Quality of the new class skills

[cavemandiary]

Well, as I've been toying around a bit with the new skills for some of the classes, I thought I wanted to give my assessment on them. Granted, I haven't played all classes extensively yet, but some of them I already have a pretty firm grasp on...

 

Barbarian:

 

Honestly, all of them are fairly weak. The shout is alright, but hits your party as well, so it's situational. I would take crashing wave from a druid over this any day. The ritaliation is decent as well, albeit a bit boring. It seems to stack with regular retaliation. But since it doesn't seem to be aoe, I would take monks rooting pain over this one. The final passive, the one that resets your attack cooldown on kill, seems very situational. I could see it being useful in scenarios where you are able to chain multiple of these successively against trash mobs, but against anything that resembles a challenge this talent just sits there doing nothing.

 

4/10

 

Cipher:

 

I don't know where to start. By far the best talents given to any of the classes that I've played. Defensive mindweb has zero casting time, lasts a minute or so with high int, and can easily double the deflection of your weaker party. My cipher went from 60 to 130 deflection, and was instrumental in my ability to kill a certain 'a certain enemy even more difficult than the Alpine Dragon' on POTD. Reaping Knives is just as crazy. It pays for itself many times over. Put it on a monk, and you have infinite focus. Even though they are daggers (for weapon focus reasons), transcendent suffering somehow works with them, effectively doubling their effectiveness compared to other classes. Oh, and the focus gain works with both procs of Torments Reach. Oh and it seems to convert the lightning damage from lightning strikes into raw damage as well (not fully tested, but my dmg read 34-44 raw, yet I was hitting numbers in the 50 range against xaurips). Plus it turns Zahua into a deathmachine.

 

10/10

 

Chanter:

I never use chanters, so don't quote me on this one.

 

Druid:

Same as above. Just by looking at the description though, they look very promising. Especially that firestag. Has anyone tested it? There is also a new lower level spell called Form of the Delemgar that adds damage reduction across most of the board and disease defense, at a medium aoe. Useful stuff, by the looks of it.

 

Fighter:

Haven't played around with him much. Feedback? By the looks of it, all skills seems useful. Triggered immunity might just be the biggest gamechanger though.

 

Monk:

All of the monks skills are interesting. Skyward kick is stunning blows on steroids, resonant touch can adds even more dps to his arsenal and the long pain deals more damage at a range than his regular fists. The downside of the ladder is that a) does not work with any melee bonuses you have. b) torments reach and force of anguish are disabled because they require melee (maybe you can weapon switch? haven't tried) and c) if you have a cipher, reaping knives are better.

 

7/10

 

Paladin:

These are all pretty weak. I ultimately ended up taking behold the martyr, since I am running both Maneha and Zahua, who both do not qualify as dedicated tanks. The paladin, given his tanky nature, is probably the last to go down in a party (atleast in my case, my wiz has been knocked out 45 times, my paladin 0). Still, considering the fact that healing chain is amazing and that sacred immolation was arguably the best talent/skill of TWM part 1, I can sort of forgive that. When behold the martyr DOES go down, it's an immediate gamechanger. Abjuration has it's uses, but is situational as not that many enemies cast summons. Aegis of loyalty is utter garbage, the last thing a paladin has to worry about is a bit of friendly fire.

 

4/10

 

Priest:

Has two new lower level spells that protects a single ally against either weak or strong afflictions. I'm asuming that they also cancels any existing afflictions, in which case they are very useful.

As for his 8th level spells, hand of weal and woe has won me tough battles. It takes careful positioning to make full use of, but works great with characters that have great mobility like rogues coordinated positioning, monks flaggelants path and barbs dragon leap. It also stacks with other beams, such as ciphers ectopsychic echo. Symbol of Magran does seem to leave something to be desired. Alright, the blind is useful, and the duration is long, but the damage, frequency and aoe seem rather weak. In all fairness, the 7th level spell Storm of Holy fire seems superior in every way other than it inflicts friendly fire unlike Symbol of Magran, but the formers AOE is so large that you can easily avoid that downside entirely with high int and a +10% aoe ring.

 

Finally there is Watchful Guardian, which revives an ally with around 100 endurance when knocked out. It's an excellent spell, especially against dragons and the like that have a high probability of wiping out your whole party with their breath. Still, not the spell you will be casting frequently.

 

8/10

 

Ranger:

Not much experience with Rangers, but powderburns seem very very interesting. Probably the most interesting (as in, core-mechanic changing) ability in TWM2. It does have some significant drawbacks, and apparently does friendly fire. Who has tried it out?

 

Rogue:

Not a big rogue fan either, but none of the new talents seem gamechanging. Shadow Step seems weird albeit useful, although giving the player control over WHEN to trigger the return would have made it much better. Persistent distraction seems alright as well.

 

Wizard:

The wizard has a lot of new spells. Although i play Wizard a lot, I have not been able to try out all of his skills. The ones that I have tried out are Freezing Rake (which seem to do much more damage/hit multiple times on the same target) and Wilting Winds, both excellent spells.

 

7/10

 

All in all, atleast of the classes that I'm currently playing, Barbs and Paladins didn't receive much, whereas Cipher went from 'great' to 'godtier'.

 

What is your experience with the new spells/talents?

Edited February 18, 2016 by cavemandiary

[Elric Galad]

Barbarian retaliation does raw damages. As retaliation damages tends to be low, I think it is noticeable. More reliable than rooting pain IMHO.

 

How skyward reach could be stunning blow on steroids ??? It's not full attack, and only cause Prone while Stun is better. It is stricty bader than Stunning Blows... or did I miss something ?

 

Do you realize Aegis of Loyalty is the only way of dissipating mind control spells ? (Except charming back) Did you read the complete description ?

Edited February 18, 2016 by Elric Galad

[MaxQuest]

Aegis of loyalty is utter garbage, the last thing a paladin has to worry about is a bit of friendly fire.

"if the paladin hits a teammate under one of those effects, the attack does minimal damage and cancels the affliction." part was never useful at all?

 

---

Regarding chanter:

- Brisk Recitation is amazing. Basically makes linger longer than initial phrase duration! Ah and it allows to get to invocations up to twice as fast. 10/10

- "Mercy and Kindness Followed Where'er She Walked" can have it's uses. But not that many. Since if you need to restore so much endurance, you will probably have health problems soon enough. 6/10

- "With All Your Strength Slay the Beast": +20 acc, + 30% dmg against beasts. That's just boss. 10/10

As for invocations not sure, haven't tried them yet. (Prior to brisk) Used to think of them as pleasant but unexpected surprises.

Edited February 18, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Elric Galad]

Mercy and kindness basically double the effects of the endurance stealing chant. And of draining mode, etc...

 

Now with brisk, you can have both active at the same time. I think it can be a life saver against some hard and long battle like the Alpine. Especially now that chanter has a low level healing chant.

[bescheid]

why would it dubble that lvl 1 chant?

 

Mercy and kindness basically double the effects of the endurance stealing chant. And of draining mode, etc...

Now with brisk, you can have both active at the same time. I think it can be a life saver against some hard and long battle like the Alpine. Especially now that chanter has a low level healing chant.

[Elric Galad]

"Old siec would not rest 'till his hunger.." is a lvl 4 chant.

 

The lvl 1 chant damage endurance but does not steal anything

[Wolken3156]

Even though they are daggers (for weapon focus reasons), transcendent suffering somehow works with them, effectively doubling their effectiveness compared to other classes. Oh, and the focus gain works with both procs of Torments Reach. Oh and it seems to convert the lightning damage from lightning strikes into raw damage as well (not fully tested, but my dmg read 34-44 raw, yet I was hitting numbers in the 50 range against xaurips). Plus it turns Zahua into a deathmachine.

Summoned weapons are considered universal, which means that it'll work with any Weapon Focus and any weapon specific abilities and talents.

 

But yes, Reaping Knives is incredible. Too bad the only character in my current party who benefits from it is my Skaen Priest... of all characters =/

[falchen]

Is there a list of all of these somewhere? The wiki is horribly outdated.

[Wolken3156]

Is there a list of all of these somewhere? The wiki is horribly outdated.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/84249-data-miners-unite/

 

All of the new abilities and talents on this thread.

[Abalon]

The new rogue distraction talent is extremely good as anytime your flanking it now enables deathlows

[Elric Galad]

 

Even though they are daggers (for weapon focus reasons), transcendent suffering somehow works with them, effectively doubling their effectiveness compared to other classes. Oh, and the focus gain works with both procs of Torments Reach. Oh and it seems to convert the lightning damage from lightning strikes into raw damage as well (not fully tested, but my dmg read 34-44 raw, yet I was hitting numbers in the 50 range against xaurips). Plus it turns Zahua into a deathmachine.

Summoned weapons are considered universal, which means that it'll work with any Weapon Focus and any weapon specific abilities and talents.

 

But yes, Reaping Knives is incredible. Too bad the only character in my current party who benefits from it is my Skaen Priest... of all characters =/

Does that mean novice suffering work with summoned weapon as well ?

[Elric Galad]

Double post

Edited February 18, 2016 by Elric Galad

[Wolken3156]

 

 

Even though they are daggers (for weapon focus reasons), transcendent suffering somehow works with them, effectively doubling their effectiveness compared to other classes. Oh, and the focus gain works with both procs of Torments Reach. Oh and it seems to convert the lightning damage from lightning strikes into raw damage as well (not fully tested, but my dmg read 34-44 raw, yet I was hitting numbers in the 50 range against xaurips). Plus it turns Zahua into a deathmachine.

Summoned weapons are considered universal, which means that it'll work with any Weapon Focus and any weapon specific abilities and talents.

 

But yes, Reaping Knives is incredible. Too bad the only character in my current party who benefits from it is my Skaen Priest... of all characters =/

Does that mean novice suffering work with summoned weapon as well ?

 

It might! I mean they do work with Flick of the Wrist and Prey on the Weak, so it probably does!

 

We should test this.

[Elric Galad]

It didn't work on spiritshift claws by the way.

 

But... shift claws are peasant weapons so...

[limaxophobiacq]

 

Druid:

Same as above. Just by looking at the description though, they look very promising. Especially that firestag. Has anyone tested it? There is also a new lower level spell called Form of the Delemgar that adds damage reduction across most of the board and disease defense, at a medium aoe. Useful stuff, by the looks of it.

 

 

Have tried all of them fighting Concelhaut and Thaos. Form of Delemgan is a good enough buff for its level, but the 8th level ones all blow in any kind of serious fight. The stag has pitiful defenses (defensive values in the  60s, I pointed my archer ranger at it to see its defenses and it insta-died), takes way to long to summon (slow cast time), and doesn't hit very hard. The storm one is like Relentless Storm except they have to hit your druid instead of it hitting everyone all the time so plain worse, and Tornado has a bad AoE and moves slowly meaning you have to spend time you could spend casting more effective spells positioning your druid to set it up.

 

I'd give all 7th and 8th level druid spells per day for more casts of Relentless Storm, Earth Talon, and Plague of Insects. Why put all the best druid spells less Venombloom on one spell level? I played through the entire 3.0 beta with a druid and didn't cast one 7th level spell, and I'd most likely play through WMII without casting any 8th level spells either.

Edited February 18, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[Elric Galad]

True.

Druid have excellent spells at level 1, 3, 4, 5, decent level 2 and 6.

 

But 7 and 8 are not very appealing.

 

At least in NWN, you had metamagic to correct this...

[cavemandiary]

Barbarian retaliation does raw damages. As retaliation damages tends to be low, I think it is noticeable. More reliable than rooting pain IMHO.

 

How skyward reach could be stunning blow on steroids ??? It's not full attack, and only cause Prone while Stun is better. It is stricty bader than Stunning Blows... or did I miss something ?

 

Do you realize Aegis of Loyalty is the only way of dissipating mind control spells ? (Except charming back) Did you read the complete description ?

 

Well first of all, the above is just my own personal preliminary opinion, so I'm definitely open to different opinions.

 

I agree that Barbaric Retaliation does decent damage, but it seems to be single target and there is no interrupt unlike rooting pain, which is why I prefer it.

 

As for skyward, from what I can tell, the duration is longer than listed because the enemy also spends some time mid-air. If the airtime is part of those 3s prone (that wasn't my conclusion from a few tests, but didn't exactly have a stopwatch) then you are right.

 

Lastly, yes I read that part, but still, seems situational. The charmed/dominated teammate still has to hit the paladin, and not any of the other 4 party members, to make it work right?

[Wolken3156]

Lastly, yes I read that part, but still, seems situational. The charmed/dominated teammate still has to hit the paladin, and not any of the other 4 party members, to make it work right?

No, your Paladin just needs to smack them with his weapon and it'll instantly remove the condition.

[cavemandiary]

 

Even though they are daggers (for weapon focus reasons), transcendent suffering somehow works with them, effectively doubling their effectiveness compared to other classes. Oh, and the focus gain works with both procs of Torments Reach. Oh and it seems to convert the lightning damage from lightning strikes into raw damage as well (not fully tested, but my dmg read 34-44 raw, yet I was hitting numbers in the 50 range against xaurips). Plus it turns Zahua into a deathmachine.

Summoned weapons are considered universal, which means that it'll work with any Weapon Focus and any weapon specific abilities and talents.

 

But yes, Reaping Knives is incredible. Too bad the only character in my current party who benefits from it is my Skaen Priest... of all characters =/

 

I could have sworn that my Zahua lost 6 accuracy, but oh well.

[Luckmann]

Having been out of the loop since before White March pt. 1, was the Fighter's ranged capabilities ever improved, or are Fighters still all melee all day err' day? Mechanically, I always felt they were the most shallow class in what they could do, whereas most others were "opened up" during development, prior to release.

[DreamWayfarer]

Having been out of the loop since before White March pt. 1, was the Fighter's ranged capabilities ever improved, or are Fighters still all melee all day err' day? Mechanically, I always felt they were the most shallow class in what they could do, whereas most others were "opened up" during development, prior to release.

Well... They buffed Disciplined Barrage?

 

Honestly, a full ranged fighter may actualy work well, but Fighters have little incentive to not be melee chars.

[AndreaColombo]

Having been out of the loop since before White March pt. 1, was the Fighter's ranged capabilities ever improved, or are Fighters still all melee all day err' day?

 

Pretty much melee. Ranged DPS is still a Ranger's purview.

 

But Fighters are awesome

[Francis Ironwood]

Fighters limited in what they can do? How about barbarian? Their main purpose seems to be spreading afflictions with carnage.

[Elric Galad]

 

 

Lastly, yes I read that part, but still, seems situational. The charmed/dominated teammate still has to hit the paladin, and not any of the other 4 party members, to make it work right?

No, your Paladin just needs to smack them with his weapon and it'll instantly remove the condition.

You even have a reason to use dual fist without suffering as weapons.

 

When all you party except pal got dominated :

"Now, it's slap time !"

[Luckmann]

 

Having been out of the loop since before White March pt. 1, was the Fighter's ranged capabilities ever improved, or are Fighters still all melee all day err' day?

 

Pretty much melee. Ranged DPS is still a Ranger's purview.

 

But Fighters are awesome

 

 

What I don't like about that is that while Rangers are good for ranged DPS, they are also extremely capable in melee, and you can easily make a very good melee ranger build. Rangers, at the end of the day, play like.. rangers. Obviously. Melee or ranged, a ranger always plays like a ranger, and it'll always be vaguely nature-based and have a pet.

 

A Fighter, though, will practically always be melee and engagement-based. The reason I've supported more ranged support for Fighters in the past was because I wanted to be able to build a combat/soldier-esque archer archetype.