Class balance.

[Crucis]

I'm not really getting 1v1's, but right now I don't see him winning those either. He joins the fray. N enemies realize he's the squishiest target and attack him. Good riddance. Swarmed like Heodan.

 

Having a blast with a different party though, essentially the same minus rogue plus barbarian. It's the first melee party I've had that's actually done something better than the Vancian squad did it.

 

I was having a similar problem later on in WM2 with my rogue.  In the Abbey, the monks invariably started going after my rogue, even though he was in back using a bow.  Seriously, he would be standing next to GM, and the monks cared more about the rogue than the cipher.  Go figure.  Yeah, I know, they were going after the "weakest" character, which probably meant the lowest HP character which may indeed have been my rogue who had a CON of 8. Oh well.

[sims796]

 

I suppose that all of the other barbarian abilities and talents beyond Frenzy are meant to further enhance barbarians.  But I have to say that i have a strong preference for talents and abilities that are passive and always on, or at least always on, when you choose to turn them on, like Vulnerable Attack.  I don't have this strong desire for warrior classes having piles of active, limited per-rest or per-encounter abilities as the means of enhancing the class.  Nor do I find a lack of such things boring.  My spellcasters eat up enough of my micromanagement bandwidth with their spells (aka their active abilities), without needing to pile on top of that with all of the melee characters being overloaded with them too.

 

Hah, preach it! I don't even allow auto casting of spells, so having to babysit the fighters is a pain at times.

Edited March 17, 2016 by sims796

[rheingold]

Not sure if you guys are putting your rogues in heavy armour? I found with max armour and taking all the defensive perks the rogue doesn't get targeted. The ai uses deflection and dr to decide who to lay the smack down on. Also boosts his survivability obviously. Take the get of jail free talents as well.

Also keeping them back for a moment before engaging. I haven't played a rogue on Potd but on hard a dual wield rogue is insane. And in my experience it definitely kills it's opponent before it's targeted.

[rheingold]

Just remembered take around 17 resolve as well...

[Blunderboss]

Full tank rogues are okay for solo i guess , but if u build them like this in 6 character party i believe slot is wasted,

However that is not needed , offensive built melee rogue can thrive in a party that has more melee bodies ( more than two tanks i meant ) as mentioned in other posts on the forum rangers pet help with that a lot , or having 2 tanks + 2 melee can solve your problems

Edited March 17, 2016 by Blunderboss

[omgFIREBALLS]

Not sure if you guys are putting your rogues in heavy armour? I found with max armour and taking all the defensive perks the rogue doesn't get targeted. The ai uses deflection and dr to decide who to lay the smack down on. Also boosts his survivability obviously. Take the get of jail free talents as well.

Also keeping them back for a moment before engaging. I haven't played a rogue on Potd but on hard a dual wield rogue is insane. And in my experience it definitely kills it's opponent before it's targeted.

Fourth panel, ignore the speech bubbles: http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20080104

 

Perhaps this works out as a strong character, but it's miles off the rogue fantasy for me. A rogue should be handling danger by being cunning, not by being durable. Abilities such as Shadowing Beyond are great, but 2/rest? No no.

[Elric Galad]

Totally agree with the later post.

 

Currently the rogue's power problem is comparison with ranger. Ranger and his pet both do about 50% of (melee) rogue's damage. Ranger does it from distance which is a big plus, and has lower risk cause only pet is on the front line.

 

Rogue is basically more at risk without greater reward.

 

I have no problem with rogue and ranger doing comparable sustained damage. But I think rogue should have more tricks to generate spike damage. That would be a True Difference. Shadowing beyond/backstab combo should be expanded.

 

Backstab could be like x2 multiplicative melee damage and ×1.5 ranged from stealth (no distance restrictive). Multiplicative. It should work better with dual wield (attack from stealth could be automatically upgraded to full attack or invisibility could wait a few s to be broken... boosted by Int to allow smart rogue.).

 

Shadow step could cause invisibility to allow backstab. Feint death auto-prone could be shortened. That would become true endgame abilities.

 

I persist : current rogue problem is comparison with ranger. Ranger got a crazy good endgame with twin arrows while rogues chained crappy abilities in WM I and II.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Elric Galad]

Barbarians face another problem with similar cause : no really good endgame abilities.

 

Barbarian is a class based on carnage. That's cool, provided you like it.

They are specialised in fighting hordes of ennemies : nothing wrong, it happens all the time, especially on PotD.

 

The problem is this is a bit situational. Not too much however.

 

But what makes things worse is the absence of good endgame abilities : from lvl 1 to 16, carnage stays the unique premium ability they have. There's a couple of nice ones like threatening presence, but nothing to really justify picking barbarian except carnage. They are just small bonuses.

 

My point is : carnage is a bit situational. Nothing that wrong. The absence of good abilities (especially engame ones) makes you rely a bit too much on it. Having a couple of other good tricks would make barbarian nicer to play (even if he still relies on carnage, because it's his defining trait).

 

I want to add that even barbarians and rogues are not bad. But they are a bit UP precisely because other (martial) classes were a bit UP too and were buffed later.

[Mocker22]

I've always felt the problem with barb is there is not enough focus on carnage. You get it, take accurate carnage, done. I think they should have talents hat enhance carnage in some way. Maybe make an offensive one that boosts dmg, and a defensive one that boosts interrupt or something.

[Crucis]

I've always felt the problem with barb is there is not enough focus on carnage. You get it, take accurate carnage, done. I think they should have talents hat enhance carnage in some way. Maybe make an offensive one that boosts dmg, and a defensive one that boosts interrupt or something.

 

Mocker, honestly, I don't like this entire AoE thing with barbs.  I believe that barbarians should be just like other melee warrior classes and focus on 1v1 combat, and that their class abilities should be focused around that.  I tend to think that their central ability should be Frenzy, not Carnage.  But that's just me.

 

Having said that, if they're going to stick with this (silly) AoE model of barbarians, it probably would be a good idea if carnage improved another time or two through the levels.

[rheingold]

Look I do think that balance is pretty good, but I do agree with El. Rogues and Barbs could stand to be buffed a bit. For me the issue is more a case of most of the other classes can be built different ways. So want a dps Mage? Fine, no problem. Want a combat mage, also no problem. Druids can be a tank, do dps and crowd control. Really all the others can fulfill multiple roles in a party. Rogues you can build realitively solid but they can never tank or do crowd control. Barbs can't do anything but carnage. Don't get me wrong I like rogues and love Barbs. But it would be nice if say a barb had some talents to do single target dps, or a rogue some crowd control. Wouldn't unbalance the game, it would just bring them more in line with the other classes ability to multi task.

[MaxQuest]

Rogues can now Sneak Attack off of Stun on Crit weapon effects.

Bashing now generates focus and procs carnage.

Vent Pick and Dragon's Maw Shield 'Spellchance' proc now works correctly.

Rogues and Barbs seem to be buffed a little in 3.02.

I do always have someone with Borresaine, Aedrin and stunning Cladhalíath. Meeting Deathblow conditionals will become easier.

As for barbarian, Dragon Maw shield suddenly becomes and interesting option due to mass-affliction with Taste of the Hunt. As well as the Vent Pick, which was suggested by Boeroer as soon as WM2 came up.

 

 

P.S. While druids were fix-nerfed a little, with: "Druid's Wildstrike no longer applies to spell damage while spiritshifted.".

Edited March 18, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

Also the mystic cloak now working could be seen as a buff.

 

I didn't want to use the cloak because it breaked the game.

 

Now, it simply enables an extra backstab.

[Mocker22]

Ya supposedly in 3.02 Bash and the proc on shields is going to work with carnage. If so I think a barb with Unlabored blade and dragon shield would be fun....great AoE dmg and should be tanky.

 

@Crucis....I definitely disagree...carnage is what makes barbs unique, without it they would be bland and too similar to a fighter imo. It would have to be a total revamp of the class and if Frenzy was the focus they would need to make it stack with other buffs or be very unique somehow.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Mocker22

[kvaak]

I don't really think barbarians need buffing. While you might argue smartbarians are nonsensical and dumb they're brutally effective when properly utilized. Glue some durgan steel on Tall Grass and you'll keep a massive number of enemies prone while easily outdamaging other melee classes via carnage. PotD has a huge number of enemies.

 

Even if you don't pump int you still get a huge number of procs from weapons like Grey Sleeper. If you give barbarians better single target damage they'll be the single most overpowered class in the game (minus wizards). Their entire "thing" is AoE, even the loading screen tips tell you that.

Edited March 18, 2016 by kvaak

[Elric Galad]

I don't think barbarians require more single target DPS.

 

But just a bit of alternate utilities as endgame abilities would be nice. Currently they... daze about as well as a level 1 wizard.

 

And as I said I don't think this is such a huge problem.

[kvaak]

I don't think barbarians require more single target DPS.

 

But just a bit of alternate utilities as endgame abilities would be nice. Currently they... daze about as well as a level 1 wizard.

 

And as I said I don't think this is such a huge problem.

 

Barbaric Yell, Threatening Presence, Barbaric Shout, Dragon Leap, Echoing Shout.

 

IMO those are plenty.

[Elric Galad]

Dazing like a lvl 1 wizard and weak shouts (too long to cast) don't exactly makes the class good.

 

I already quoted threatening presence as a good ability. But that's about it.

[kvaak]

Dazing like a lvl 1 wizard and weak shouts (too long to cast) don't exactly makes the class good.

 

I already quoted threatening presence as a good ability. But that's about it.

 

The colossal range/duration easily justify the shouts' cast time.

[Elric Galad]

Frightened may be the weakest of all status, and 12s, even with Int is not that much.

 

Terrified is not that better. Basically the duration and range are ok. Per rest is really annoying by the way.

 

Also there's a bunch of ennemies immuned to both.

 

Basically, I don't like barbarians trying to do casters'job in a less versatile and powerful way.

 

 

Threatening presence is nice because it's a passive with no time limit. THAT is something casters can't do.

 

Fast casting shouts would be nice as an unique advantage.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Elric Galad

[dam]

I think all classes are pretty much balanced and suits their role.

 

Barbarians and Rogues could get just a little more love because :

 

- Rogue DPS is currently a bit under Ranger's DPS shadow. Rogue should do more DPS with a relevent margin (as pet brings other utility). I don't think the current margin is that relevent.

 

- Barbarian is a bit a 1 trick carnage poney.

 

- Many abilities of rogues and barbarians are not that good.

 

 

But it is not that bad, and even classes mentioned above are ok with the right build and equipment.

 

Not all classes are strictly equal but all can fulfill their own purpose.

 

 

Please, what the hell kinda post is that.

 

I mean, really, "many abilities [...] are not that good." , that's your whole argument here ?

 

Perhaps you could detail which abilities and how they are not good ?

 

Every class has abilities that "are not good" to be honest.

 

 

 

While I agree rogues could use more love because they're super squishy for very questionable DPS relative to other classes, you really need to work on your argument here o_O

[dam]

 

I play mine as a flanker/ambusher with Äru Bekr and fast runner. Also give him sugar sometimes!

What difficulty are you playing? I always feel like my rogues get neutralized the moment enemies decide to target them. They'll lose the toe to toe fight, and if they try to escape the disengagement attack devastates them.

 

 

Get Hobble, Blind, and Sap, and you can 1v1 anyone.

As long as at least one, preferably 2 of those are available for the encounter

[Elric Galad]

 

 

I think all classes are pretty much balanced and suits their role.

 

Barbarians and Rogues could get just a little more love because :

 

- Rogue DPS is currently a bit under Ranger's DPS shadow. Rogue should do more DPS with a relevent margin (as pet brings other utility). I don't think the current margin is that relevent.

 

- Barbarian is a bit a 1 trick carnage poney.

 

- Many abilities of rogues and barbarians are not that good.

 

 

But it is not that bad, and even classes mentioned above are ok with the right build and equipment.

 

Not all classes are strictly equal but all can fulfill their own purpose.

Please, what the hell kinda post is that.

 

I mean, really, "many abilities [...] are not that good." , that's your whole argument here ?

 

Perhaps you could detail which abilities and how they are not good ?

 

Every class has abilities that "are not good" to be honest.

 

 

 

While I agree rogues could use more love because they're super squishy for very questionable DPS relative to other classes, you really need to work on your argument here o_O

You're right. I admit I've relied on what I said on previous threads, in particular, The Great Rogue Polishing Thread that I published some times ago.

 

I'm pretty happy that what I said in the rogue topic was (usually) approved by viewers. I'll try to group my views in a new thread soon, as my opinions about barbarians and rogues seem to be (mostly) shared.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Teioh_White]

Hmm...I agree that Barb's non-carnage abilities area all trash. I don't really agree they're an appreciable degree worse than any of the other martial classes. Carnage is just that nutty. They are ridiculously narrow in what they can contribute to a team though.

 

Rogue's are a little worse off. Doing 50%+ more single target melee damage is about their only schtick, which isn't as useful in this game as targeted fire on a back line target or trash cleaning potential. Unless we want to scroll spam, then weee, death blow Flame Cone spam or whatever. That's pretty nice.

[dam]

To be honest and without trying to appropriate the devs' thoughts on the matter, I do not think they care overmuch about class balance altogether.

 

I mean, as long as all classes are playable and at least able to complete the main storyline with an appropriate party, I would go as far as saying hey're OK.

 

Now obviously, some classes are much, much more "OK" than others, but is it really an issue in an offline, non competitive game ?

 

 

 

I, for one, have yet to find a class that cannot complete the game on Normal or Hard with a balanced party.

 

Let us, please, leave PotD out of the picture as it is an especially more challenging mode we actually elect to play.

 

 

Edit :

Admittedly, my melee rogue did very well in early and mid game, now she's fallen off so hard I actually keep her out of roughly 3/4 fight time, to ensure enemies have proper aggro and not too many more AOE nukes.

But then, she just tags along, finishes off weak targets and picks locks.

Edited March 21, 2016 by dam