The great Rogue polishing thread

[Baron Pampa]

In my gameplay experience coordinated positioning is one of the most interesting and fun abilities of the rogue, which can be used to:
-escaping from troublesome places

-putting your enemy between your meleers easily

-saving your wizard

-putting your tank in the right spot

And you get it twice per encounter! What's not to love here?

[Boeroer]

 

Yeah - but that's with a slow war bow. What are the numbers with a rapier and a dagger?

Hmm, do you expect something to change?

 

Not oercentage wise, but in flat numbers. 21 to 26 frames is not a big difference. You can spare 10 points of DEX and only lose 5 frames - great deal!

[DreamWayfarer]

I think both abilites are total and utter crap (excuse my french).

Escape is useful at low levels. Not many classes get the ability to basically teleport per-encounter at level three, and it doens't even break stealth.

 

Yes, it is something one would respec out of later, so it needs a small buff, but it isn't useless. The refresh on kill idea sounds like an awesome to make it better.

Edited February 27, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[Elric Galad]

In my gameplay experience coordinated positioning is one of the most interesting and fun abilities of the rogue, which can be used to:

-escaping from troublesome places

-putting your enemy between your meleers easily

-saving your wizard

-putting your tank in the right spot

And you get it twice per encounter! What's not to love here?

 

That's indeed true. Coordinate positionning is a nice and fun ability, with a lot of potential uses.

 

However, I still think it is quite situationnal. You have 2 effects at the same time ; this is an additional constraint ; 1 effect may be nice, but the other one may not be adapted to the situation.

 

For example, if your wizard or priest is engaged, you may swap position with him.

But then, you will just replace your squishy caster by a melee attacker who is quite squishy too. Not exactly that great.

 

I am far from saying it's useless.

But the very narrow range is an additional constraint that makes possible effective uses even more limited.

I think this additional range constraint is a little bit too much, and in my opinion, it is an unecessary restriction.

 

That's why I'm suggesting a scaling range.

Base range of 5m would be another (more simple) solution by the way.

And it will increase the fun without being OP.

 

Also consider that wizard can do this too at level 7 (the same as coordinated positionning), with a far greater range and a stunning additional effect as a level 4 spell (except it doesnt' work on enemy... but wizard has a lot of other spells to use on this level that gives him at least equivalent versatility.)...

Edited February 27, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Trashos]

Has Stealth been buffed in 3.0? I think it has, as I was able to walk right up to a lone Outlaw and a lone young wolf in Valewood before my stealth broke (with Stealth 4, IIRC).

 

If it has been buffed, maybe Backstabs will be an option now. Has anybody noticed anything?

[Baron Pampa]

 

In my gameplay experience coordinated positioning is one of the most interesting and fun abilities of the rogue, which can be used to:

-escaping from troublesome places

-putting your enemy between your meleers easily

-saving your wizard

-putting your tank in the right spot

And you get it twice per encounter! What's not to love here?

 

That's indeed true. Coordinate positionning is a nice and fun ability, with a lot of potential uses.

 

However, I still think it is quite situationnal. You have 2 effects at the same time ; this is an additional constraint ; 1 effect may be nice, but the other one may not be adapted to the situation.

 

For example, if your wizard or priest is engaged, you may swap position with him.

But then, you will just replace your squishy caster by a melee attacker who is quite squishy too. Not exactly that great.

 

I am far from saying it's useless.

But the very narrow range is an additional constraint that makes possible effective uses even more limited.

I think this additional range constraint is a little bit too much, and in my opinion, it is an unecessary restriction.

 

That's why I'm suggesting a scaling range.

Base range of 5m would be another (more simple) solution by the way.

And it will increase the fun without being OP.

 

Also consider that wizard can do this too at level 7 (the same as coordinated positionning), with a far greater range and a stunning additional effect as a level 4 spell (except it doesnt' work on enemy... but wizard has a lot of other spells to use on this level that gives him at least equivalent versatility.)...

 

Wizard doesn't get it per 2/encounter. If it were deemed that an improvement is necessary, I'd rather see some debuff like daze or maybe short stun when it is used against an enemy - with too big range the ability would get pretty crazy. When saving a squishy, usually a melee rogue can outdamage anyone in 1vs1 fight, especially with his debuffing full attacks, and even moreso with some disable-on-crit weapon. But if that's not the case you can always switch position with the enemy.

[MaxQuest]

Another thing I wish rogues had is an ability that lets them evade instead of deflect/block. Something like Brute Force but the other way round: the rogue uses reflex instead of deflection as a defense.

I like that idea.

Also regarding tanking: it feels natural when the tough guys in plate do tank against waves of trash mobs. But against a dragon..

it would be quite fitting to swap that canned breakfast for an evasive rogue. Thematically keeping attention of a 10-20 tonned enemy and dodging his attacks looks like a more sane approach than trying to block his hits.

 

Not oercentage wise, but in flat numbers. 21 to 26 frames is not a big difference. You can spare 10 points of DEX and only lose 5 frames - great deal!

That's... undeniable.

Yet it reminds me of:

 

 

Sorry, couldn't contain myself

 

 

Edited February 28, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

Wizard doesn't get it per 2/encounter. If it were deemed that an improvement is necessary, I'd rather see some debuff like daze or maybe short stun when it is used against an enemy - with too big range the ability would get pretty crazy. When saving a squishy, usually a melee rogue can outdamage anyone in 1vs1 fight, especially with his debuffing full attacks, and even moreso with some disable-on-crit weapon. But if that's not the case you can always switch position with the enemy.

I still believe a little buff would be nice. After all, it has already been buffed since 1.0.

 

Anyway, it is probably not the rogue ability that requires the most Love&Care.

[Ymarsakar]

Anyone ever play Warframe? Basically the rogue in Pillars needs to have the feel of a "ninja" that is very "athletic".

[KDubya]

 

 

Yeah - but that's with a slow war bow. What are the numbers with a rapier and a dagger?

Hmm, do you expect something to change?

 

Not oercentage wise, but in flat numbers. 21 to 26 frames is not a big difference. You can spare 10 points of DEX and only lose 5 frames - great deal!

 

 

20% faster is still 20% faster. When you attack four times with your 10 dex, the 20 dex guy attacks five times. Where will you place five stat points that will be better than that? With the large number of damage adds Might is not that attractive and your Perception is probably near maxed anyway.

 

Also it is a long time till you get the gear needed to get zero recovery, until then 20 dex on a rogue is way superior to 10 dex. I personally wouldn't re-spec out of dex after getting to zero recovery, that just feels wrong but YMMV.

[Aramintai]

Rogues are awesome, but I agree with most of the original post - some of those abilities should be more powerful, otherwise nobody will take them. The only thing I'm ambivalent about is Deep wounds - sure, it will give you about 30 damage total, but it's wasted on trash mobs who die quickly enough as it is, and bosses usually have too much health to notice those tiny ticks. Personally I think Envenomed Strike is better.

 

And also, what about talents? Backstab+Shadowing Beyond combo anyone?

[Boeroer]

As I already said: Deep Wounds also works with spells that deal crush, pierce or slash damage. On a high MIG/INT rogue it will add about 20 raw damage to every AoE attack that qualifies.

[Francis Ironwood]

Backstab + Shadowing Beyond is 2 talents so you can get 2 double damage auto attacks per rest. No bueno for me.

[Aramintai]

As I already said: Deep Wounds also works with spells that deal crush, pierce or slash damage. On a high MIG/INT rogue it will add about 20 raw damage to every AoE attack that qualifies.

You mean using spell scrolls with a rogue? I usually put points into more useful skills like Mechanics and post 3.0 Survival and Athletics, so there's not enough for too much Lore.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Aramintai

[Elric Galad]

As I already said: Deep Wounds also works with spells that deal crush, pierce or slash damage. On a high MIG/INT rogue it will add about 20 raw damage to every AoE attack that qualifies.

 

Do you think Grey Sleeper rogue would be a good idea ? Or 5% Twin Stones is too low to be reliable ?

[Aramintai]

 

As I already said: Deep Wounds also works with spells that deal crush, pierce or slash damage. On a high MIG/INT rogue it will add about 20 raw damage to every AoE attack that qualifies.

 

Do you think Grey Sleeper rogue would be a good idea ? Or 5% Twin Stones is too low to be reliable ?

 

I've tried it on my last run, the chance is rather low.

[Aramintai]

Backstab + Shadowing Beyond is 2 talents so you can get 2 double damage auto attacks per rest. No bueno for me.

Then what about Backstab + Cape of the Master Mystic (Invisibity on being hit by a crit)?

Edited March 2, 2016 by Aramintai

[Boeroer]

That is a rather nice combination. You can get two backstabs per encounter for free if you're willing to eat at least 2 crits. Especially since Backstab got buffed to 150%. And it stacks with sneak and deathblows.

 

At the moment there's still that bug that lets you turn invisible until you reload. That is a total cheesefest. You can just go and murder everybody and everything while you're invisible, dealing backstabs every time you hit.

[Boeroer]

 

 

As I already said: Deep Wounds also works with spells that deal crush, pierce or slash damage. On a high MIG/INT rogue it will add about 20 raw damage to every AoE attack that qualifies.

 

Do you think Grey Sleeper rogue would be a good idea ? Or 5% Twin Stones is too low to be reliable ?

 

I've tried it on my last run, the chance is rather low.

 

Yeah, that's not the way to go. But a Bittercut with 2* Vile Thorns works and also the White Crest armor with Overwhelming Wave. And scrolls of Bounding & Concussive Missiles and Twin Stones. That is especially nice at the beginning of a fight when you let the mob come to you.

 

I'm thinking about a rogue "wizardlike" build who duplicates Bittercut for a total of 4*Vile Thorns per rest.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[Aramintai]

 

 

 

As I already said: Deep Wounds also works with spells that deal crush, pierce or slash damage. On a high MIG/INT rogue it will add about 20 raw damage to every AoE attack that qualifies.

 

Do you think Grey Sleeper rogue would be a good idea ? Or 5% Twin Stones is too low to be reliable ?

 

I've tried it on my last run, the chance is rather low.

 

Yeah, that's not the way to go. But a Bittercut with 2* Vile Thorns works and also the White Crest armor with Overwhelming Wave. And scrolls of Bounding & Concussive Missiles and Twin Stones. That is especially nice at the beginning of a fight when you let the mob come to you.

 

I'm thinking about a rogue "wizardlike" build who duplicates Bittercut for a total of 4*Vile Thorns per rest.

 

That's nice but still, if you're not helping Deep Wounds with spells which require rogue to invest in Lore or wear specific gear, on itself this ability is quite lackluster.

[Boeroer]

Not if you can hit one foe after another - like with a bow. I showed in this buils: Mad Hornet 

that Deep Wounds can be used to boost dps a lot if you're not sticking to one target. 

It's also great for rogues who are slow. For example a rogue with 3 DEX and a plate. He will hit so slowly that Deep Wounds duration may have expired when he hits again. He will still deal good damage because it's raw and also applies if the enemy is immune to his weapon attack. A slow rogue can still deal a lot of damage with a wounding weapon like Drawn in Spring and Deep Wounds. I mean obviously he will not be that murder machine like a dual sabre rogue - but he will also not go down as fast.  

 

It's just not good for a standard dual wielding rogue who wants to kill one enemy as fast as possible.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[Aramintai]

Not if you can hit one foe after another - like with a bow. I showed in this buils: Mad Hornet 

that Deep Wounds can be used to boost dps a lot if you're not sticking to one target. 

It's also great for rogues who are slow. For example a rogue with 3 DEX and a plate. He will hit so slowly that Deep Wounds duration may have expired when he hits again. He will still deal good damage because it's raw and also applies if the enemy is immune to his weapon attack. A slow rogue can still deal a lot of damage with a wounding weapon like Drawn in Spring and Deep Wounds. I mean obviously he will not be that murder machine like a dual sabre rogue - but he will also not go down as fast.  

 

It's just not good for a standard dual wielding rogue who wants to kill one enemy as fast as possible.

I see what you mean, yeah, I usually have fast dual-wielders who kill stuff so fast that Deep Wounds have no meaning. But that DoT stacking ranged build seems nice as well, although even more demanding than melee sneak attacker micromanagement wise.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Aramintai

[Boeroer]

Not if you just chain your commands at the beginning of a fight with shift+click. It takes a few seconds and you're good for half the fight. I would turn AI on so that he doesn't cease attacks after an enemy in the command chain drops prematurely. But yes - it's still a bit of microing compared to a ranger who can be a good autoattacker. 

Edited March 2, 2016 by Boeroer

[cavemandiary]

Hehe - that's the first time ever that I read that rogue's damage is too low.

 

There's no other class that can achieve a rogues damage output against a single target. How comes that you have the feeling it's too low? Deathblows + Sneak Attack = +150% base weapon damage. Sounds rather high to me.

 

Rogues damage is high, I agree, but imho not high enough compared to how squishy it is. So I guess that my argument ultimately is not about the DPS being low, but the reward not justifying the risk. I honestly find that my monk is almost on par with my rogue (atleast 80-90% of my rogues singletarget dps) but is tankier to the factor of ten, and Flaggalants Path is better than any mobility tool the rogue has. I would even argue that when Dichotomous Soul is active -  and especially with Ciphers Reaping Knives - he actually does more damage despite my rogue using a fully upgraded Unlabored Blade (despite using an NPC rogue that was tailored to DPS, and always put painblock on her at the beginning of every fight)

 

Heck, even my barb outperforms my rogue as long as he is hitting just 2 enemies at a time. So either i'm an excellent monk/barb player, or a terrible rogue player. Shrugs. Dead rogues can't do damag

Edited March 2, 2016 by cavemandiary

[ottffsse]

That's not surprising. In the end rogue has no aoe damage and classes with aoe damage (monk, barbarian, cipher etc) will still out damage a rogue over the course of the game. Rogue is really a specialized mage killer, slap boots of haste on him and send him into the mage back ranks of the enemy to decimate them. Thats what he is good at.