what role do monks serve?

[deveroth]

I've been rolling with Zahua for a bit and am finding him ridiculously underwhelming in pretty much every aspect. What role are monks supposed to fill? So far his abilities are so basic and boring all he's doing is occasionally stunning (which other characters in my party can do) or increasing his attack rate (which is useless as far as I'm concerned). He's level 8, for the record. I just put him on aggressive, watch him use his underwhelming boring abilities and do underwhelming damage while taking STUPID amounts of damage. At this point in my game, there's nothing he can do that someone I'm not using cant also do, with the added benefit of not having to gain wounds first.

 

What are later monk abilities like? Do they become more distinct later? It seems like they're just underwhelming dps classes with no real unique abilities to distinguish them. As it is right now I'd MUCH rather replace Zahua with Pallegina or Kana, but can't cause I want to see his story.

[Phyriel]

I can't rly tell about story companions as with my first complete playthrough I opted for min-maxing self-made chars to learn about the game, mechanics and so on. In my eyes monk fullfill similar role to rogue although he's more tanky due to insane health pool thus require less babysitting, rogues on the other hand require a lot of setup for them to really shine, like enabling status effects on foes for sneak attacks... or even more status effects to enable devastating attacks, for me it was just too much hassle because in party with priest, tank wizard, cipher I had enough of micro to do so trying to squeeze the most out of rogue was a complete cluster**** for me. As to Monk tanking dmg, well the more dmg Monk takes the more dmg he deals due to wound mechanic, so thats what makes him interesting, you have to build around him with survival buffs so he takes dmg but sustain himself and destroy things. My favourite mechanic for Monk thus far is chanter phrase that makes Monk heal for 15% dmg he's doing and priest spell that makes char heal for like 5000 over 27 seconds after killing a target. With over 1800 hp my monk have at lvl 12 his endurance is constantly droping and toping but as long as he's not hard disabled by some **** he just carry my team beyond imagination. To give you example when I checked my stats on team, my ranger, that I build for a complete glass cannon had like 107k dmg done after 16h of playing. When I implemented Monk into my team at lvl 10 I think I played with him for next 6 hours and he catched up with my ranger O_o and my ranger is geared with Stormcaller so he's not like... bad.

 

P.S pre lvl 13 i think Monk is just autoattack destroyer that you have to babysit with buffs, sustain mechanics, disable immunities. But he gets cool ability later on that creates elemental copies of himself or sth like that;P haven't seen that yet tho;p

Edited March 8, 2016 by Phyriel

[KDubya]

You need to build him better, Zahua is a beast and can easily lead your party in damage.

 

Give him plate mail, use fists with dual spears on switch, take Peasant weapons, dual wield, Vulnerable Attack, Swift Strikes, Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel (or Stunning Blow) the ability that lets you toggle between defense and deflection, Savage Attack, the ability that gets you +10 defense when an effect expires, Apprentice Sneak Attack, Flagellant's Path, the Twins summoning.

 

Monks are monsters, set to Aggressive with defensive auto attacks and he will spend his wounds spamming Torment's Reach.

[MountainTiger]

Monk fists are amazing: you get to dual-wield fast weapons with high damage. You're stuck with one damage type and no enchantments, but they're still pretty great.

 

When it comes to dealing damage, attack speed boosts are really powerful. Swift Strikes is easy to sustain during a fight, since you only need one wound to activate it, and it also opens up Lightning Strikes, which lets you add a shocking lash while the Strikes are up. Since wounds are easy to come by later on, it's pretty easy to consistently keep Turning Wheel powered up for another lash effect. Take two-weapon style for another speed boost and some accuracy and damage boosting talents and you have a great autoattacker.

 

Outside of pure damage, Force of Anguish gives a long-lasting single target disable that you can reliably spam in tough fights, you can apply Weakened on crits as a passive ability (unlocked at level 9), you get a mobility skill that also debuffs enemy defenses (level 11), and you can summon clones that can absorb enemy attention and do elemental damage (level 13).

 

Wounds are a nice resource because they let you spam abilities throughout a fight: sure, you have to take damage first, but you don't have to worry about running out of spell slots or per encounter/rest skill slots in long fights. Monks are at their best in tougher fights, where wounds are easy to come by and other classes start running down their resources.

[gkathellar]

KDubya and MountainTiger explicate the matter excellently, so I'll give you the short version.

 

tl;dr Monks are excellent mixed DPS/tanking, with room to sway towards either end of the spectrum. Don't be afraid to use heavy armor.

[deveroth]

My problem is that my main is a rogue, I want to see Maneha's story, and I can't bring myself to get rid of Eder, so I have 4 melee fighters and am stuck having to give Zahua something with reach, so even if i wanted to I wouldn't be able to use fists. I also don't feel like spending the 1000 copper to retrain him at this point (not quite rolling in money just yet), so I guess he's stuck being absolutely terrible until I level him some more and get some better abilities (assuming they exist).

 

My next question is this: since he sucks hot bawls, can I ditch Zahua for the entirety of WM1 and still see his quest content in WM2? Or do i need to keep him around for a certain amount of time, Grieving Mother/Durance-style? He's funny and all but he's almost approaching Sagani-like levels of uselessness.

[Tigranes]

Monks are great, but I tend to use them in a very micro-intensive way, building them to take full advantage of wounds. Stuns + super high attack rate means they can literally hit people in the face too fast for the other side to respond, while the small AOE line on the basic fist thing means they are also great at bottlenecks smashing 3-4 tightly grouped enemies and felling some of them before they can even reach you.

[KDubya]

My problem is that my main is a rogue, I want to see Maneha's story, and I can't bring myself to get rid of Eder, so I have 4 melee fighters and am stuck having to give Zahua something with reach, so even if i wanted to I wouldn't be able to use fists. I also don't feel like spending the 1000 copper to retrain him at this point (not quite rolling in money just yet), so I guess he's stuck being absolutely terrible until I level him some more and get some better abilities (assuming they exist).

 

My next question is this: since he sucks hot bawls, can I ditch Zahua for the entirety of WM1 and still see his quest content in WM2? Or do i need to keep him around for a certain amount of time, Grieving Mother/Durance-style? He's funny and all but he's almost approaching Sagani-like levels of uselessness.

 

Torment's reach is Zahua's starting ability and it is a full attack so it does best with dual wielding by far. Two handed weapons are not the strong point of a Zahua build. You can make a good two handed weapon using Monk but you'd probably skip Torment's Reach and instead concentrate on Force of Anguish and Turning Wheel.

 

You can drop Zahua and use him in WM II in his quest. I'd retrain him into a Juggernaut when you get the money. A Monk will outperform a Fighter in pretty much any situation.

 

We must have different styles as I find Sagani great on PotD from when I first get her until I get her Stormcaller and she becomes a force of nature.

[Crucis]

My problem is that my main is a rogue, I want to see Maneha's story, and I can't bring myself to get rid of Eder, so I have 4 melee fighters and am stuck having to give Zahua something with reach, so even if i wanted to I wouldn't be able to use fists. I also don't feel like spending the 1000 copper to retrain him at this point (not quite rolling in money just yet), so I guess he's stuck being absolutely terrible until I level him some more and get some better abilities (assuming they exist).

 

My next question is this: since he sucks hot bawls, can I ditch Zahua for the entirety of WM1 and still see his quest content in WM2? Or do i need to keep him around for a certain amount of time, Grieving Mother/Durance-style? He's funny and all but he's almost approaching Sagani-like levels of uselessness.

 

You aren't doing yourself any favor by calling Sagani "useless".  She's beastly in the right party.  In truth, all of the Companions can shine, if you know how to get the most out of them and play them to their strengths.

 

As for your party and Zahua, I think that the problem you're having is, in part, a case of weak party composition.  If you feel that you're forced to play Zahua as a second liner using reach weapons, you're far from getting the most out of him as a monk.

 

It might help us discuss this issue more effectively if you'd post which companions you do have in your party alongside your Rogue PC.  An maybe give us an idea how you use those companions.

 

 

 

In my second play through, I used a monk PC.  And at some point in the game, I was finding it difficult to keep her from getting trashed too quickly.  So what I did was move her to the second line, and gave her a hunting bow as an alternate weapon.  A bow, you (and others) say?  Sure.  Part of it was RP reasons, with hunting bow being a peasant weapon.  But also, I had her start out many battles fighting at range for a short time, while allowing the battle to develop.  And once things got going, I'd have her switch to fists and start flanking or fly into the enemy's rear and go after the enemy spellcasters.  Going 1v1 against enemy spellcasters didn't always generate wounds, but even with no wounds, a monk can usually solo an enemy mage with considerable ease.  And for what it's worth, my monk was never in any armor heavier than light.

 

I'll also say that I completely managed my monk, as I do with all my characters.  I don't trust the AI to do what I want done, when and how I want it done.

[Boeroer]

As I said in another thread: If you feel like your monk is underwhelming (doesn't matter if Zahua or hireling) you are doing something terribly wrong. Monks - like barbarians - need a bit more knowledge about combat mechanics to get the best out of them. At the beginning of the game I strongly recommend using heavier armor and reduce that step by step.

 

Another thing is weapons: as long as you haven't a specific idea how to use a special weapon with a monk you should stay with fists. They have huge base damage (that's important for all the +x% dmg mods) and are superfast. Later in the game certain weapon setups can outperform fists - but I would say that 95% of the game you are better off with your fists. Especially if you also put on the sandals of the forgotten friar which boost you base damage by +2 (Only +2? Sounds weak? Well it is not). For a tankier apporach choose Shod-in-Faith boots.

 

If you hate micro then drop Torment's Reach and take Swift + Lightning Strikes, Turning Wheel and Iron Wheel plus Force of Anguish and Enervating Blows + Apprentice's Sneak Attack and Two Weapon Style + WF Peasant. Vulnerable Attack is good, too. Also take Duality of Mortal Presence(other defenses). Put on a Ring of Protection. Take Rooting Pain, put on a good armor and use the monk as tank. Set the AI to aggressive and forget about him - just watch him prone whole groups for a long time while also weakening them. If you have acipher, please cast Reaping Knives onto your monk whenever you can.

 

You will be better off if your Rogue uses reach wepons (Tall Grass!) and not your monk. Monks need to get hit all the time in order to unleash their special attacks. If you use him behind the front line it's no wonder he's underwhelming. He's not made for that. Well - unless you want to skill around the Long Pain, which can also be awesome: Skill him towards ranges damage (Marksman and so on), take Swift & Lightning Strikes + Turning Wheel and all the other stuff I mentioned above except the defensive ones. Absolutely put on the sandals. Maybe archer's gloves, too. At the beginning of a fight, shoot your monk in the back and let him cast the Long Pain. Watch him murder everything with superfast flying fists that hit like gunshots. Awesome - and it's a level 7 ability. Ranged monk now totally makes sense.

[Madscientist]

I have taken zahua instaed of Eder as soon as I found him.

He is my "tank" and wears heavy armor, but with his fists he does more damage than Eder could with any weapon.

Maybe I take Eder when I need max defense (like he can block a passage alone with some strong enemies behind)

With hatchet and shied and defense+ talents, he was immortal with his passive self heal and only his health (not endurence) was the limit. His damage was very low, but he is a full tank.

 

Maybe I set Zahua on aggressive. I have set all chars to defensive and nothing, so I do select all abilities, but pausing after every attack to use wounds is too much.

 

Is it normal that torments reach has no AOE indicator? In the log I can see the extra crush damage, but I am not sure if it hits other enemies.

[Boeroer]

Torment's Reach is a cone and is influenced by INT. So dumpoed INT = very short cone.

[Madscientist]

I have Zahua and did not change his stats. I do not see any AOE indicator at all. I have a look when I play again and if this stays like this I write a bug report.

[Boeroer]

Might be that there isn't an indicator. But there should be, you're right.

[deveroth]

The main reason I say Sagani is useless is, at least up through level 8, (I never used her on my first playthrough) her companion is so damn flimsy that it dies literally every single battle, accrues knockout injuries, and leaves Sagani to do nothing but use hobble twice then auto attack from range. Which as far as I'm concerned is an extremely useless character. Maybe she gets better later but she's been a heap of hot garbage for me so far.

But that's a whole other topic.

 

What about Maneha? Is a back-line barbarian feasible? I haven't paid much attention to her abilities yet but they seem to be mostly AOE.

Edited March 8, 2016 by deveroth

[deveroth]

My other two party members are Aloth and Durance, for the record. Neither of whom I want to use (cause I saw both their quests to completion my first playthrough) but neither of whom I can get rid of cause I find myself relying on their abilities often.

 

Great to know I can just dump Zahua till WM2 though. He's just absolutely incapable of adequately fulfilling the role I need him to fulfill.

Edited March 8, 2016 by deveroth

[Crucis]

The main reason I say Sagani is useless is, at least up through level 8, (I never used her on my first playthrough) her companion is so damn flimsy that it dies literally every single battle, accrues knockout injuries, and leaves Sagani to do nothing but use hobble twice then auto attack from range. Which as far as I'm concerned is an extremely useless character. Maybe she gets better later but she's been a heap of hot garbage for me so far.

But that's a whole other topic.

 

What about Maneha? Is a back-line barbarian feasible? I haven't paid much attention to her abilities yet but they seem to be mostly AOE.

 

Actually, if you invest some points on animal companion talents, you can make those pets considerably tougher and nastier.  They'll still get knocked out, but not as quickly and not as often.

 

As for a barbarian, like Maneha, what you can do is equip her with reach weapons (particularly good is the Tall Grass pike) and have her stay behind the front line guys, but still do her barbarian thing quite effectively.

[rheingold]

Ranger companions are like rogues - you have to babysit them otherwise they end up sleeping through much of the game. But if you take the requisite pet talents and are prepared to do a bit of micro managing they do absolutely insane dps. They are also useful in many other respects, crowd control, extra victim, uh body up front, they don't take health damage when they are knocked out.... Very useful overall. That's not even taking the ranger into account.

[Boeroer]

First of all: You should turn off Knockout Injuries if you play a ranger.

[falchen]

What about Maneha? Is a back-line barbarian feasible? I haven't paid much attention to her abilities yet but they seem to be mostly AOE.

 

Barbarians are a one trick pony, said trick being carnage, luckily it's actually pretty good if you build around it. Basically give her anything with good on hit spells or effects and try hit as many enemies at once as you can.

[JerekKruger]

Is it normal that torments reach has no AOE indicator? In the log I can see the extra crush damage, but I am not sure if it hits other enemies.

 

I don't get one even on a high intellect monk, so I'm guessing for some reason there isn't one for Torment's Reach. It's a tad annoying since I'd like to be able to place it well, but honestly it does such high damage to the primary target it's good even if you ignore the AoE.

[Mocker22]

My problem is that my main is a rogue, I want to see Maneha's story, and I can't bring myself to get rid of Eder, so I have 4 melee fighters and am stuck having to give Zahua something with reach, so even if i wanted to I wouldn't be able to use fists. I also don't feel like spending the 1000 copper to retrain him at this point (not quite rolling in money just yet), so I guess he's stuck being absolutely terrible until I level him some more and get some better abilities (assuming they exist).

 

My next question is this: since he sucks hot bawls, can I ditch Zahua for the entirety of WM1 and still see his quest content in WM2? Or do i need to keep him around for a certain amount of time, Grieving Mother/Durance-style? He's funny and all but he's almost approaching Sagani-like levels of uselessness.

This is now the second thread that you've ranted about how useless Zahua is.....and now throw Sagani into the mix too? Both are considered too be extremely powerful. Zahua is a very good tank that has good dps capabilities as well, and rangers are simply beasts. From the moment you get Sagani she can be dealing extreme dps which continues to get better and better.

 

Clearly this is a problem of you building and/or playing your characters horribly bad. Stop ranting about things you don't understand and try to learn.

[gkathellar]

What about Maneha? Is a back-line barbarian feasible? I haven't paid much attention to her abilities yet but they seem to be mostly AOE.

 

Not only are they feasible, barbarians are arguably (arguably) better in back with a reach weapon than on the front. Especially if they have gimped Int scores, like she does for reasons.

[Boeroer]

She has 13 INT. That's not gimped. Barbs in the second row with Tall Grass can be fun. Less babysitting that way.

[deveroth]

 

 

My problem is that my main is a rogue, I want to see Maneha's story, and I can't bring myself to get rid of Eder, so I have 4 melee fighters and am stuck having to give Zahua something with reach, so even if i wanted to I wouldn't be able to use fists. I also don't feel like spending the 1000 copper to retrain him at this point (not quite rolling in money just yet), so I guess he's stuck being absolutely terrible until I level him some more and get some better abilities (assuming they exist).

 

My next question is this: since he sucks hot bawls, can I ditch Zahua for the entirety of WM1 and still see his quest content in WM2? Or do i need to keep him around for a certain amount of time, Grieving Mother/Durance-style? He's funny and all but he's almost approaching Sagani-like levels of uselessness.

This is now the second thread that you've ranted about how useless Zahua is.....and now throw Sagani into the mix too? Both are considered too be extremely powerful. Zahua is a very good tank that has good dps capabilities as well, and rangers are simply beasts. From the moment you get Sagani she can be dealing extreme dps which continues to get better and better.

 

Clearly this is a problem of you building and/or playing your characters horribly bad. Stop ranting about things you don't understand and try to learn.

If you have nothing constructive to offer, mind your business and don't reply on my thread. Deal? Your snark and condescension are more useless than Sagani. Edited March 8, 2016 by deveroth