Turkey shoots down russian jet

[Qistina]

 

 

 

Russian military actions have reached a more dangerous level with the recent violations of Turkish airspace on 3 October and 4 October by Russian Air Force SU-30 and SU-24 aircraft in the Hatay region. The aircraft in question entered Turkish airspace despite Turkish authorities’ clear, timely and repeated warnings. In accordance with NATO practice, Turkish fighter aircraft responded to these incursions by closing to identify the intruder, after which the Russian planes departed Turkish airspace.

 

 

This is your attitude in a nutshell:

 

 

 

 

This is funny, and they still wonder why people hate USA...

[Longknife]

I'm a bit jaded with the Young Turks on the whole, but this is a case where I value Cenk's input, personally:

 

[kgambit]

@ Elerond

 

I don't think so. The Su-30SM (which is what was involved on the October 3rd incursion) has a limited number of datalinks that restrict the number of targets it can "lock up", so you can't simply lock-up everything. Once you fire an Active radat seeker that's different story as the missile's radar can guide it. The Su-30SM Slot Back radar is capable of both air and surface searches. Doing a radar search of targets and actually getting a target lock aren't the same thing. The Su-30SM Slot Back (N-011M Bars-R) radar provides altitude, heading, range and speed information: discriminating between a stationary SAM and an aircraft at 40,000 feet travelling at 480 mph isn't brain surgery.

 

In addition, the Su-30SM has a RWR that could have identified the type of threat based on the radar frequency band of the threat. Coupled with the active radars, the Su-30SM pilot should have been able to identify the type of threat and its location without resorting to a "panic mode"

 

If the pilot can't make that type of call and/or if a pilot is panicking in that situation, he has no business flying a multi-million dollar piece of hardware.

 

An AEW plane might have provided information about the target threat but AFAIK the Russians haven't deployed one to Syria and the Syrian AF doesn't have the capability.

Edited November 25, 2015 by kgambit

[Qistina]

In before WW3(or 4) and nuclear fallout, i just want to say thank you to you guys for allowing me to join and speak in this forum, you guys are so welcoming and funny too, i hope you guys take care and i wish you guys safe, i don't know if we all can chat like this in the future, maybe the technology will gone and i don't know if we survive, and i also thank Obsidian for making games, i don't know if we can play Obsidian games anymore after this...in anyway i just wish the best for you guys, may Allah bless you and us all...

[Hildegard]

In 2012, when Syria shot down a Turkish jet that had entered Syrian airspace, Turkey's then-PM and current President Erdogan said, "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack."  NATO  condemned Syria for shooting down the Turkish jet, and said the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and a "disregard for international norm," and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

 

Yet again, the double-standard hypocrisy of the West is laid bare for all to witness.

 

NATO and the West having double standards? I'm shocked. 

 

Anyways, testimony of the rescued pilot: https://www.rt.com/news/323431-saved-pilot-turkish-su24/

 

Goes without saying that the pilot is lying, like all evil Russians do. It is known. 

[Malcador]

Well, come now, he is a biased source.

[Darkpriest]

 

In 2012, when Syria shot down a Turkish jet that had entered Syrian airspace, Turkey's then-PM and current President Erdogan said, "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack." NATO condemned Syria for shooting down the Turkish jet, and said the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and a "disregard for international norm," and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

 

Yet again, the double-standard hypocrisy of the West is laid bare for all to witness.

NATO and the West having double standards? I'm shocked.

 

Anyways, testimony of the rescued pilot: https://www.rt.com/news/323431-saved-pilot-turkish-su24/

 

Goes without saying that the pilot is lying, like all evil Russians do. It is known.

Until the radio chatter between the two will be declassified and givne to the public it is probable that he is saying truth. He might be wrong in regards to crossing the 15s narrow strip of Turk airspace but i can see how it would be possible for Turks to shoot down the jet without a warning.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Meshugger]

Hahahaha

 

https://twitter.com/aylajean/status/669521924993777664

 

Trolololooooooooooool

[Darkpriest]

Hahahaha

 

https://twitter.com/aylajean/status/669521924993777664

 

Trolololooooooooooool

 

Additionally, lets not forget that Russians have airbases in Armenia, and Turks like to cross their airspace once in a while, same as with Greek airspace...

[Darkpriest]

Hmm i had some flash of information about the published tape by Turkish army, with Turks sending a warning "Change course", but can't find any audio to it, and surely cannot verify the lenght of it and frequency, additionally the information "change course" is it sufficient and self explentory in the military airforce protocol? Or should another piece of information follow?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Darkpriest

[Malcador]

Hahahaha

 

https://twitter.com/aylajean/status/669521924993777664

 

Trolololooooooooooool

Ah, yes, typical Russian subtlety

[Gorgon]

Hahahaha

 

https://twitter.com/aylajean/status/669521924993777664

 

Trolololooooooooooool

the WW1 one ?

[Zoraptor]

Why you keep bringing up the Syrian Mig incident is beyond me.  I never mentioned it.  What you assume is not my problem.

 

We can both play the emphasis game, I just have to emphasise the one, confirmed, lock during the one, confirmed, intrusion. As I said, I presumed you were talking about the two separate incidents, not two locks during the same one. Easy mistake to make given you were talking about a 2nd, seemingly mythically confirmed by Russia intrusion at the same time.

 

Given the Russian explanations for why the first incursion on October 3rd occurred, you'll excuse me if I refuse to accept anything they say as fact regarding either of those incidents or this one.  YMMV

 

So, no Russian confirmation of the 2nd incident, you just believe NATO? Fair enough, so far as it goes, but you were talking explicitly about Russia admitting two incidents, which it seems never happened and only one was admitted to. That's significantly beyond simply not believing the Russian version, that's putting words into their mouths.

[HoonDing]

[Drowsy Emperor]

Well, Turkey did get scot-free for one of the worst crimes of the 20th century. 

[Zoraptor]

Heh, the 'Turkman' commander who was machine gunning the pilots in their parachutes is actually a proper Turk citizen, it seems, and a prominent member of their phalangist/ fascist movement the Grey Wolves. Might be wise for him to invest in a lifetime supply of EDTA...

 

Hmm i had some flash of information about the published tape by Turkish army, with Turks sending a warning "Change course", but can't find any audio to it, and surely cannot verify the lenght of it and frequency, additionally the information "change course" is it sufficient and self explentory in the military airforce protocol? Or should another piece of information follow?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subNDl0FFl0

is the audio (ignore the video, it's stock) released by the Turkish air force. Means pretty much literally nothing though, it's in english which russian pilots are not required to learn and does not identify which craft it's directed at in any way. There are examples of other warning that have been given in similar circumstances, eg when the Vincennes shot down IranAir655 it identified airspeed, aircraft type and tried various frequencies. OK, so they misidentified speed, aircraft type, and used frequencies that an airbus mostly couldn't monitor, but at least they tried. The Turkish warning which was delivered over a similar time span apparently did none of these things by Turkey's own admission, and there appears to have been no attempt to directly contact or identify the Su24 in any way. It certainly doesn't detract from the distinct impression that it was a deliberated act where a shoot down with pretext was the desired outcome rather than a last resort.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Darkpriest]

Well I'll qoute a piece of information I received:

 

Apparently the Turks have released an audio of the warnings to the Russian aircraft.  The interesting detail is that the warnings came from a Turkish Radar station and not one of the F-16Cs.  That actually fits what both sides have been saying - the Russians claim that they received no warnings from Turkish aircraft (which is true but it is really stretching the truth if you ask me) and the Turks have claimed that they warned the Russians multiple times (and I assumed that the warning would have come from the F-16Cs and didn't stop to think that they might have come from ground radar)

 

Link to a brief audio published by Turks: http://www.independe...r-a6747921.html

 

Interpret this as you want...

[Meshugger]

Heh, the 'Turkman' commander who was machine gunning the pilots in their parachutes is actually a proper Turk citizen, it seems, and a prominent member of their phalangist/ fascist movement the Grey Wolves. Might be wise for him to invest in a lifetime supply of EDTA...

 

Hmm i had some flash of information about the published tape by Turkish army, with Turks sending a warning "Change course", but can't find any audio to it, and surely cannot verify the lenght of it and frequency, additionally the information "change course" is it sufficient and self explentory in the military airforce protocol? Or should another piece of information follow?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subNDl0FFl0

is the audio (ignore the video, it's stock) released by the Turkish air force. Means pretty much literally nothing though, it's in english which russian pilots are not required to learn and does not identify which craft it's directed at in any way. There are examples of other warning that have been given in similar circumstances, eg when the Vincennes shot down IranAir655 it identified airspeed, aircraft type and tried various frequencies. OK, so they misidentified speed, aircraft type, and used frequencies that an airbus mostly couldn't monitor, but at least they tried. The Turkish warning which was delivered over a similar time span apparently did none of these things by Turkey's own admission, and there appears to have been no attempt to directly contact or identify the Su24 in any way. It certainly doesn't detract from the distinct impression that it was a deliberated act where a shoot down with pretext was the desired outcome rather than a last resort.

 

You got to be kidding me.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Heh, the 'Turkman' commander who was machine gunning the pilots in their parachutes is actually a proper Turk citizen, it seems, and a prominent member of their phalangist/ fascist movement the Grey Wolves. Might be wise for him to invest in a lifetime supply of EDTA...

 

 

Hmm i had some flash of information about the published tape by Turkish army, with Turks sending a warning "Change course", but can't find any audio to it, and surely cannot verify the lenght of it and frequency, additionally the information "change course" is it sufficient and self explentory in the military airforce protocol? Or should another piece of information follow?

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subNDl0FFl0

is the audio (ignore the video, it's stock) released by the Turkish air force. Means pretty much literally nothing though, it's in english which russian pilots are not required to learn and does not identify which craft it's directed at in any way. There are examples of other warning that have been given in similar circumstances, eg when the Vincennes shot down IranAir655 it identified airspeed, aircraft type and tried various frequencies. OK, so they misidentified speed, aircraft type, and used frequencies that an airbus mostly couldn't monitor, but at least they tried. The Turkish warning which was delivered over a similar time span apparently did none of these things by Turkey's own admission, and there appears to have been no attempt to directly contact or identify the Su24 in any way. It certainly doesn't detract from the distinct impression that it was a deliberated act where a shoot down with pretext was the desired outcome rather than a last resort.

 

You got to be kidding me.

Nope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

[Meshugger]

 

 

Heh, the 'Turkman' commander who was machine gunning the pilots in their parachutes is actually a proper Turk citizen, it seems, and a prominent member of their phalangist/ fascist movement the Grey Wolves. Might be wise for him to invest in a lifetime supply of EDTA...

 

Hmm i had some flash of information about the published tape by Turkish army, with Turks sending a warning "Change course", but can't find any audio to it, and surely cannot verify the lenght of it and frequency, additionally the information "change course" is it sufficient and self explentory in the military airforce protocol? Or should another piece of information follow?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subNDl0FFl0

is the audio (ignore the video, it's stock) released by the Turkish air force. Means pretty much literally nothing though, it's in english which russian pilots are not required to learn and does not identify which craft it's directed at in any way. There are examples of other warning that have been given in similar circumstances, eg when the Vincennes shot down IranAir655 it identified airspeed, aircraft type and tried various frequencies. OK, so they misidentified speed, aircraft type, and used frequencies that an airbus mostly couldn't monitor, but at least they tried. The Turkish warning which was delivered over a similar time span apparently did none of these things by Turkey's own admission, and there appears to have been no attempt to directly contact or identify the Su24 in any way. It certainly doesn't detract from the distinct impression that it was a deliberated act where a shoot down with pretext was the desired outcome rather than a last resort.

 

You got to be kidding me.

Nope.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_(organization)

 

 

I am quite aware of the Grey Wolves, the comment was about the absurdity of the situation. Meaning that they are actively operating in Syria.

[ktchong]

Fast forward to 2:50:

 

 

 

In 2012, when Syria shot down a Turkish jet that had entered Syrian airspace, Turkey's then-PM and current President Erdogan said, "A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack."  NATO  condemned Syria for shooting down the Turkish jet, and said the shooting down of the plane was "unacceptable" and a "disregard for international norm," and they stood together with Turkey "in the spirit of strong solidarity".

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

 

Yet again, the double-standard hypocrisy of the West is laid bare for all to witness.

 

 

At 2:50 in the video:  a journalist pointed out the hypocrisy to a U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson.  The spokesman's response, "I am not going to talk about an incident that happened three or four years prior."

 

Typical.

 

Yesterday I emailed and messaged Russia Today, pointed them to the 2012 incident and the hypocrisy.   I was hoping Russia or some news agency would pick it up and report it and, more importantly, point out the hypocrisy of the West.   Just a few hours ago, Russia accused Turkey of 'hypocrisy' after Erdogan had admitted airspace violation 'does not justify attack' in 2012.   I do not know if this is the result of my tips, (I know most likely it is not,) but it somehow makes me happy.  (The State Department press conference in the video was earlier today, after I had emailed and messaged Russia Today and other alternative news outlets; as in, the alternatives to the US propaganda news outlets like CNN, Fox and MSNBC.)

Edited November 26, 2015 by ktchong

[Zoraptor]

Well I'll qoute a piece of information I received:

 

Apparently the Turks have released an audio of the warnings to the Russian aircraft.  The interesting detail is that the warnings came from a Turkish Radar station and not one of the F-16Cs.  That actually fits what both sides have been saying - the Russians claim that they received no warnings from Turkish aircraft (which is true but it is really stretching the truth if you ask me) and the Turks have claimed that they warned the Russians multiple times (and I assumed that the warning would have come from the F-16Cs and didn't stop to think that they might have come from ground radar)

Interpret this as you want...

 

I don't know whether that was significant, so far as I am aware the warnings did not identify their origin as being radar station or plane. Probably depends on when the statement was said and whether the Russians presumed warnings would be sent by the planes, certainly the pilot himself seems to give a blunt denial of receiving any warnings whatsoever in his interview.

 

One of the more interesting things is that you can extrapolate back on the Turkish radar plot to see when the jets turned towards Turkish airspace, and the only way the Turkish story works is if the Su24 was flying at around 300kph and around 5 minutes flight time towards Turkey but 600kph when intruding, both are way below the average cruise speed for a military jet of around 900kph (which would give about 1.30 flight time towards Turkey and a ~6s intrusion, per the trace). Some discrepancy might be explained by dropping bombs during the trace, but it's well known that most russian bomb drops are semi dumb computer assisted releases, not actual ground attack (due to Sa-7 etc they stay at 5000m+)

 

Russia is also sending S400 SAMs to Syria now, not exactly unexpected.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Hurlshort]

This reminds me a lot of the end of Top Gun.

[Malcador]

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-holding-turkish-goods-border-relations-sour-101020011--finance.html

 

Seems like a reasonable response so far. Not sure who this will hurt more in the long run.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I've no idea how significant their economic ties are.