Obsidian should rework the classes for POE2

[Elerond]

 

 

It really shouldn't be able unless a specific school would trains you for it.

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that all wizards come from a school?

Which part of Pillars of Eternity lore states that wizards can't undergo training outside of that provided to them by a school?

 

None, doesn't that bother you? Even for paladins, priests, monk & whatever? After all this game is kinda heavy with it's lore.

 

 

No really, because point is that its your characters background that you define by yourself. More restrictions game's lore put on how you can define your character more constricted your roleplaying choices are. And I personally like more of those roleplaying games that offer more freedom in way you play your character. Which is why I like more RPGs that don't have fixed characters than those that have.

[why]

I think you have a good point about lore, yoomazir, but now the discussion has boiled down to actual restrictions al Dungeons and Dragons and it's difficult to extricate the lore idea from the hard and fast restriction idea. I agree that the player, the other characters, and the game world as a whole should generally expect a monk in a particular order to eschew prohibited weapons, armor, and other activities. I also understand that the game world, in the same way as the real world, should expect some monks to cheat on their oaths and convictions from time to time. Some of them more and some of them less and few of them never. Find a way to let the story reflect those transgressions if possible, but there will be some point where it's not worth the effort to reflect these choices or the effort is actually detrimental to the overall vision and design.

 

I was going to bring up the many many problems with simulationist thinking in terms of training requirements, such as the fact that an orlan can drop plate armor that a human can immediately don like a pair of shrink to fit jeans, but that's a big can of worms. The fact is, there is no logical argument for restrictions that doesn't fly out the window in the face of the game mechanics of just about any CRPG on the market.

 

Other than personal preference, there's no completely solid argument to be made for equipment restrictions based on class. You'd be better off making arguments for strength requirements, and the attribute system throws that idea out the window, which is actually okay by me since I enjoy the way the game plays.

[Zenbane]

I also understand that the game world, in the same way as the real world, should expect some monks to cheat on their oaths and convictions from time to time.

Catholic Priests come to mind lol

 

 

Other than personal preference, there's no completely solid argument to be made for equipment restrictions based on class.

I'll mention Wizardry 8 again, that has some armor and jewelry that is specific to Female-only. And the Fairy Race, who really can't wear much at all (similar to the Godlike's in PoE who can't wear helmets). It isn't overly difficult to implement, but I do appreciate it in small doses. Games like PoE (with Godlike) and Wizardry (females) do this quite well, imo.

 

 

You'd be better off making arguments for strength requirements, and the attribute system throws that idea out the window, which is actually okay by me since I enjoy the way the game plays.

This I do agree with, and typically in an RPG either a character can't wear the gear until the attribute requirements are met, of at the very least, they become "encumbered" since they are carrying more weight than their strength capacity allows. This often results in a character moving slower, or not moving at all (eg, Grimrock), or taking an Armor Class penalty (Wizardry).

[why]

The irony is that explaining class restrictions usually comes across as needless and/or non-sensical, but other restrictions, such as those based on sex, race, or region, can seem perfectly reasonable and explained with more felicity by use of lore. Why is it only elves can use the fabled fairy ring of yore? Because the Elf King made a pact with the fairy goddess, that's why! lol

 

Grimrock is an excellent franchise. I hope they come out with a third installment. Can't do the same thing with stats and weight in Pillars, though. Not only are the attributes a little off-kilter (and on purpose), but so is inventory. Of all of this, the inventory took some time for me to get used to it.

[Sedrefilos]

Some people just cannot unglue DnD from their minds I suppose.

[Zenbane]

lol well in the case of this discussion, someone clearly cannot unglue themselves from the Inventory screen. goodness

[Zenbane]

The irony is that explaining class restrictions usually comes across as needless and/or non-sensical, but other restrictions, such as those based on sex, race, or region, can seem perfectly reasonable and explained with more felicity by use of lore. Why is it only elves can use the fabled fairy ring of yore? Because the Elf King made a pact with the fairy goddess, that's why! lol

 

Grimrock is an excellent franchise. I hope they come out with a third installment. Can't do the same thing with stats and weight in Pillars, though. Not only are the attributes a little off-kilter (and on purpose), but so is inventory. Of all of this, the inventory took some time for me to get used to it.

 

Well I think the acceptance of restrictions based on gender has more to do with being Politically Correct (girl power!) and races like Fairies likely fall in the same category since they are the trans-gender's of the fantasy RPG realm lol

 

I'm a huge fan of Grimrock, and if you're bored over the holidays check out the Mod I created for it, Mystrock.com

 

I re-created the entire world of Myst (realMyst by Cyan, inc) in to a dungeon crawler RPG, cause why the hell not

 

If there is ever a Mod Kit for PoE I would love a chance to do something in this framework.

[why]

I notice that they have a modding forum. I don't know how mod friendly Pillars is, but you could take a gander:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/forum/110-pillars-of-eternity-modding-spoiler-warning/

 

I suppose, if modding were easy enough, you could create a mod that would restrict weapons and armor for your characters. I would think there are so many other things that would make for interesting mods, but that's just me. After all, it's a single player game. If you don't like monks using armor and weapons, don't put armor and weapons on them. That's a player defined role, which is the best role playing around!

[PrimeJunta]

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

Wut? Have you even played the game?

[tinysalamander]

Personally, I think classes are just tools. Characters need identity, tools need to do things they are told to do. If I say that my “wizard” is not a mage but a demon hunting warrior, he is.

[Zenbane]

 

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

Wut? Have you even played the game?

 

 

The OP seems to be taking the lowest common denominator, and then drawing a high-level assessment. That can be fun I suppose, lemme try...

 

Pillars of Eternity has a loading screen; in that aspect the game resembles Super Mario Bros.

 

Ya that was exciting! *squeals of joy*

[yoomazir]

 

 

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

Wut? Have you even played the game?

 

 

The OP seems to be taking the lowest common denominator, and then drawing a high-level assessment. That can be fun I suppose, lemme try...

 

Pillars of Eternity has a loading screen; in that aspect the game resembles Super Mario Bros.

 

Ya that was exciting! *squeals of joy*

 

You forgot to add AD&D in your post, strange since it must have deeply traumatized you for you to reference it a bunch of times in this topic.

 

But hey, just keep posting "TC only bringz weaponz & AD&D huuuur duuuurr" it'll help you feel better.

 

At least some people understood what I was trying to bring to attention, the rest can keep saying whatever they want, God forbid saying anything wrong to their beloved game.

[PrimeJunta]

At least some people understood what I was trying to bring to attention, the rest can keep saying whatever they want, God forbid saying anything wrong to their beloved game.

 

Not the problem. There's plenty of room for improvement in Pillars. The problem is that you're just saying things that are plain wrong -- like the comment that I "wut?"'ed. If you want to have an intelligent discussion, it helps if your criticisms don't come across as just... completely random.

 

For starters, we could discuss the rogue, and how to make it stand out more. I've built a number of rogues and none of them have worked as well for me as a hurty-build fighter or monk; the only thing it brings to the table, really, is one extra pip in Mechanics which is hardly enough to justify its existence, and while you can get really serious point damage with it, it's also really, really, really fragile. And if you skew your build to mitigate the fragility, then the damage isn't all that special anymore.

 

(Hint: restricting it to the Ruffian weapon group isn't it.)

[brindle88]

 

 

In that aspect the games resembles to Dark Souls, basically the "classes" are just what gear & stuff you start with, later on you can be whatever you want to be, if PoE wants to be that fine, but it would be better for it to remove all classes and just give the player to chose the gear & abilities he wants to start with, why bother creating classes if they mean nothing.

 

Wut? Have you even played the game?

 

The OP seems to be taking the lowest common denominator, and then drawing a high-level assessment. That can be fun I suppose, lemme try...

 

Pillars of Eternity has a loading screen; in that aspect the game resembles Super Mario Bros.

 

Ya that was exciting! *squeals of joy*

Was that meant to be a joke?

[Osvir]

 

I've heard that in D&D Classes gain certain "status" depending on Level (Adventurer levels, Hero levels, Legendary levels, God levels etc.)

What are PoE's equivalent?

Hopefully there will remain no equivalent since typically in D&D games the characters gain experience, thus levels, simply from killing mob's; whereas in PoE experience is gained from achieving a milestone (eg, complete a quest, add new beastiary entry). The reason traditional RPG games need to give a level-based reward, like a "status," is so that players can feel a sense of accomplishment after killing 10,000 rats. I see this as a false sense of accomplishment that is geared towards distracting players from the fact that they are engaging in an experience-wheel grind.

 

By PoE2 you should be around lvl 12-13. What does that mean? Are you a Hero? A Lord? A Champion? What significance does that have?

Again, simply gaining a level is not a real accomplishment. Instead, significance comes from standing and reputation, or faction ratings, which is earned or lost through player engagement in the gaming world.

 

What sort of capabilities does a Fighter have as a Level 14+ Class? Can they do a "Knockdown Smash" and knockdown everyone in a radius aroubd them?

Personally, I prefer the way Wizardry 8 does this, where it also does not matter what level the character has reached, but instead rewards the player for how the character is built. For instance, if your fighter reaches 100 Strength then a new powerful skill is unlocked. And the figher might reach 100 Strength around level 13, or maybe around level 17+ depending on how you built the class.

 

The common theme in your suggestions appears to be a false sense of reward from engaging in the dreaded exp grind. But I think you were just brainstorming in order to give a general counter-reply to the OP, in which case apologies if I honed in on the wrong point. Games like PoE and Wizardry do a much better job of giving proper reward for better player actions. At least in my opinion.

Sounds good and all, just one problem with your counter-points:

 

Pillars has a level system, and gated rewards (can't cast a level 5 spell at level 1 can you?).

 

I'm pretty certain PoE 2 will continue that theme.

 

But yeah, counter-points towards OP and brainstorm (kinda my thing )

[DreamWayfarer]

 

The OP seems to be taking the lowest common denominator, and then drawing a high-level assessment. That can be fun I suppose, lemme try...

 

Pillars of Eternity has a loading screen; in that aspect the game resembles Super Mario Bros.

 

Ya that was exciting! *squeals of joy*

Was that meant to be a joke?

 

Yes... Zenbane was using sarchasm to convey how ridiculous it would be to equal Dark Souls, a praticaly classless game, with PoEt, a game where classes are very differenciated by their base attributes and their complex skillset, instead of a meaningless equipament restriction.

 

 

The only thing acomplished by forcibly restricting equipament from the beggining, instead of forcing especialization later in order to be effective, is limiting the players options, in both gameplay and roleplaying.

 

Why can't my barbarian be a pious prince with knightly training that channels his fanatical fervour into a cold rage as he cuts his foes apart? Why shouldn't a wizard be able to aim straight with a pistol? Why can't my flagellant monk be an avatar of holy retribution wearing armor and crushing skulls with a mace like a templar knight?

 

Either you code all possibilities that can be imagined within the lore, or let the players build the characters they want and imagine the story behind they. And the first option is almost impossible, unfortunately.

[anameforobsidian]

A couple points:

- Pillars is already a class based system, and was going to be one due to its infinity engine inspiration.  It's already gone too far away from that for a bunch of people.  I doubt it's going to change dramatically, and I doubt they want to spend the time and effort doing a complete rebuild.  The one thing it's looking like they'll do is multi-class, which will be nice.

 

- PE's monks are hybrids of Western and Eastern monks; they're a mix of European self-flagellates and Buddhist monks who practice kung-fu.  So while the lore says the founder favored being unarmored, it also says there are many different schools.  If you think of a gameworld like a living world and not a collection of stereotypes, it's pretty obvious that someone would try to mix unarmored combat styles with armor to build a better system.

 

-  The difference in skills creates a remarkably different experience for all classes.  The reason there are so many lol, wut responses to this topic is that virtually everyone was pleasantly surprised by the range and viability of different classes.  Barbs, Fighters, and Monks are all melee but play very differently.  Turning wheel and Barbarian rages are very different.  Ciphers and Rangers play very differently as ranged damage dealers.  Some classes may not be as universally beloved (chanters, rangers, and rogues), but they are all unique.

 

-  There is a significant talent cost for specializing and the rewards are commensurate.  Class based talents strongly encourage using certain playstyles, and certain sets of weapons.  While you can technically finish the game with an arquebus wielding barbarian, it's dumb and they're much less effective in the same role as a ranger.

 

-  Con modifiers and other defenses do quite a bit to differentiate classes.  A wizard with a melee weapon won't out tank a fighter because fighters are getting much more HP per level.  With the athletics revamp, a fighters' natural skill with athletics will make them better at it.

 

-  DnD's weapon restrictions are clumsy.  The lore goes through all kinds of contortions and discontinuities to explain it.  In Dragonlance, the Gods have literally forbidden wizards from using weapons, and every single wizard obeys (even wizards fighting the gods) because wizards are known rule-followers.  OK, that sounds smrt.

 

- Gandalf uses a sword.

Edited December 19, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[Fenixp]

At least some people understood what I was trying to bring to attention, the rest can keep saying whatever they want, God forbid saying anything wrong to their beloved game.

You mean "Some people agree with me, the others don't get it"? :-P I can pretty much guarantee you that everybody understands your point, it's not difficult to grasp. If you want a bit more balanced discussion, not ignoring points being raised which contradict what you're saying would be a good start. And yes, posting criticism of a game on a site which is filled with fanboys will generally mean a lot of people'll disagree with you, unless you raise a point which is widely criticized about the game. Since the game's class differentiation seems to be one of the things most people agree on being exceptional, well... Edited December 19, 2015 by Fenixp

[Zenbane]

I see people agree about Lore, but I haven't seen a single person agree that PoE's class system should just be classless due to the wide use of gear lol

 

Plus it's easy to think everyone agrees with you when you purposely ignore the posts of everyone who disagrees. Tunnel vision provides a blissful existence.

[Teioh_White]

I'm really not even sure what the discussion here is about. Class for classless systems? Pros/cons of limiting gear to different classes/builds? Strict adherence to lore for class/skills? Sufficient infrastrcutre to allow for headcannon in character building? It's all been a bit scattershot'd in here.

[Zenbane]

I think most would agree that it appears as though the OP has never actually played PoE, as noted by the fact that he repeatedly puts emphasis solely on "weapons" as the unique divider between each character class - as opposed to the real divider: talents/skills/unlocks.

 

This false premise is what gives rise to his conclusion that PoE should be classless if weapon restrictions are not enabled. One could challenge the OP to upload his saved game, or at the very least post pictures of his current character build - as I'm curious how he managed to consciously select a Talent and still make these posts, but I doubt he'd be able to do either since he pretty much admitted himself that he doesn't own the game:

 

God forbid saying anything wrong to their beloved game.

 

Did anyone else catch it? He said, "their beloved game," which clearly places ownership of PoE in the hands of everyone but himself. It makes sense to anyone following the discussion and witnessing his strict avoidance of typing anything remotely related to class Talents, let alone actual Character Builds. The only saving grace is the fun read from posters like PrimeJunta, evilcat, anameforobsidian, Fenixp, and why.

 

Oh, and AD&D <-- forgot to type that somewhere lol

[Sedrefilos]

There is no actual discussion. Is a whine why Pillars isn't a copy of DnD regarding gear and classes by the OP and then most people saying that the current free gear system is good.

[why]

I'm actually trying to be charitable with the OP's arguments. There are some areas for common ground, but I agree with Teioh_White that the discussion is too disjointed. You can't establish common ground if it's always shifting. Instead of fighting on all fronts, the OP should focus on those areas where he can at least develop some consensus with other posters. That's why I tried to break the lore argument away from hard wired restrictions, and I still think that's a losing argument here, but at least it's an easier argument to make. I simply can't get behind hard coded class restrictions. I think it was anameforobsidian who pointed out the absurdity of mages being commanded not to use weapons in darksun or some such. That's just clumsy.

[Zenbane]

The focus was definitely lost, especially considering that the thread title recommends a rework of the classes yet the arguments that follow are just about inventory items.

 

We likely could have used a more appropriate title, something akin to: "Why have various types of apples like Fuji and Granny Smith if you are gonna let people eat oranges."

[Sedrefilos]

When you criticize a game, you criticize it for what it is. If it is a part of a series, you compare it to the rest of the games in that particular series. You don't compare it with something else.

DnD is DnD and is made as their designer wanted. When I play a DnD game I dont usually say "why can't I use a 2-handed sword as a mage?". I take the rules as they are and accept I just can't use a 2-handed sword as a mage. Because of that, as a mage (or wizard most accurately) I have other things I can do. Does the fact that I cannot use a 2-handed sword as a wizard in DnD break the game? Nope.

Same goes for Pillars. You accept the rules and say you can use a 2-handed sword as a wizard. Does it break the game? Nope. The game is designed that way that you can be effective in an extent. You can discuss further if there is apoint in doing so but the discussion should take place in the PoE context. You can't talk about Pillars and bring DnD in the conversation. It makes no sense. If in PoE 2 there is a restriction in gear, then we can talk how it works, if it had to be done that way and how it plays compares to PoE 1 etc.

 

The OP reminded me all those threads during beta about how PoE isn't an exact IE game 

Edited December 20, 2015 by Sedrefilos