Does Cipher with a gun need high dexterity?

[pagulhan]

I started a new potd game with following stats:

Might 18

Con 3

Dex 18

Per 18

Int 18

Res 3

 

I'd like to be a good ranged dps and have as much speech options unlocked as I can. I can't have them with low res though. As I know, high dex used to be useless for gun users. Is it stil true in 3.0? Can you be a nice dps with, let's say, a blunderbuss with low dex? If so, I could put points from dex into res.

Edited February 24, 2016 by pagulhan

[nemesis205bw]

Blunderbuss is not that good anymore on cipher. Its better to use weapon that would gain the most benefit from time parasite.

[DreamWayfarer]

Guns are fully viable, and if you plan to rely on quick switching you don't need high dextery, although I wouldn't put it lower than 10. And you won't be as much about DPS as about burst.

 

And I also wouldn't put CON lower than 6, but that is mostly because I dislike when my chars explode in one hit.

 

If you wish even more RES you could lower MIG a little.

[Boeroer]

Guns are fully viable, and if you plan to rely on quick switching you don't need high dextery, although I wouldn't put it lower than 10. And you won't be as much about DPS as about burst.

 

And I also wouldn't put CON lower than 6, but that is mostly because I dislike when my chars explode in one hit.

 

If you wish even more RES you could lower MIG a little.

Can't say it better. I will just sum up: (Island Aumaua) Cipher + Blunderbuss + Quick Switch + Arms Bearer = superawesome. And try to use Ryona's Vambraces! Sorry that was not summing up but adding something - ah well...

[pagulhan]

What's about quick switching? I already read it several times. Do you mean you're not going to reload and simply switch to the next prepared gun? It sounds like a starcraft2-micro scale every battle. I also enjoy playing as glass cannon as it makes you work more about not letting bad guys get into your dps line what makes combat even more interesting. I'm not exactly talking about bottle neck with 2 tanks, more about precise choice of who to kill next or take control of.

 

So is there any class other than Cipher that can be awesome with high INT, PER and RES? Maybe except chanters. After my TSC run, I need a break. What weapon is considered the best for ranged dps? I'm not really that interesed in abusing quick switch. I find it breaking immersion. Also I'd feel like I use a cheat.

Edited February 24, 2016 by pagulhan

[DreamWayfarer]

What's about quick switching? I already read it several times. Do you mean you're not going to reload and simply switch to the next prepared gun?

Yeah. Very hurty.

 

I'm not really that interesed in abusing quick switch. I find it breaking immersion. Also I'd feel like I use a cheat.

Why? People used to do it often in real life. That is where the term "gunslinger" comes from: one would carry many pistols on a sling to shoot multiple times during a fight.

[ottffsse]

What's about quick switching? I already read it several times. Do you mean you're not going to reload and simply switch to the next prepared gun? It sounds like a starcraft2-micro scale every battle. I also enjoy playing as glass cannon as it makes you work more about not letting bad guys get into your dps line what makes combat even more interesting. I'm not exactly talking about bottle neck with 2 tanks, more about precise choice of who to kill next or take control of.

 

So is there any class other than Cipher that can be awesome with high INT, PER and RES? Maybe except chanters. After my TSC run, I need a break. What weapon is considered the best for ranged dps? I'm not really that interesed in abusing quick switch. I find it breaking immersion. Also I'd feel like I use a cheat.

You can hot key quick switch. And it's super easy in 3 seconds of the start of fight you unloaded your guns and have basically full focus to cast stuff like amplified thrust and detonate... Which give you more focus. And no you're not cheating because you are are investing talent points to use a certain ability combo. Dex is needed if you wear say padded armor or robes instead of cloth, to get you back to 0 recovery penalty. But yeah don't drop below 5/5 con res unless you like to be one shoted frequently. And even then try to boost con res to at least 7/7 through items and talents. Before time parasite a mix of gun and good bows(stormcaller or cloudpiercer) is very good. Of course certain pistols like fellstroke or good old lead spitter are also very good of you have a chanter who buffs you with the sure handed phrase.

[Izichial]

So is there any class other than Cipher that can be awesome with high INT, PER and RES? Maybe except chanters. After my TSC run, I need a break. What weapon is considered the best for ranged dps? I'm not really that interesed in abusing quick switch. I find it breaking immersion. Also I'd feel like I use a cheat.

 

Pretty much any caster can be built for high Int / Per / Res with fairly small sacrifices, no? Something like 12 / 6 / 10 / 16 / 18 / 16 -> get Serel's Ring early and rest with perception bonus and you'll be able to make, afaik, every single Per / Int / Res stat check from very early on. If you're willing to micromanage resting bonuses a bit, you can shuffle a couple of points from Res into Might for moar damage.

 

Edit: Forgot that you can get Lilith's Shawl early. Can go 14 / 6 / 10 / 16 / 18 / 14 -> use Lilith's Shawl (gives you 19 Per) and Serel's Ring (16 Res) and then rest with Res bonus instead. Obviously you can shuffle around those numbers according to personal preference.

 

Don't know what's considered best for range weapons but on my last Cipher playthrough I did just fine with War Bows until I got Stormcaller / Twin Sting. Ended up preferring the latter, though obviously that's pretty late.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Izichial

[Koth]

What's about quick switching? I already read it several times. Do you mean you're not going to reload and simply switch to the next prepared gun? It sounds like a starcraft2-micro scale every battle. I also enjoy playing as glass cannon as it makes you work more about not letting bad guys get into your dps line what makes combat even more interesting. I'm not exactly talking about bottle neck with 2 tanks, more about precise choice of who to kill next or take control of.

 

So is there any class other than Cipher that can be awesome with high INT, PER and RES? Maybe except chanters. After my TSC run, I need a break. What weapon is considered the best for ranged dps? I'm not really that interesed in abusing quick switch. I find it breaking immersion. Also I'd feel like I use a cheat.

I've kind of got to agree here. Although I can see the point of view that this isn't a cheat and a valid tactic. It probably is a valid tactic, but it does to me "feel" like I'm exploiting some mechanics for which the dev's did not intend the cipher to function. Personally I play on PotD and don't quickswitch and the opening shot from a blunderbuss is still enough to start spamming Amplified thrust to build even more focus, and it works out fine. Horses for courses I guess.

 

And to answer the OP's original question, even if you play as I do without quick switching you still don't need dex any higher than 10-12. All of the cipher spells worth casting are fast cast anyway, and you only need one quick shot at the start of combat to get the ball rolling. Hope this helps, Koth.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Koth

[Boeroer]

So... using a bugged power is OK, but quick switching blunderbusses is cheese.

 

Using Quick Switch is not cheating. You buy a talent and then you can shoot two to four times whenever you want. After that you have to reload like everyone else.

This tastic also works fine without the talent - it's still faster than reloading the guns.

If you want to only use one gun and reload, then I strongly advice to get high DEX and the Gunner talent.

But then you'd be better off with a bow instead.

[Elric Galad]

Dude, skipping reload when using quickswitch is totally legit.

 

But you know from the depth of your soul that skipping recovery is evil.

[Boeroer]

Whom do you mean?

[Elric Galad]

Weapon switch skip recovery time of the previous attack. This is not so noticeable without quickswitch, but with it, you'll see the difference. I don't think it is realistic.

 

But yeah, this requires talents to build, so it is not too much an exploit.

[Boeroer]

You really have to keep an eye on the shooter though and immediately switch after the shot animation to skip recovery. It's pretty insane and that you can rightfully call cheese. But quick switching in general not I think.

[Wolken3156]

Blunderbuss is not that good anymore on cipher. Its better to use weapon that would gain the most benefit from time parasite.

Before you get Time Parasite, guns still have a strong incentive over other ranged weapons. Even when you get Time Parasite, using the first shot of a gun to generate a huge amount of Focus and then switching over to your bow is the best way to open a fight; since the huge amount of Focus a gun generates can be used to get Time Parasite and Reaving Knives up as quickly as possible.

[MaxQuest]

As I know, high dex used to be useless for gun users.

Ugh, the dex was never useless. Going from 10 dex to 20, increases by 30% the speed of your shooting, casting, pretty much everything except instant casts. And (with the sake of example all other stats being the same) this translates into 30% dps increase.

 

The cons of dex are:

- it's benefits are subject to slight diminishing returns. Let's say you want to perform an action of 104 frames duration. By going from 10 dex to 20, that action time will be reduced to 80 frames (104/1.3). That's a x1.3 increase for 10 dex. But if you will increase dex by 10 furthermore, action time will become 65 (104/1.6). That's x1.23 relative increase for the new 10 dex. (80/65). (Btw might suffers from diminishing returns too)

- this game has enemies with DR. Might helps overcome it. Dex doesn't.

- doesn't play nicely with limited spells and abilities. Although this doesn't affect cipher.

- can be of less use if you use quick-switching and the battle goes for longer time; because initial burst get's less of relative value. Faster.

 

The pros of dex:

- on hits and especially on crits against low DR enemies, provides way higher damage increase, than might would. Mainly because might's quota in damage increase is diluted by other damage increasing coeficients. While dex's isn't.

 

So to resume:

- mig and per, take precedence over dex, if you use very low-dmg hitting weapons, like hunter bows, blunderbusses, etc. (esp. blunderbuss with quick switch)

- dex takes precedence over (or is at least on par with) mig, if you use arquebuses and pistols.

Edited February 25, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Dex also makes you reloading faster. So I wouldn't say it's useless on a gunner who reloads often. It's the only way to speed up reloading besides the chant, Gunner and Swift Aim.