes?

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85798-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-released/?p=1806059

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85798-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-released/?p=1806064

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85798-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-released/?p=1806066

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/85798-baldurs-gate-siege-of-dragonspear-released/?p=1806069

 

etc.

 

is all off-topic.  so, try not to be too hypocritical.

 

want back on-topic?  simple:

 

1) answer the question Gromnir posed

 

2) stop

 

if you can't do either, then you got nobody to blame but yourself. Gromnir is the one trying to get on-topic... your recent sod topic as a matter o' fact.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

*groan*

 

Nobody was required to summaries my points as my post was very basic and understandable to begin with. Although aluminiutrioxid did summarise my points, you still admitted you didn't understand. That says a lot about your inability to comprehend what was being said - even with someone else helping you to understand.

 

*chuckle*

 

And you still don't get what I said and what aluminiutrioxid summarised.  A very clear and concise summary which you can't understand. That's a fact that you've admitted. FACT.

 

You still continue to bring up things out of context. You admit you don't understand and then go out of context to try and prove some point you have. It's either intentional and you're trolling or you really are obtuse.

 

Speaking of hypocrites, go have a look in the mirror because you've been hypocritical for some time in this thread. And to get back on topic? You continue to refuse to acknowledge or even quote my posts that were in context. And you know it. That there is intentional and trolling. So it's obvious you have no issue with those posts that brought this up in the first place because you refuse to quote them. Otherwise you would. LMAO.

 

And those are on topic. Clearly pointing out your obtuse debating style and refusing to read my original posts on the subject.

 

*snort*

 

Also,

 

 

*chuckle*

Edited May 4, 2016 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Picture of Hurlshot

 

So Hurlshot, why did you selective quote and cut half my post off? Oh that's right you admitted you have no idea what the point was. Now you're just trolling this thread. Well done.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Hiro Protagonist II

[ShadySands]

I think I'm going to try an evil playthrough next

 

I've never done one because the options given always seem so silly like

1. Decline reward (nope)

2. Accept reward (nope)

3. Ask for more (nope)

4. Demand more  (maybe)

5. Kill puppy (what?)

[Gorth]

How many pages of circular logic and inconclusive bickering?...

 

 

(rhetorical question, don't answer).

 

Time to give it a break

 

[Bartimaeus]

Gorth, I don't think that's really fair. Calvin and Susie were usually much more rational and courteous to each other than this!

[Gorth]

...and . Lets see if that was the last time that was necessary.

[Humanoid]

You guys suck at selective quoting. Here's how it's done:

 

Gorth, I do usually court her!

[213374U]

I think I'm going to try an evil playthrough next

 

I've never done one because the options given always seem so silly like

1. Decline reward (nope)

2. Accept reward (nope)

3. Ask for more (nope)

4. Demand more (maybe)

5. Kill puppy (what?)

Well, evil options were always somewhat underwhelming in the originals. Through my obsessive reloading I found that some quests (dwarves, Bridgefort, druids) do offer satisfying alternatives for evil characters beyond "now give me everything or else"... even if dialogues leading to said alternatives aren't great.

 

The problem is finding a solid justification for an evil character to get involved to begin with. But again, that was already problematic in the originals as well... and to some degree also in pretty much every CRPG out there.

 

 

 

You suck

OMG, reported.

Edited May 4, 2016 by 213374U

[Bartimaeus]

You guys suck at selective quoting. Here's how it's done:

 

Gorth, I do usually court her!

 

I was wondering where the "her" came from: took me a few re-reads of my own post to figure that one out.

[Junai]

why exact is a tongue-in-cheek goblin opine 'bout racism more out-of-place in a story set within the sword coast o' the forgotten realms than is peter of the north, a woodsman who "knows how to handle himself," lecturing us 'bout wood and subterranean trees?"

 

 HA! Good Fun!

 

 

If you take all the interviews with the developers and the rest of the content into account, together with the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games, you'll see that the goblin ain't all that tongue-in-cheek. The *rest* of the setting is however, or at least as I see it, was never intended to be an educational tool. That's why the goblin and the rest of the new content is out of place.

 

If you'll allow me to illustrate..

 

I got together with a few old friends for a DD session a couple of years ago. We all agreed we were getting too old for roleplaying games, but we played DD and had some fun. Brought a few beers of course. As you can imagine, this wasn't much of a roleplaying session.. meta gaming, in and out of character, RL talk, and a few good laughs. Mostly an excuse to meet and chat. At one point the DM's wife walks in, hands us a few cupcakes she had made, and tells us to be good boys and make friends with the bad guys! She was on the way to the bathroom to give the toddler a bath before bedtime. As you can probably understand, we broke into laughter and quickly packed up. After half an hour of acceptable grown-up talk, we decided to switch to cards and Scotch.

 

You see, Amber Scott, with her sjw nonsense, is like having your mother walk in during your DD session telling you to grow up. I can accept that with a chuckle, and uninstall the game. Or not buy it at all. But Beamdog must realize they aren't going to sell any games this way. If Trent and his crew think they can forcefeed old BG fans some political bollox via a computer game, and thereby.. teach or raise us, they're seriously deluded. You can call it art if you want to, and insist that the writers are within their rights to do this, but when the fans laugh their asses off and criticize Beamdog, you can't possibly call that unfair. Trying to skool grown men, and then delete citicism on the Steam and GoG boards when fans criticize them, is the behaviour of a complete nincompoop. And anyone who tries to defend them ends up in the same camp, imho.

 

Immature sex jokes, or the option to assist Shadow Druids because of their nice Aloe Vera balm, might be out of place, but it's accepted with a snicker. Most people draw the line when the wife walks in to teach you about values however.

 

 

J.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games

 

 

 

Sorry, but... what?

[rjshae]

 

 

the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games

 

 

Sorry, but... what?

 

Is that what the crafting system is for?

[Zoraptor]

 

 

the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games

 

 

 

Sorry, but... what?

 

 

While you wouldn't in a million years use SoD/ BG for that purpose using computer games to teach children about real life is certainly a thing every bit as much as using childrens' TV programmes is and has been. Idea is of course to combine the vegetable of learning with the ice cream of entertainment. When Thomas learns that it's nice to share his coal with Gordon or that if you have a heavy load it's better to go slow and steady that is, after all, a life lesson whether it happens on tele or in a game.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

 

the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games

 

 

 

Sorry, but... what?

 

 

While you wouldn't in a million years use SoD/ BG for that purpose using computer games to teach children about real life is certainly a thing every bit as much as using childrens' TV programmes is and has been. 

 

 

Yeah but Junai's post made it sound like there was a trend in gaming to shoehorn this stuff into games not aimed at children. Unless I misunderstood something.

[Gromnir]

 

 

the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games

 

 

 

Sorry, but... what?

 

am equal baffled.  

 

"If you take all the interviews with the developers and the rest of the content into account, together with the current trend to teach children about real life values via computer games, you'll see that the goblin ain't all that tongue-in-cheek."

 

regardless, if the only way we can find writer sin is to follow developer interviews and imagine an overarching conspiracy 'mongst game designers to use bg-style games to enforce values for kiddies (HA!), then am feeling little difficulty in recognizing the tongue-in-cheek quality o' the goblin... and a host o' other sod transgressions.

 

apparently gorth snipped somebody, which sounds painful... or perhaps obligatory if gorth is a mohel. regardless, we gotta be careful.  nevertheless, w/o directing comments at anybody in particular, one wonders what is the threshold for out of place or inappropriate or immersion-breaking.  bg went for the cheap laugh as often as any game we can recollect save for fallout 2. were multiple mechanics used to make sure that players were aware that the developers did not take the sword coast setting particular serious. the thing is, while few here is aware, there were much negative board feedback regarding bg levels o' camp, quirk and irreverence.  obviously with the blair witch stuff and neb's head, the developers did not completely stop indulging their inner teen.  even so, bioware scaled back the out of place encounters and dialogues when building bg2.  'course then the developers had to deal with players complaining 'bout the assault to their immersion via the bg2 npc contest winners as well as the numerous boardie cameos.  can't help but feel a bit bad for the developers given how difficult it appears to be to judge that which is out of place. regardless, we can understand sod developer consternation regarding out of place, particularly if using bg as their guide.

 

is the actual problem as junai explains?  his view, which we disagree with, is nevertheless honest.  am believing that he is indeed genuine affronted by the goblin, but only given the context o' developer interviews and a belief that beamdog and others is attempting to force an sjw agenda down his gullet.  junai is being truthful 'bout why the goblin offends him personally.  is not interactivity or some other such nonsense.  the goblin is a symptom o' the disease, yes?  a rash might be incredible minor-- a simple allergic reaction.  might also be a symptom o' something life threatening.  where Gromnir sees a rash, junai sees leukemia? a rash can be funny, but leukemia is unlikely to produce a hearty guffaw, eh?  am thinking that junai is delusional, but he is being honest.

 

simple advice for developers: avoid particular hot topic issues.  doesn't seem that mechanics is the issue for folks like junai, so key is to avoid the wrong topics.  'course that has gotta be tough advice to take for folks who believe they got something worth saying.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Gromnir

[Junai]

regardless, if the only way we can find writer sin is to follow developer interviews and imagine an overarching conspiracy 'mongst game designers to use bg-style games to enforce values for kiddies (HA!), then am feeling little difficulty in recognizing the tongue-in-cheek quality o' the goblin... and a host o' other sod transgressions.

 

So the poorly written transgender character was not a joke, but the goblin was? Maybe Gromnir can keep better track of American and Canadian developers' attempts at humour, as he is english speaking and familiar with all the out-of-place jokes. Personally I just thought the writing was preachy and boring. What I read, anyway.

 

I'm not sure I want to use the term leukemia to describe the current trend. More like watering down the whiskey. Then again, with all the violence and misogyni in many computer games, maybe it's natural that Baldur's Gate received a trendy sjw makeover. And please don't pull the tiresome conspiracy card when there's no conspiracy. Many feminists loudly proclaim they want to teach us values and add more sjw content to games, including the writer(s) of SoD. It's all over teh Internetz.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/29/opinion/anita-sarkeesian-on-video-games-great-future.html

 

There's hardly a game these days without LGBT content, or a healthy mix of Caucasian, Afraican and Asian characters. Wasn't there some male man & dwarf lovemaking in Dragon Age? Is it necessary to add this stuff to every game? Now they're campaigning for a lesbian Disney princess?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/04/frozen-elsa-first-lesbian-disney-princess-lgbt

 

I don't mind if the progressives' and feminists' contribution helps end macho bs games like like GTA or COD. I never play FPS, and I don't even own a consol. But how they managed to find sexism in little old Baldur's Gate is beyond me.

 

J.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Junai

[BruceVC]

 

regardless, if the only way we can find writer sin is to follow developer interviews and imagine an overarching conspiracy 'mongst game designers to use bg-style games to enforce values for kiddies (HA!), then am feeling little difficulty in recognizing the tongue-in-cheek quality o' the goblin... and a host o' other sod transgressions.

 

S

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/29/opinion/anita-sarkeesian-on-video-games-great-future.html

 

 

No this link is outdated and the general message is misleading and spurious 

 

There is no Internet  campaign against white male gamers, yes there was some negativity through the likes of Anita but end of the day its not widespread and you must not believe everything people like Anita  say

 

But that has nothing to do with valid changes in some games to cater for inclusivity, for example  in games that offer Romance they should offer options for members of the  LGBT community around there Romance choices 

Edited May 5, 2016 by BruceVC

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

There's hardly a game these days without LGBT content, or a healthy mix of Caucasian, Afraican and Asian characters. Wasn't there some male man & dwarf lovemaking in Dragon Age? Is it necessary to add this stuff to every game?

 

 

I have a hard time imagining circumstances where it would be necessary to exclude it.

[BruceVC]

 

 

There's hardly a game these days without LGBT content, or a healthy mix of Caucasian, Afraican and Asian characters. Wasn't there some male man & dwarf lovemaking in Dragon Age? Is it necessary to add this stuff to every game?

 

 

I have a hard time imagining circumstances where it would be necessary to exclude it.

 

I agree with this sentiment, there is no reason to not make games more inclusive where applicable 

[Volourn]

"There is no Internet  campaign against white male gamers,"
 

Yes there is. Have youf orgotten all the spam about how white male gamers are all rapists, murderers, slavers, sexist, racist monsters who are worse than ISIS? Or 'Gamers Are Dead' and 'We Will Murder All Gamers and That's a  Good Thing'? LMAO

 

Don't be delusional.

 

  Nothjing wrong with a 'healthy mix' of  different  races nor do I mind  some dwarven lovin'. there should be more HOTTIE female dwarfs to sex up. We haven't gotten that yet.

 

But to claim that SJW nazis don't have an anti white male gamer agenda is  either flat out lying or delusionalism. Your pick.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

"There is no Internet  campaign against white male gamers,"

 

Yes there is. Have youf orgotten all the spam about how white male gamers are all rapists, murderers, slavers, sexist, racist monsters who are worse than ISIS? Or 'Gamers Are Dead' and 'We Will Murder All Gamers and That's a  Good Thing'? LMAO

 

Don't be delusional.

 

  Nothjing wrong with a 'healthy mix' of  different  races nor do I mind  some dwarven lovin'. there should be more HOTTIE female dwarfs to sex up. We haven't gotten that yet.

 

But to claim that SJW nazis don't have an anti white male gamer agenda is  either flat out lying or delusionalism. Your pick.

Yes you right, let me clarify

 

There is no effective  Internet  campaign against white male gamers, yes it is real but it doesn't have the real impact many people believe 

[Leferd]

I remember the good ol days when the token white male was a douche with a funny hat and weird accent.

 

#JadeEmpire4evahRomanceEndedWithA3some

[Gromnir]

 

regardless, if the only way we can find writer sin is to follow developer interviews and imagine an overarching conspiracy 'mongst game designers to use bg-style games to enforce values for kiddies (HA!), then am feeling little difficulty in recognizing the tongue-in-cheek quality o' the goblin... and a host o' other sod transgressions.

 

So the poorly written transgender character was not a joke, but the goblin was? Maybe Gromnir can keep better track of American and Canadian developers' attempts at humour, as he is english speaking and familiar with all the out-of-place jokes. Personally I just thought the writing was preachy and boring. What I read, anyway.

 

I'm not sure I want to use the term leukemia to describe the current trend. More like watering down the whiskey. Then again, with all the violence and misogyni in many computer games, maybe it's natural that Baldur's Gate received a trendy sjw makeover. And please don't pull the tiresome conspiracy card when there's no conspiracy. Many feminists loudly proclaim they want to teach us values and add more sjw content to games, including the writer(s) of SoD. It's all over teh Internetz.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/29/opinion/anita-sarkeesian-on-video-games-great-future.html

 

There's hardly a game these days without LGBT content, or a healthy mix of Caucasian, Afraican and Asian characters. Wasn't there some male man & dwarf lovemaking in Dragon Age? Is it necessary to add this stuff to every game? Now they're campaigning for a lesbian Disney princess?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/04/frozen-elsa-first-lesbian-disney-princess-lgbt

 

I don't mind if the progressives' and feminists' contribution helps end macho bs games like like GTA or COD. I never play FPS, and I don't even own a consol. But how they managed to find sexism in little old Baldur's Gate is beyond me.

 

J.

 

joke v. serious distinction matters not too much to us when is trivial. were trivial.  were like a minor rash.  also, is hardly impossible to be both a joke and serve some kinda goal to enlighten, yes?  am not seeing anything inherent funny 'bout a transgender character who is not obvious transgender until you push for information, at which point they share their tale o' hardships.  is nothing in the setup that strikes our funny bone. the presentation is awkward more than anything else... but definitely trivial.  on the other hand, a common speaking goblin playing the race-card doesn't make you believe the developers were trying for a joke? maybe gotta use words that include hard K-sounds? mukluk? kumquat? tough room. need oversized shoes and a floppy hat?

 

as for conspiracy, am pretty sure that it is a secret that developers is using bg style expansions to teach kids values.  is a secret that only j is aware o'.

 

but again, a writer who doesn't have a message that they try to work into their craft via means both subtle and salient is gonna be the exception.  how many song, movie and lit references need we include o' entertainers from various media who use their entertainment to promote a message before it sinks in that such is commonplace? entertainer with a message is the norm. if such proselytizing is done with skill, then for Gromnir to be offended, the message must be inherent vulgar.  birth of a nation?  if the message is the grandness o' the kkk, then am not caring 'bout craft.  even so, am doubting that junai is gonna place lgbt agenda on a similar level as kkk or nambla.  

 

similarly, if the craftsman's efforts to enlighten is incidental or trivial, then we have a hard time generating much venom. if such efforts detract from the narrative 'cause they is individual or collective distracting, then Gromnir will cry foul, but our complaint will be one o' craftsmanship and not the agenda itself.  by all accounts we has seen regarding sod, the agenda pushing efforts o' the LGBT Values & Moral Educational army were a minor inclusion.  would such efforts have offended junai if he did not read the developer interviews?  would the goblin comment have bothered junai if he did not envision a widespread conspiracy to educate children via games such as sod? 

 

out of place. junai is at least honest.  is not a rationalization o' fail that focuses on mechanics o' the included message.  and good on junai for not going that route.  the same mechanics were used w/o giving offense in bg.  nope, is the message itself that offends junai.  

 

we do agree with junai on one point: we didn't see noteworthy sexism in bg. as we noted elsewhere, the companion dialogues from bg that offend amber is little more than a collection o' catchphrases.  see portrayal o' jaheira or safana as shallow = yes.  see portrayal o' jaheira or safana as NOTEWORTHY sexist = no.  sure, one could argue that the femme fatale is an inherently sexist cliche, but to find any kinda meaningful sexism in the bg safana portrayal requires imagination and a personal agenda that has a person proverbial jumping at shadows.  is more than a little amusing that amber's actual fail were the same fail as that which plagues junai.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Junai]

 

 

 

There's hardly a game these days without LGBT content, or a healthy mix of Caucasian, Afraican and Asian characters. Wasn't there some male man & dwarf lovemaking in Dragon Age? Is it necessary to add this stuff to every game?

 

 

I have a hard time imagining circumstances where it would be necessary to exclude it.

 

I agree with this sentiment, there is no reason to not make games more inclusive where applicable 

 

 

If you two geniouses think adding animations of men passionately making love to hairy male fantasy-dwarves belong in any entertainment product, you have serious mental issues, and should be shipped off to the nearest psych ward immediately. 

 

You honestly believe Bioware is doing the gay community a favour by adding bizarre mockery like that? You think stuff like that is art on par with Priscilla the Desert Queen, Brokeback Mountain or My private Idahoe? You guys from Cleveland or something? You want your twelve year old sitting there watching that stuff? Maybe Canadian computer geeks *have* taught me something valuable, namely how much I disagree with their utterly misunderstood political correctness. Did anyone read the open letter from a trans woman to Amber? That should be enough to silence most sjws.

 

 

"as for conspiracy, am pretty sure that it is a secret that developers is using bg style expansions to teach kids values.  is a secret that only j is aware o'."

 

So who are they preaching to then? You? They've already stated they're proud to add sjw stuff. I'd hate to think they did it to teach the fans from the nineties anything. Those guys are in their late thirties by now. And yes, you're absolutely right, I'd probably see the goblin joke as trivial - funny even - if the whole project didn't have that preachy feel to it.

 

Anyway, probably best to stop before this devolves into two pages with Hiro-Gromnir you-said I-said monstrosity.

 

J.