Attacks in Paris

[Mamoulian War]

Well as some people previously said, judging average people by football fans is as ridiculous as judging average people by their politicians...

 

 

 

 

well to be fair the football fans have sometimes more decency...

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Oh plenty are, seeing a lot of hand wringing over Arab lives don't matter or African lives don't matter. Not sure they give a crap about European lives so it is amusing.

 

 

 

That's such a weird viewpoint. The amusement value lies in the perceived hypocrisy, I guess?

 

But on the other hand those crying hypocrisy have so many reasons why those lives don't really matter. "Oh I guess it's just a part of life there." "You can't seriously expect the media to report on events that manifestly don't interest viewers." And in the end, the message that emerges from these rationalizations is "your lives don't matter; take your tragedies elsewhere, we're not interested". The problem is, this has been the message since forever. The "hand wringing", as you so charmingly put it, is a reaction to this. You can't really expect people to give a **** about yours after decades of you not giving a **** about theirs. It's the "you claim to be tolerant, how come you're not willing to tolerate intolerance?" problem all over again. Of course people won't extend a courtesy to you which you've amply demonstrated you're unwilling to reciprocate.

 

 

 

Not caring about it is fine, different from boo'ing or whatever else that is not indifference. 

 

 

 

Yes, but the target of that not-indifference can't really be determined solely by the fact that there is booing.

Edited November 18, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The shocking thing is this widespread belief that Canadians are nice and civilized and Americans are barbarians, while Canada has tagged along for every other US war, its foreign policy consisting mostly of nodding when US officials are speaking.

 

If I was an American, I'd practically be offended that Canada gets a free pass for everything.

Heh, yeah... http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/video-surfaces-making-threats-against-muslims-in-quebec

 

 

As for the Turkish fans booing that, eh, I guess they think Europeans dislike them and didn't care when a bunch of them got blown up a while ago.

 

 

There was a time when Turkey aspired more to be like European countries and abandoned much of its islamic heritage, but ever since the US helped Erdogan to power (even if they may not like him much now) he's done a 180 and orientated Turkey toward the muslim world, inching toward a quasi fundamentalist state. Once Turks realized that the process of joining the EU isn't going anywhere they didn't have much to turn to either. Regrettable, but frankly, no one really wants to see Turkey in the EU anyway, at least no one in the Balkans. 

[Malcador]

Well as some people previously said, judging average people by football fans is as ridiculous as judging average people by their politicians...

 

 

 

 

well to be fair the football fans have sometimes more decency...

A poor joke, football fans are absolute scum and far worse than any politician. But people were mad at the football fans, for that, or at least what I've seen. Heh, I guess judging by a few only works when it is Americans

Edited November 18, 2015 by Malcador

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

The core of the problem is, that no one asked anyone to mourn for Turkey, Russia, Lebanon, Kenya... Some people then might come to conclusion, that some lives are not as worthy as others...

People did mourn for Russia, people left flowers at the consulate here. But Kenya and Lebanon are places where people rightly or wrongly see violence as the background. Beirut was a synonym with a warzone not long ago.

 

Paris also had heavy media coverage due to the place it took place, nastiness of it (similar to the Mumbai attacks in terms of coverage) and social media. I doubt Lebanese or Kenyans or Iraqis really give much of a crap when Westerners die.

 

Besides, if there is an outpouring of grief for anyone that dies en masse, fatigue or some mental trauma is inevitable

 

 

 

Beirut in the 70's.... look no further than how the women are dressed.

 

Before the Israelis screwed the Palestinians, and Palestinians screwed up Lebanon.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Drowsy Emperor

[Malcador]

 

Oh plenty are, seeing a lot of hand wringing over Arab lives don't matter or African lives don't matter. Not sure they give a crap about European lives so it is amusing.

 

 

That's such a weird viewpoint. The amusement value lies in the perceived hypocrisy, I guess?

 

But on the other hand those crying hypocrisy have so many reasons why those lives don't really matter. "Oh I guess it's just a part of life there." "You can't seriously expect the media to report on events that manifestly don't interest viewers." And in the end, the message that emerges from these rationalizations is "your lives don't matter; take your tragedies elsewhere, we're not interested". The problem is, this has been the message since forever. The "hand wringing", as you so charmingly put it, is a reaction to this. You can't really expect people to give a **** about yours after decades of you not giving a **** about theirs. It's the "you claim to be tolerant, how come you're not willing to tolerate intolerance?" problem all over again. Of course people won't extend a courtesy to you which you've amply demonstrated you're unwilling to reciprocate.

 

 

 

Not caring about it is fine, different from boo'ing or whatever else that is not indifference.

 

 

Yes, but the target of that not-indifference can't really be determined solely by the fact that there is booing.

 

Not weird at all, if they don't care about another party, why should the other party care about them and why should they be upset if they don't. Plenty of reasons people grow indifferent, or at least not be as upset as other places when other die around the world. Lots of people were saddened or angry at ISIS at the Beirut bombing, or were sad at the Turkish demonsrators getting bombed. So I guess the competition is over how much grief is shown ? That cuts both ways as well.

 

Did find it interesting a Lebanese blogger claimed people in Lebanon were more torn up about the Paris attacks than the Beirut bombimg. If so, wonder why that is - he clamed "Arab lives don't matter to Arabs" which sounds cool and all, but..

 

As for the target of the non-indifference (talk about sanitized language ), think you're being a tad charitable to the Turkish fans there, heh.

 

 

And yes, before my time of course, but was aware Lebanon was a jewel in that region before it got screwed up. Heh, think a game manual referred to it as a "pinchusion everyone used for their own disputes".

Edited November 18, 2015 by Malcador

[Qistina]

 

Yes USA also have making a mess in that area...genocide, rape, and what not? But no one bat an eye....forgotten history

 

[Citation needed.]

 

Or is this the inevitable part of the discussion where the anti-Western zealots descend into throwing around random accusations and expletives to see what sticks?

 

PS:

Reminds me of how Antizionists used to persistently accuse the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) of "systematically raping" Palestinian women as some kind of sick racist oppression power-play... without ever providing any evidence for that slander.

But then one of those Antizionists did her doctoral thesis on that topic, subjecting it to actual research, and found that the IDF had actually one of the lowest rape rates of any army in the world - even though it is currently engaged in an armed conflict and most other armies are not.

And so, without batting an eye, the Antizionists (including the one who did the research) effortlessly switched their narrative to "Not raping Palestinian women proves just how racist the IDF is!!!"

 

 

All you need....

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/04/world/asia/04cnd-philippines.html?_r=0

http://bayanusa.org/no-immunity-case-of-us-troops-gang-rape-of-filipina-woman-must-surrender-to-philippine-jurisdiction/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War

 

 

Now does anyone want to ask why people hate the west and America/USA?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Qistina

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

As for the target of the non-indifference (talk about sanitized language ), think you're being a tad charitable to the Turkish fans there, heh.

 

 

That's entirely possible.

[Ineth]

 

 

And that is also another core of the problem... Media should be independent and at least try to cover more than just the west.

 

The media should be independent of the government.

Not independent of its audience's interests.

Of course every country's media prioritizes reports about events in their part of the world.

 

 

 

Media must be in big part independent of it's audience interests as well, or it will turn to biased bull****. Like that video, which I have linked yesterday, one or two pages ago. It's very challenging to do it correctly, so most of the media rather does not do it at all.

 

Or you want to hear from media only stuff, to which you, as audience completely agree?

 

 

I said "interests", not "ideology".

 

I'd like the media I consume to strive for impartiality and fairness in any story they cover.

 

But which stories are covered to which amount, naturally depends on the audiences' areas of interest.

 

After all, you can't force people to read or view things they aren't that interested in and withhold coverage of events people are interested in. Not unless the government grants your media outlet a monopoly and suppresses other news sources.

 

But I suppose that's exactly your and alum's ideal view of the media: State-sponsored "education" by the academic "elite", with the purpose of getting the backwards masses to "think correctly".

 

Me, I view media as a service on the free market. Fairness and ethical journalistic standards are crucial for making this service valuable to me; total global comprehensiveness not nearly as much.

[Qistina]

Sadly, the world turn eye blind about western attrocities in SEA...we simply do not exist until the modern time...what you know about us is us in the modern time....you see Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore, Brunei, Philipine....you guys have no idea how all these countries come to be, have no idea how the west ****ing us in the history in which lead to the creation of these different countries in SEA....

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

But I suppose that's exactly your and alum's ideal view of the media: State-sponsored "education" by the academic "elite", with the purpose of getting the backwards masses to "think correctly".

 

 

You continue to astonish me with how you can simultaneously hold a vast knowledge about how rational thinking doesn't come naturally to the human mind, yet when faced with the inevitable effects of this on media consumption, you just shrug ineffectually, "eh, what can we do?".

[Gorgon]

French police just got two more lunatics before they could cause any harm. I'd say that's a win,  maybe it's 4 pages back I can't keep tracl of this thread, Anyway good on them.

[Qistina]

The history of SEA is similar to the history of America during the western conquest...the difference is, us Malay peoples are not like the native Americans, we have our own governments, kingdoms, cities...we are civilized. In fact we hold the most important trade port for sea trade between Africa, India, Arab to China and Japan...because we are in the middle...the west came and change everything...the west want to conquer this trade route...the west is ruthless, notorious, greedy....the west is still like this up to today...."For God, Gold and Glory!" the west say

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Qistina

[Malcador]

French police just got two more lunatics before they could cause any harm. I'd say that's a win,  maybe it's 4 pages back I can't keep tracl of this thread, Anyway good on them.

Good that they are taking some alive, at the very least they can get a trial but can also get worked over for information. Well, assuming they didn't just grab people nearby. Shame about the police dog getting killed, too.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Malcador

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Or you want to hear from media only stuff, to which you, as audience completely agree?

 

 

Dude, have you ever read an Ineth post?

 

He wants to hear exactly that, and moreover, a detailed screed on how everybody who disagrees with him can only do so because they're ignorant and biased 

Don't be such an antizionist.

[Meshugger]

French police just got two more lunatics before they could cause any harm. I'd say that's a win,  maybe it's 4 pages back I can't keep tracl of this thread, Anyway good on them.

 

What about the leader (Abdelhamid Abaaoud) who was supposed to be in Syria but somehow was now in Paris? Did they get him alive?

Edited November 18, 2015 by Meshugger

[Gorgon]

No, just two corpses. Woman blew herself up in he raid, man was killed by police. 

[Malcador]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/boko-haram-overtakes-isis-as-worlds-deadliest-terror-organisation-34211019.html

 

Boko Haram takes first place, heh.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

Or you want to hear from media only stuff, to which you, as audience completely agree?

 

Dude, have you ever read an Ineth post?

 

He wants to hear exactly that, and moreover, a detailed screed on how everybody who disagrees with him can only do so because they're ignorant and biased 

Don't be such an antizionist.

 

 

I'm afraid that reference flew right over my head.

[213374U]

But I suppose that's exactly your and alum's ideal view of the media: State-sponsored "education" by the academic "elite", with the purpose of getting the backwards masses to "think correctly".

 

Me, I view media as a service on the free market. Fairness and ethical journalistic standards are crucial for making this service valuable to me; total global comprehensiveness not nearly as much.

 

As opposed to corporate-sponsored "education" by the economic elite?

 

No, state-owned media isn't ideal and the potential for abuse is enormous. But at least they can be kicked out every 4-5 years, in theory. Good luck getting rid of the influence the likes of Carlos Slim, uncle Rupee, or Il Cavaliere have on the media.

 

Fairness and ethical journalistic standards are second to market forces, as you well know.

 

With the Charlie Hebdo attacks in january, we got an "anti-jihad pact" that consolidated repression and undermined civil liberties. I can't wait to see what they come up with now, with general elections in less than two months. I just hope the French don't allow something similar to happen, what with nobody batting an eyelash at Hollande stating that France is now at war, and all...

[Malcador]

What did the anti-jihadi pact do ?

[Mamoulian War]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/boko-haram-overtakes-isis-as-worlds-deadliest-terror-organisation-34211019.html

 

Boko Haram takes first place, heh.

 

And no one will give any damn about it, even if we will be able to defeat ISIS, just like genocide in Rwanda...

[Malcador]

And no one will give any damn about it, even if we will be able to defeat ISIS, just like genocide in Rwanda...

Well, what can you do, resources are finite, states have interests. Nigeria is getting help fighting them, though not sure it's active military aid.

[Elerond]

With the Charlie Hebdo attacks in january, we got an "anti-jihad pact" that consolidated repression and undermined civil liberties. I can't wait to see what they come up with now, with general elections in less than two months. I just hope the French don't allow something similar to happen, what with nobody batting an eyelash at Hollande stating that France is now at war, and all...

 

France in war against ISIS/terrorism is at least somewhat understandable after two terrorist attacks in one year, but what I find more troubling is how quietly and bit celebrating at least Finnish media has taken the fact that article 222 from Treaty of Lisbon was triggered by France and EU's Defense ministers accepted it, so whole EU is now effectively in war with ISIS/terrorism at least in sense of giving military assistance and troops for France.

[Gfted1]

Interesting. I didnt know the EU has a defence pact.