3.00 patch teased by Josh on SA

[Boeroer]

Just type "addexperiencetolevel 16" and see what happens.

[Cyseal]

Thx, wiil WM p2 have greater level cap than this in 3.00 beta?

Edited January 25, 2016 by Cyseal

[AndreaColombo]

TWM pt. 2 should have a level cap of 16.

[Cyseal]

 

TWM pt. 2 should have a level cap of 16.

WM p2 will add a serious chunck of gameplay and exploration. Wouldn't that be unfair not to have a progress of your party along your exploration ? Level up feels rewarding. Edited January 25, 2016 by Cyseal

[Gfted1]

Isnt the current level cap for PoE WM1 14? So that's +2 for WM2.

[Boeroer]

Exactly. I didn't say that "addexperiencetolevel 16" would work.

[Cyseal]

Isnt the current level cap for PoE WM1 14? So that's +2 for WM2.

Isn't that too few level ups compared to the whole DLC?

Beta did introduce some balancing mechanics. Higher level cap could add the balance and more fun.

[Boeroer]

I really don't know what you mean.

 

PoE's level cap was 12. Then came WM Part I and raised it to 14. With WM Part II we will have a cap of 16.

[AndreaColombo]

Speaking of fun, has anyone tried the new Act III scaled-up content?

 

I'm interested in both the level scaling and the encounter redesign. Is it more challenging now?

Edited January 25, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Cyseal]

I really don't know what you mean.

PoE's level cap was 12. Then came WM Part I and raised it to 14. With WM Part II we will have a cap of 16.

It's more compeling to go through the story when you can see the progress in your character more often.

[AndreaColombo]

^ I think leveling up in PoE is pretty easy as it is—my characters feel like they level up often enough. 'Sides the game's pretty easy already; a higher level cap would make it boringly easy (not to mention how poorly the current system would scale at higher levels.)

[Enkeli]

Speaking of fun, has anyone tried the new Act III scaled-up content?

 

I'm interested in both the level scaling and the encounter redesign. Is it more challenging now?

I was waiting for this patch in Act II with my POTD savegame and jumped straight to testing the new upscaled Act III. I have not yet tested everything, but it feels like there are much fewer trashmobs, which is good. Instead there were a bit larger encounters. However, the encounters still feel too easy, not challenging at all. Mobs die quickly and I needed only a few spells in fights, would have won fights even just by autoattacking. Even the Sky Dragon was a pushover. In comparison, the White March content felt much more challenging.

 

It may be that I begun Act III too late - I had done almost every other quest that was available while waiting for the patch to hit, including Cragholdt and the Endless paths. So I was about level 13 and 1/2 by the time I entered Act III, with good endgame equipment as well. But it still feels strange that upscaled content was so easy. Maybe the game could check the player´s level and just adjust the scaling accordingly? As a POE newbie on my second playthrough it feels really hard to know what the proper time is to enter each area in order to experience it at the intended level. It would be more convenient if there was an option to always adjust the challenge upwards if my characters would otherwise be too high level for the area.

 

I can understand that there is a need to keep the main quest possible also for those players who do not complete sidequests and so are at a lower level when entering Act III. However, I am playing on POTD, so it feels like the game should know I am looking for a challenge, and will not get frustrated just because of a little challenge in Act III. If I was going to get frustrated by things like that I would have quit playing on POTD difficulty already in Acts I and II, which had much more challenging content in comparison.

[Infinitron]

In before fully level scaled PoE2.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Infinitron

[Starwars]

Don't even say that man.

[why]

God forbid that they go to full level scaling. I read the post above earlier and that's the first thing I thought. Kill, burn, and bury the thought! Now, the end game should be harder than the middle and all, sure, but this might be more of an issue because of the way the xpacs were developed as part of the kickstarter.

 

I sure as hell hope they don't give in to the lead designer's inclination of balancing to push hard core level scaling.

[anameforobsidian]

God forbid that they go to full level scaling. I read the post above earlier and that's the first thing I thought. Kill, burn, and bury the thought! Now, the end game should be harder than the middle and all, sure, but this might be more of an issue because of the way the xpacs were developed as part of the kickstarter.

 

I sure as hell hope they don't give in to the lead designer's inclination of balancing to push hard core level scaling.

 

 

I don't think you understand the lead designer's inclinations as well as you think you do.

 

J.E. Sawyer, on 09 Jan 2013 - 3:16 PM, said

The reason to scale the crit path special encounters is to allow for the fact that not everyone wants to do a lot of side content. Some people want to (largely) stick to the crit path with minimal side quests.

When it comes to the optional/side content, there won't be any scaling at all. Rats in the cellar will still be rats and may explode from your mere presence and the dragon Chrysophylax will probably burn you to ashes if you mosey up to his lair at 3rd level.

 

I think we've said this before, but the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters and even then, only within a range of levels. E.g. take a boss like Sherincal in IWD2. Maybe you'll encounter her at 5th level, but it's possible you could encounter her at 8th level. If 5th-8th is the most common range, we'd scale around that, but if you encounter her sub-5th level, you'll have to deal with the difference. If you encounter her at 9th or 10th by some x-treme XP mining, it will be a little easier for you.

 

It's annoying to constantly hear the idea that things should be challenging but not impossible for all builds as game-ruining or easy mode or whatever the insult of the week is.  Yes, they make mistakes pursuing balance.  Mistakes are a necessary part of emergent processes.  But that does not mean that balance is not a worthy goal, or that it will ruin the game.

Edited January 27, 2016 by anameforobsidian

[why]

Fair enough Ob's name. I contend that balance is fine and if Mr. Sawyer is looking to keep the king's balance on one end without putting in hard core scaling on the other, I'll gladly retract my statement. If not, then I'll have to remain the voice of this week's insult and let it stand. Without rancor, if course.

[PrimeJunta]

TBH I can't sympathise with the "absolutely no level scaling in any form ever" crowd. BG2 had it. If it was done the same way in Pillars, it would not make things worse.

[WorstUsernameEver]

I see absolutely zero problems with the current implementation of optional level scaling for overleveled parties, personally. The fact that they took pains to make it optional says to me that a fully level-scaled critical path is pretty improbable.

[AndreaColombo]

Personally, I'm a fan of crit-path-only scaling (which may or may not be bracketed.)

 

The crit path being something that all players have to go through when they play the game, regardless of whether they are completionists or not, it makes sense for it to adjust to your level in order to always provide a challenging experience. This is even more important in a game like PoE, where the power gap between completionists and non-completionists is very high; you need to keep the game beatable by casual, non-completionist gamers but completionists deserve some love too.

 

Side quests, on the other hand, are completely optional so it makes sense that you get stomped if you go too early, or steamroll them if you go too late.

 

Appreciate that this is not gonna happen in PoE, but I still advocate that completionists deserve some love. Act III level scaling should be for level 14-16 durgan-packed characters, not for level 10-12 casual parties.

[why]

I would say that level scaling is perfectly fine (which is to say, I wouldn't consider it hard core) as long as it is:

 

Not obtrusive. If it's handled with finesse, you may never even notice it.

 

Doesn't completely coddle the player in side content. Let the player learn to be careful or come back later. Let other players try a harder area and feel like they've accomplished something.

 

Easy areas should be easy. If there's a side quest in the first village to save a cat from dogs who chased it up a tree, I shouldn't return later to clean up side quests and find oit the cat is clinging halfway up a 300 foot cliff sunfounded by fire breathing he'll hounds.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't start hating level scaling until the bad examples pointed themselves out to me and created my understanding of the concept. If that's made me a bit like a cat on a hot tine roof, then a little gentle guidance will set me back on the narrow path. For example I forgot that BG2 had level scaling, but now that PJ points it out, it makes some similar arrangement seem not so off putting. Then again, I wouldn't call that example hard core.

 

The problem that some people have is that we see things as slippery slopes, which is of course silly in a nuanced world. Of ciurse, it doesn't help that other people sometimes exemplify why we worry about slippery slopes.

[gogocactus]

What Why said.

I couldn't agree more with all of what you said . Both with your assertion that a level scaled game should include easy and hard areas regardless of your level, as with your assertion that fears concerning slippery slopes are generally unsubstantiated.

Edited January 27, 2016 by gogocactus

[rheingold]

Leveling is tough, I don't really have any answers. On the one hand you have completionists like me and on the other casual gamers. Seems to me that finding a balance between the 2 styles is impossible.

A substantial part of the problem is the amount of side quests as opposed to critical path content. I know BG2 had a substantial amount of side quests, but for the time it was the exception. Nowadays it seems as the games get longer the side quests expand and the critical path gets proportionally smaller. One way to have greater control over leveling is to reverse the trend, by having the storyline be the major part of the game, not the side quests. Devs wouldn't like that though because generally side quests are less work than building one kick ass central story.

Edited January 27, 2016 by rheingold

[AndreaColombo]

I know BG2 had a substantial amount of side quests, but for the time it was the exception.

 

It also had an experience progression that made the gap between completionists and non-completionists much smaller than it is in PoE. Leveling up in PoE is a bigger deal then it was in (A)D&D games in general, and you level up much faster. That makes balancing for both approaches a lot harder.

[Valorian]

Eh, I find it a little bit sad that some people blame everything on Joshy's "ominous balance" (often in jest surely). It's likely that it was JES who pushed for entirely optional level scaling, which is the next best thing after no level scaling at all.

You'd never get optional level scaling from Bioware (ok never say never), for example. In fact, you'd first get Mike L. proudly announcing no level scaling for DAI during pre-release presentations and then get a completely and mandatory level scaled game regardless, but I digress.

 

Implementation. I'd like an option in the menu to disable all level scaling pop-ups to keep encounters standard without clickin'. I'm also deliberating if I'd prefer it reversed; "standard" to be the hardest/default and a "low level" option triggering if you're low level so you can scale enemies down. 

 

 

As a POE newbie on my second playthrough it feels really hard to know what the proper time is to enter each area in order to experience it at the intended level. 

 

 

The intended level is whatever level you end up at and enemies are intended as Standard sayeth. Late game on Standard should be challenging and people should not be upset if they find enemies on hard or normal too hard (omg enemy I'm in a hurry let me pass want to know what happens next with the storee?) after ignoring half the quests in the game.

 

And, of course, we can't end this discussion without reiterating that level scaling in all forms, critical or non-critical path - a little or a lot, is a disgrace. Being able to totally avoid it with a click is fine though.