European Refugee Crisis : Part 2

[BruceVC]

 

 

Bruce: I think you suffer from same blindness as many of politician. You being South African it is understandable as domestic policy of EU isn't something that would be easy or interesting you to follow. Same can't said about our politician but they seem to be similarly obvious of issues.

 

So lets look this issues bit:

In past 6 years anti-EU parties have gained lot of popularity in EU member states. They haven't just been voted in parliaments but they are in lots of governments. Like here in Finland True Finns/Finns Party, which has campaigned against EU from its formation in 1995 (during referendum about joining in EU ), forms now third of the our government and also Centre Party which is leading party in our government is full of anti EU people. Some of them even formed new anti EU and anti Euro party which only purpose is get new referendum about Finland's memberships in EU and EMU. And Finland is not only member state where anti-EU parties and people have become popular. In UK for example current prime minister's party is full of anti-EU members, some even give open support for Brexit.

 

And those boarder closures work well for this anti EU parties. Greece for example, EU forced them in heavy austerity methods, say they need to cut public spending and so on and so forth. Now EU criticizes them because they don't have ability control refugee movement through their country, and criticize them for doing poor job preventing refugees dying in the sea. But there has been quite little enthusiasm to help Greece in current crisis instead other members states threaten to remove Greece privileges in EU if they don't get their border control to work. Golden Dawn (anti-Eu, which many also say to be neo-nazi and fascist party) has already gained popularity in Greece and you can be sure that they will gain more popularity if people of Greece feel that other EU member states have abandoned them.

 

In Austria Freedom Party (anti EU) has gained popularity and you can be sure that they will use refugee situation to gain more support. They tell that Merkel invites refugees to Germany and then closes Germany's borders and Austria needs to take care of these Merkel's guests, see how EU don't work. 

 

In France anti-EU party National Front has gained popularity and refugee crisis has given them lots of new support and they will most likely to use Belgium's decision to close borders as ammunition. Like for example see Belgium wasn't interested to control their borders when terrorist brought weapons to France to kill our citizens, but now they are interested to control their borders when it is about their interests.

 

When you add this lots of other problems that there are currently in EU and how there is difficulties to find common goals that EU should aim towards you can see how there disintegration of EU becomes more and more likely outcome if our politician don't soon take their head from sand and start to again see EU as union where member states need to cooperate and support each other. And if there is no willingness to do so we need to let EU go rather orderly fashion as possible and maybe build new union that is more what people now want instead of trying to force old dream to something that it isn't.

This is a very good post, its reasonable and convincing on resonates with me on some levels, I need time to consider what you say but once again a very good post 

 

But let me ask you two questions 

 

• Do you want the EU to disintegrate and if so what would be the  future ...as you mention do you suggest a new EU? What criteria and laws would bind it together... 
• If you want the EU to survive what would your immediate or long term changes to the EU be  that you feel the EU has to implement to sustain itself..you say things like " member states need to cooperate and support each other" but thats a little unclear as its not specific enough 

 

 

I would like to see EU work. 

 

I would like to see such cooperation as creating clear rules how EU as whole handles refugees and they need to be fair and balanced. We should ensure that no country left alone or or drowned by the problem. There needs to be clear and agreed rules how refugees are divided between countries, how those that don't get asylum are removed from EU. And it must be absolutely sure that registering and controlling refugees could cause problems for country as it can do now. Also EU as whole need to be in charge of refugee issues, like returning them to their home countries, providing shelters etc.. For example so that EU strikes deals with countries like Iraq and Somalia how their citizen can be returned instead of every member country making such deals in bilateral negotiations. Also I would recommend that EU creates refugee fund that pays refugee shelters, returning the rejected applicants, etc. Also EU need institution which job is to ensure that refugees are divided evenly all around EU. Also I would like to see EU institution and court that handles all the asylum applications in EU, because if their applications are accepted they are free to move everywhere in EU so it would be nice if there was uniform rules and institution which decides such things. Of course this are ideas that would mean that EU integrates more and such ideas aren't that popular these days.

 

And things not related to refugee crisis.

 

I would like to see EU finally to abolish mobile phone roaming charges. So that free movement is actually feasible in EU. (This just need cooperation)

 

Also I would like see better economical support systems where member states that have problems because of asynchronous economical issues could get help and ensure that economical bend during crisis is as small as possible and economical crisis is as short as possible. So I would like to better investment and recovery fund systems that can react to problems that single member state face. Especially ECB needs methods how it can give economical support for states which economical growth/decline differs from other Euro countries. 

 

Also there needs to be better cooperation how taxes are paid over borders how assistances/pensions etc. are paid to other member states and how they are taxed and how those taxes are divided. 

 

Also EU needs clear tax haven rules to make sure that companies can't go around some member state's taxes by creating "office" in another. 

 

There are lots of this kind things that in my opinion needs to be better handled on EU level.

 

 

 

you simply cant choose country for refugees while there is free movement within EU. How are you going to make sure that these people stay where they are? Do you also know why they want to go to Germany? Do you understand that EU is not one state with equal economical balance? You have states which have 2-3time higher pays than their neighbors. Until this is resolved you  cant even think about USE. Only thing which holds it together are 'nationalists' ironically. People which have ties to their motherland. If it would not everyone would be in Germany or Sweden and rest of EU would be abandoned

Guys I have been thinking about making a post that you may or may not like

 

Basically its the reasons the EU won't disintegrate but the refugees also wont go away...so if you want a valid reason why the EU won't disintegrate I can tell you but you may not like what I say because I have to be direct and I dont want you guys to think I'm being rude ?

[Elerond]

Guys I have been thinking about making a post that you may or may not like

 

Basically its the reasons the EU won't disintegrate but the refugees also wont go away...so if you want a valid reason why the EU won't disintegrate I can tell you but you may not like what I say because I have to be direct and I dont want you guys to think I'm being rude ?

 

 

There is no need to worry about rudeness in these conversations. So feel free to express your thoughts.

 

 

EDIT: removed unnecessary things to make this page more readable.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Elerond

[Chilloutman]

 

 

 

 

Bruce: I think you suffer from same blindness as many of politician. You being South African it is understandable as domestic policy of EU isn't something that would be easy or interesting you to follow. Same can't said about our politician but they seem to be similarly obvious of issues.

 

So lets look this issues bit:

In past 6 years anti-EU parties have gained lot of popularity in EU member states. They haven't just been voted in parliaments but they are in lots of governments. Like here in Finland True Finns/Finns Party, which has campaigned against EU from its formation in 1995 (during referendum about joining in EU ), forms now third of the our government and also Centre Party which is leading party in our government is full of anti EU people. Some of them even formed new anti EU and anti Euro party which only purpose is get new referendum about Finland's memberships in EU and EMU. And Finland is not only member state where anti-EU parties and people have become popular. In UK for example current prime minister's party is full of anti-EU members, some even give open support for Brexit.

 

And those boarder closures work well for this anti EU parties. Greece for example, EU forced them in heavy austerity methods, say they need to cut public spending and so on and so forth. Now EU criticizes them because they don't have ability control refugee movement through their country, and criticize them for doing poor job preventing refugees dying in the sea. But there has been quite little enthusiasm to help Greece in current crisis instead other members states threaten to remove Greece privileges in EU if they don't get their border control to work. Golden Dawn (anti-Eu, which many also say to be neo-nazi and fascist party) has already gained popularity in Greece and you can be sure that they will gain more popularity if people of Greece feel that other EU member states have abandoned them.

 

In Austria Freedom Party (anti EU) has gained popularity and you can be sure that they will use refugee situation to gain more support. They tell that Merkel invites refugees to Germany and then closes Germany's borders and Austria needs to take care of these Merkel's guests, see how EU don't work. 

 

In France anti-EU party National Front has gained popularity and refugee crisis has given them lots of new support and they will most likely to use Belgium's decision to close borders as ammunition. Like for example see Belgium wasn't interested to control their borders when terrorist brought weapons to France to kill our citizens, but now they are interested to control their borders when it is about their interests.

 

When you add this lots of other problems that there are currently in EU and how there is difficulties to find common goals that EU should aim towards you can see how there disintegration of EU becomes more and more likely outcome if our politician don't soon take their head from sand and start to again see EU as union where member states need to cooperate and support each other. And if there is no willingness to do so we need to let EU go rather orderly fashion as possible and maybe build new union that is more what people now want instead of trying to force old dream to something that it isn't.

This is a very good post, its reasonable and convincing on resonates with me on some levels, I need time to consider what you say but once again a very good post 

 

But let me ask you two questions 

 

• Do you want the EU to disintegrate and if so what would be the  future ...as you mention do you suggest a new EU? What criteria and laws would bind it together... 
• If you want the EU to survive what would your immediate or long term changes to the EU be  that you feel the EU has to implement to sustain itself..you say things like " member states need to cooperate and support each other" but thats a little unclear as its not specific enough 

 

 

I would like to see EU work. 

 

I would like to see such cooperation as creating clear rules how EU as whole handles refugees and they need to be fair and balanced. We should ensure that no country left alone or or drowned by the problem. There needs to be clear and agreed rules how refugees are divided between countries, how those that don't get asylum are removed from EU. And it must be absolutely sure that registering and controlling refugees could cause problems for country as it can do now. Also EU as whole need to be in charge of refugee issues, like returning them to their home countries, providing shelters etc.. For example so that EU strikes deals with countries like Iraq and Somalia how their citizen can be returned instead of every member country making such deals in bilateral negotiations. Also I would recommend that EU creates refugee fund that pays refugee shelters, returning the rejected applicants, etc. Also EU need institution which job is to ensure that refugees are divided evenly all around EU. Also I would like to see EU institution and court that handles all the asylum applications in EU, because if their applications are accepted they are free to move everywhere in EU so it would be nice if there was uniform rules and institution which decides such things. Of course this are ideas that would mean that EU integrates more and such ideas aren't that popular these days.

 

And things not related to refugee crisis.

 

I would like to see EU finally to abolish mobile phone roaming charges. So that free movement is actually feasible in EU. (This just need cooperation)

 

Also I would like see better economical support systems where member states that have problems because of asynchronous economical issues could get help and ensure that economical bend during crisis is as small as possible and economical crisis is as short as possible. So I would like to better investment and recovery fund systems that can react to problems that single member state face. Especially ECB needs methods how it can give economical support for states which economical growth/decline differs from other Euro countries. 

 

Also there needs to be better cooperation how taxes are paid over borders how assistances/pensions etc. are paid to other member states and how they are taxed and how those taxes are divided. 

 

Also EU needs clear tax haven rules to make sure that companies can't go around some member state's taxes by creating "office" in another. 

 

There are lots of this kind things that in my opinion needs to be better handled on EU level.

 

 

 

you simply cant choose country for refugees while there is free movement within EU. How are you going to make sure that these people stay where they are? Do you also know why they want to go to Germany? Do you understand that EU is not one state with equal economical balance? You have states which have 2-3time higher pays than their neighbors. Until this is resolved you  cant even think about USE. Only thing which holds it together are 'nationalists' ironically. People which have ties to their motherland. If it would not everyone would be in Germany or Sweden and rest of EU would be abandoned

Guys I have been thinking about making a post that you may or may not like

 

Basically its the reasons the EU won't disintegrate but the refugees also wont go away...so if you want a valid reason why the EU won't disintegrate I can tell you but you may not like what I say because I have to be direct and I dont want you guys to think I'm being rude ?

 

 

There is no need to worry about rudeness in these conversations. So feel free to express your thoughts.

 

 

useless post just to prolong Bruce quote so it may be one post per page

[BruceVC]

Okay, sorry I took so long to respond. Guys I'll make the post, I am busy tonight but I'll do it tomorrow 

[Drowsy Emperor]

Elerond what are you doing

[majestic]

Elerond what are you doing

 

Invoking Bruce. I'm betting he's standing in front of his mirror chanting ONE BRUCY VC, TWO BRUCY VC, err... uhm, like, right now.

[Darkpriest]

KAME-HAME-BRUUUUCE!!!

[BruceVC]

Guys I am not avoiding making the post, I will  be making it. I'm just at work and I need to be make the post without being disturbed

 

Sorry for the delay

[Gorth]

 

Elerond what are you doing

 

Invoking Bruce. I'm betting he's standing in front of his mirror chanting ONE BRUCY VC, TWO BRUCY VC, err... uhm, like, right now.

 

 

"Bruce" even rhymes a bit with "Beetlejuice"

[BruceVC]

 

 

Elerond what are you doing

 

Invoking Bruce. I'm betting he's standing in front of his mirror chanting ONE BRUCY VC, TWO BRUCY VC, err... uhm, like, right now.

 

 

"Bruce" even rhymes a bit with "Beetlejuice"

 

  u funnny, I enjoyed that movie 

[Chilloutman]

What even that 'VC' stands for?

[BruceVC]

What even that 'VC' stands for?

Victor is my second name and C is my surname 

[Elerond]

 

What even that 'VC' stands for?

Victor is my second name and C is my surname 

 

 

(von) Carstein I presume. 

[HoonDing]

 

keep in mind this is ~2 kms away from the European Commission

 

#cuckrope

[Meshugger]

It just shows that the problems are much bigger and systematic than just a mere "lets catch those terrorists and everything will be fine". I am quite sure that the politicians have a nice plan in the work already.

[BruceVC]

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/order-from-chaos/posts/2015/10/19-turkey-europe-action-plan-syrian-refugees-kirisci

 

Guys here is a good and objective read about the new EU-Turkey relationship and how they plan to address the refugee crisis

 

The end of the article is an excellent synopsis of the content where they say the following , but read the whole article 

 

A new chapter in Turkish-EU relations?

Overall, then, the picture is not very promising. But the very fact that the EU and Turkey were able to reach an agreement at all is evidence that pragmatism may eventually prevail, and that would benefit both. Europe would help Turkey cope with the growing challenges of dealing with millions of refugees, and Turkey would feel that finally some real burden-sharing is occurring. The EU would benefit, too—not only by the influx of refugees being stemmed, but also because it could repair some of the damage that its “Fortress Europe” policies inflicted on its soft power credentials. 

And, most importantly, Syrian refugees and the very notion of international solidarity and burden sharing would win too. By moving beyond the blame game and giving pragmatism a chance, Turkey and the EU might set a precedent for cooperation on other, broader issues. As far-fetched as it might be, pragmatism could open the way to revisiting Turkey’s accession process with a constructive spirit. It could also help both sides address the bigger challenge of finding a solution to the actual root cause of the Syrian refugee crisis. 

In the meantime, the United States and other world powers have an interest in cajoling both Turkey and the EU into giving life to the new action plan—it’s the best step forward in the daunting project of providing a viable future for Syrian refugees. 

[Elerond]

Quite optimistic words.

[BruceVC]

Quite optimistic words.

Yes I think they positive, I like the usage of this new word   " pragmatism " 

[Meshugger]

**** article, as it doesn't adress how they even could control the flow in any effective way and it only highlights how Turkey will benefit from easy travel visas (every 'refugee/immigrant' will just travel normally by the millions instead, and there will be no authority there to control it) and faster process for Turkey entering the EU, which is of no one's interest on the rest of continent as stated before.

 

Besides, this deal is the Merkel plan, which was drafted by ESI (European Stability Institute):

 

http://www.esiweb.org/pdf/ESI%20-%20The%20Merkel%20Plan%20-%20Compassion%20and%20Control%20-%204%20October%202015.pdf

 

...which is a non-profit think-tank organization with donors from the usual suspects (Soros, Rockefeller, etc):

 

http://www.esiweb.org/index.php?lang=en&id=65

 

These people do not care about human lives at all, but rather treat demographics as an economic development numbers that you can shuffle around as potential investment. Now Bruce, go to the following page: 

 

http://stats.oecd.org/

 

Navigate to 'Demography and Population'->'Population Statistics' and scroll down to Germany, then select ages 20-29 and then 30-34 and add the numbers together, about 6 million. With the current trend of people entering Germany without accounting for family re-unification, the number of Germans in that age-group will be a minority by 2020 or so. What you are seeing is a manufactured demographic displacement with Merkel taking the credit for temporary feel-good political points. What these people are doing in their shortsidedness for economic development is inadvertently creating a massive civil war in Germany. And if Germany goes down, so does the rest of the continent.

 

There will be a fire burning of biblical proportions and they will blame the very populations making those countries and their respective cultures as the reasons why it started instead of themselves. 

[Zoraptor]

Quite optimistic words.

 

Quite out of date words- five months out of date. First thing to check on any article, especially any article posted by Bruce and in this case it's in the url.

 

Well, it was a nice quiet few days. Now we just wait to see if oby mysteriously turns up again as well.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

 

Quite optimistic words.

 

Quite out of date words- five months out of date. First thing to check on any article, especially any article posted by Bruce and in this case it's in the url.

 

Well, it was a nice quiet few days. Now we just wait to see if oby mysteriously turns up again as well.

 

 

You cant possibly be suggesting I'm Oby...that makes no sense ?

 

My apologizes, the article is outdated but its still relevant 

Edited March 20, 2016 by BruceVC

[Elerond]

 

Quite optimistic words.

 

Quite out of date words- five months out of date. First thing to check on any article, especially any article posted by Bruce and in this case it's in the url.

 

Well, it was a nice quiet few days. Now we just wait to see if oby mysteriously turns up again as well.

 

 

My words were bit sarcastic as said deal that article spoke with Turkey has already failed and new one has been struck, which has been met with great skepticism

[BruceVC]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-18/eu-leaders-said-to-be-close-to-agreement-with-turkey-on-refugees

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/03/18/eu-turkey-negotiating-breakthrough-deal-on-refugee-crisis.html

 

Here are some  newer articles that are  really just an update of the previous older one, there does appear to be a real agreement between the EU and Turkey

 

This is good news guys...lets try to be a little positive 

[obyknven]

Meanwhile in Mordor. Tribe of Gypsies steal Gaz from piping, autorities try to stop this - gypsies begin riots - police begin mopping-up operation.
http://youtu.be/Lwz4IWgyOM0

[ktchong]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42jpuXJPk0w