Pillars of balancing

[BAdler]

Hey, everyone. I haven't had a chance to personally read through this thread yet, but we do scour the forums when we are looking for ideas for new features and balancing changes to existing features. I'll read through this thread and pass along ideas to the designers of future PoE products and updates.

 

Thanks for all of the feedback. We really appreciate it.

[J.E. Sawyer]

If we make a sequel, we will likely be hitting higher levels with commensurately more powerful items.  PoE was targeting a power growth curve that's in between the original BG (capped out before L10) and IWD (about L15).  Holy Avengers and Vorpal Swords are among the best of the best weapons and seem like they're more appropriate for the upper teens (which BG2 goes in to).  That's why Pale Justice (from IWD) isn't really as powerful as a HA.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the soulbound weapons.  I think the Greenstone Staff and Grey Sleeper could be better, but I think Nightshroud, St. Ydwen's Redeemer, and Stormcaller (especially) are all pretty strong.

 

The Ability and Talent system would likely be revised in a sequel.  I know there are a bunch of Talents that aren't appealing.  I've tried to tune Abilities and Talents up in circumstances where people give specific criticism.  E.g. many of the paladin Abilities and ranger Talents got tuned way up in the last patch.  Fighter abilities are being tuned up in 2.03 (now in beta).

 

The approach to balance will be similar.  We do continue to improve enemy AI and abilities in new expansion areas (e.g. Crägholdt) and will continue to improve base game AI in future patches.

[AndreaColombo]

The Grey Sleeper is rather strong in my opinion.

 

As for attack speed calculation, there have been entire threads dedicated to the subject. PoE is generally bad at communicating how its mechanics work, but that doesn't mean the mechanics are bad. If you really want to know how fast you attack, do a frame by frame analysis. If you don't, eyeball it based on this chart  (part of it is outdated, but close enough.)

 

Damage calculation in PoE is as easy as it gets because the game does it for you. Equip a weapon and the UI will tell you exactly how much your min and max damage is. Of course it varies from character to character: They have different MIG scores, just like different characters had different STR scores in IE games. The same sword doesn't have the same damage output on Imoen and Minsc.

Edited October 28, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[J.E. Sawyer]

BTW, I do totally understand that it's frustrating trying to calculate DPS in the game right now.  It was an ongoing frustration during development that we couldn't report actual base and modified attack and recovery times.  If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

[brindle88]

If we make a sequel, we will likely be hitting higher levels with commensurately more powerful items.  PoE was targeting a power growth curve that's in between the original BG (capped out before L10) and IWD (about L15).  Holy Avengers and Vorpal Swords are among the best of the best weapons and seem like they're more appropriate for the upper teens (which BG2 goes in to).  That's why Pale Justice (from IWD) isn't really as powerful as a HA.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the soulbound weapons.  I think the Greenstone Staff and Grey Sleeper could be better, but I think Nightshroud, St. Ydwen's Redeemer, and Stormcaller (especially) are all pretty strong.

 

The Ability and Talent system would likely be revised in a sequel.  I know there are a bunch of Talents that aren't appealing.  I've tried to tune Abilities and Talents up in circumstances where people give specific criticism.  E.g. many of the paladin Abilities and ranger Talents got tuned way up in the last patch.  Fighter abilities are being tuned up in 2.03 (now in beta).

 

The approach to balance will be similar.  We do continue to improve enemy AI and abilities in new expansion areas (e.g. Crägholdt) and will continue to improve base game AI in future patches.

Playing pillars for me was the equivalent of not being able to put a good book down, reading it from cover to cover. By far the best game I have played since bg2.

 

You guys made something great and you have the opportunity to make something legendary with pillars 2 (if you make it haha).

 

Bg2 had that awe inspiring startling originality with the right mix of a lot off features. I'm sure pillars 2 will be better.

 

If I could throw in my 2 cents worth I would just say: balancing in a way that takes the fun out of combat eg creating mediocre talents and low powered magic items is not the only way to do it. You can create more challenging circumstances while still giving the players the feeling of raw power and fulfilment, which is what the original D&D was all about remember? Gaining levels and becoming master of the universe.

 

Having said that congrats on the game and well done. I have just downloaded sword coast legends it is not even in the same league as pillars of eternity, pillars is on another level, a far better game.

[Cantousent]

I tell you what, the worry over calculating damage output is a legitimate beef, but I think it's one of those things that's inflated in the minds of some members. okay okay, before folks grab pitch forks and fiery brands, I've been there myself. I know how easy it is to get invested and it *is,* as I've said, legitmate. On the other hand, I think its an issue many folks don't even realize exists. To be perfectly candid, I think a lot of folks, especially newbs, plug in weapons and look at the damage on the character sheet. Might not be the wisest way, but I'd bet anything that's what happens. Of course, that's separate from the beef about the lack of epic feeling weapons which is quite different. I don't want the weapons to be more powerful per se. It's just hard to see the epicness for all the pasta salad that is the stats and whatnot.

 

I think, while tidying up the mess of dealing with so many stats and mechanical interactions (without dumbing down a really cool system) would be nice, you'd probably get better press (and a lot less griping) if you added either combat XP or romances to the game. Since I detest one and loathe the other, that's not what I want, but probably a much bigger source of grief from players.

 

As for Pale Justice, it's probably the best weapon in any IE game. The lore is perfect. The fact that so many folks could pick it up and not realize its fearsome prowess is both funny and sad at the same time. It's the ultimate inside joke and about as perfect of a weapon as exists in any game.

 

"Justice always pales in comparison to vanity and ostentatious displays of power. I expected Tyr to manifest his divine will in this blade with lightning and fire. I should have remembered how the blade was given to me... with simple charity and humility."

[Gairnulf]

If we make a sequel, we will likely be hitting higher levels with commensurately more powerful items.  PoE was targeting a power growth curve that's in between the original BG (capped out before L10) and IWD (about L15).  Holy Avengers and Vorpal Swords are among the best of the best weapons and seem like they're more appropriate for the upper teens (which BG2 goes in to).  That's why Pale Justice (from IWD) isn't really as powerful as a HA.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the soulbound weapons.  I think the Greenstone Staff and Grey Sleeper could be better, but I think Nightshroud, St. Ydwen's Redeemer, and Stormcaller (especially) are all pretty strong.

I think it was in this thread where someone pointed out that the highest level weapon in BG was a +3 sword and it was just one such sword in the whole game. Unlike other people, I was happy with Soulbound weapons and how unique they felt. The moments I felt like "Are they kidding with this?" were when I would be rewarded with a high-quality or "unique" weapon that was inferior to what I was able to enchant myself. I think this comes down to abundance or scarcity of crafting ingredients throughout the game and to the maximum effects achievable through enchanting. I don't know, but right now, the player doesn't feel properly rewarded.

 

The player's ability to carry all his crafting items in a limitless inventory (stash) adds to the problem. What I can do, and actually do is, I stockpile crafting materials and unenchanted weapons, and when I spot an encounter of tough enemies, I can enchant the weapons as-needed. It's a cheesy way to play, but no one is stopping me.

 

I'd suggest a crafting system in the lines of BGII for PoEII (you bring ingredients to a special character who crafts the item), with more weapons craftable, but not every weapon being ready to be uber-upgraded at any moment the player decides.

 

The Ability and Talent system would likely be revised in a sequel.  I know there are a bunch of Talents that aren't appealing.  I've tried to tune Abilities and Talents up in circumstances where people give specific criticism.  E.g. many of the paladin Abilities and ranger Talents got tuned way up in the last patch.  Fighter abilities are being tuned up in 2.03 (now in beta).

 

The approach to balance will be similar.  We do continue to improve enemy AI and abilities in new expansion areas (e.g. Crägholdt) and will continue to improve base game AI in future patches.

I don't have enough experience with all the classes to comment on that. At some point I decided to wait until the game is more or less stable before I start experimenting with more playthroughs.

 

 

BTW, I do totally understand that it's frustrating trying to calculate DPS in the game right now.  It was an ongoing frustration during development that we couldn't report actual base and modified attack and recovery times.  If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

I read somewhere that the reason for you being unable to get this data into the UI had technical, not design roots. It's reassuring to know you've registered this problem.

 

With the game feeling easy for me, I was leaning towards the opinion "they've made it for people who don't care about the mechanics anyway" when I got into a pessimistic mood after dashing through mobs without much effort on Hard. Also, I hope the sequel isn't under question, with you saying "If we make a sequel".

 

I still think the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games had the best implementation of RtwP I've played, plus it would be in line with "aiming for the IE feels", but as has been pointed out, I'm a grognard, so what else would I say?

 

 

 

That's all, and thanks a lot for the chime-in

 

P.S. Any people insisting that it's easy or not needed to know your exact attack/recovery speed and damage should feel not a little silly, now that it's official that this has been a problem during development.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Gairnulf

[Infinitron]

I'm of two minds regarding PoE's crafting system. For me, personally, it's not much use for a first playthrough, where I intentionally want to plumb the game of all of its "naturally occurring" magical items and make use of as many of them as I can. So all it means is in a bunch of places, sometimes after defeating a difficult encounter in a dungeon sideroom, I'm getting crafting ingredients I don't care about instead of something else. Not that the IE games had any shortage of vendor loot, of course, but at least those didn't tease you with a use you didn't really care about.

 

But, at the same time I can also see how crafting is a great mechanic for second playthrough build gimmickry. Want to make a point blank "fireball suicide bomber" build who's maximally immune to fire? Craft fire resistance into all of his stuff. There can never be enough naturally occurring fire resistant uniques in the game to accommodate that sort of thing.

 

And of course, I can't discount the possibility of people who want to do that kind of thing even on their first playthrough.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Infinitron

[Cantousent]

The only problem with being forced to use someone like the dwarf in BG2 is that you have to wonder why your mage, steeped in lore and knowledge can't guide your brawny blacksmith fighter through the process of enchanting a weapon. However, I think fleshing out the crafting system and maybe including a dwarf NPC who can do things maybe I cannot or who provides an opportunity through quests, tasks, or some other interaction that eventually increase my skills.

 

Last I played, crafting was just a little too much like taking a list to the grocery, only with monster slaying included.

[J.E. Sawyer]

I read somewhere that the reason for you being unable to get this data into the UI had technical, not design roots. It's reassuring to know you've registered this problem.

 

Oh, yes, it's absolutely a technical problem.  My preference is always to allow players to have as much clarity with what's going on under the hood as possible (if they want it).

[brindle88]

BTW, I do totally understand that it's frustrating trying to calculate DPS in the game right now.  It was an ongoing frustration during development that we couldn't report actual base and modified attack and recovery times.  If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

Yeah this is a lot different from 1d6+2 for a short-sword that attacks once per round haha, I've been playing d&d since I was 12 and am a ie veteran and I still have no idea what the hell you guys have done with this system. I would have to spend about 2 days working this out with semi- complex mathematics on a spreadsheet. The way I use to work it out effectively is you would probably be better off with fast low dps wepons early game and slow high dps weapons late game due to increasing damage reduction.

 

This is not necessarily a bad thing because you are making it hard for players to determine if some weapons are weaker then others, this is good from a role playing perspective.

 

But this would be very very very confusing for people who haven't played d&d before

[Gairnulf]

IMO the best thing from a roleplaying perspective is different weapons being better in different circumstances, which is what PoE has.

 

I wish weapon proficiencies had more levels than picking one talent that makes you proficient with a whole group of weapons, and those weapons weren't so evenly distributed so you have every damage type in every group. I know this is against one of the design goals though.

 

Still, I think there could be some compromise solution - one talent makes you a little better with a group of weapons, and later another talent lets you specialize with just one weapon from this group? Just thinking out loud.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Gairnulf

[brindle88]

IMO the best thing from a roleplaying perspective is different weapons being better in different circumstances, which is what PoE has.I wish weapon proficiencies had more levels than picking one talent that makes you proficient with a whole group of weapons, and those weapons weren't so evenly distributed so you have every damage type in every group. I know this is against one of the design goals though.Still, I think there could be some compromise solution - one talent makes you a little better with a group of weapons, and later another talent lets you specialize with just one weapon from this group? Just thinking out loud.

I absolutely hated how you could only specialise in one weapon in the baldurs gate series so I'm happy with what pillars have done here.

 

The weapons where far more powerful in the BG series so this equaled it out.

[Gairnulf]

Yes, it was constraining, but how many weapons did you have to test in order to tell which one suits you best there, and how many do you have to try on to tell which one is best in your case in PoE? The variability is so great, that I'd just give up on the looking for what works best, if I have to compare every weapon I have, and the differences are often negligible.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Gairnulf

[brindle88]

Yes, it was constraining, but how many weapons did you have to test in order to tell which one suits you best there, and how many do you have to try on to tell which one is best in your case in PoE? The variability is so great, that I'd just give up on the looking for what works best, if I have to compare every weapon I have, and the differences are often negligible.

After patch 2.00 with perception increasing accuracy, IMO you are better of concentrating on weapons that afflict afflictions on crits. Eg increasing perception as much as possible.

 

Again, this adds a hole new spin on things lol

[Karkarov]

 

If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

Yeah I seriously hope the "if" in this sentence is just a red herring.  I would love to see a Pillars 2 and if it needs to go to kickstarter for funding you just shoot me the link the day it goes live.  I and many others will be happy to put our money where our mouth is once more.

 

[Oralaina]

 

If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

Yeah I seriously hope the "if" in this sentence is just a red herring.  I would love to see a Pillars 2 and if it needs to go to kickstarter for funding you just shoot me the link the day it goes live.  I and many others will be happy to put our money where our mouth is once more.

 

 

 

No one (of my fairly extended gaming family, some of whom not only knew of this game and kickstarter but also provided funds) bothered to let me know about this.  I would have done a decent amount had I known.

 

I know now.... and by goddess, I'll be looking at the ability to kickstart for the next game.

[brindle88]

 

If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

 

Yeah I seriously hope the "if" in this sentence is just a red herring.  I would love to see a Pillars 2 and if it needs to go to kickstarter for funding you just shoot me the link the day it goes live.  I and many others will be happy to put our money where our mouth is once more.

Of course they are going to do as equal. He can't officially announce that while he would be in negotiations with stakeholders about it, or would about to enter negotiations about it.

 

The game has sold 500k copies in six months, and will continue to sell well over a long period of thtime.

 

The only thing stopping them from making the sequal to soon is they wouldn't want to affect the sales from the first release and the expansions. So unfortunately we could be waiting a while.

[aweigh0101]

i'll only buy poe 2 if firedorn makes a return 

he should be a chanter npc with deadly limericks perhaps endboss maybe ?? immunity to all afflictions except polymorph ....

[katie]

I must say that if you buff the damage of the powers and just scale the HP of the monsters, the game actually would feel very similarly. Have you never played diablo 3? Despite all of the difficulties in the game, each one feels exactly the same if you are appropriately geared for it.

[Gairnulf]

 

If we make a sequel, fixing that is a high priority.

Yeah I seriously hope the "if" in this sentence is just a red herring.  I would love to see a Pillars 2 and if it needs to go to kickstarter for funding you just shoot me the link the day it goes live.  I and many others will be happy to put our money where our mouth is once more.

 

That's a funny hypothesis. I would back, but only under some express conditions, which I doubt would be met.

[AndreaColombo]

I would back PoE II without thinking twice.

[Leferd]

They delivered on PoE and am happy with the result. That counts as an automatic backing for the sequel.

[Cantousent]

I greatly enjoyed Pillars of Eternity. There are some improvements I'd like to see and one particular story item from the first one that is simply wrong minded that I haven't bothered to bitch about that I would like to have tweaked (not removed or completely changed, just tweaked). Otherwise, all good. I would, of course, back another project at this point. I couldn't say that in honesty until I'd played PoE. ...But I'm sure we'll get another PoE either kickstarted or through a publisher.

[Oralaina]

I didn't know about the kickstarter for PoE.  But now that I'm on board, I'm on board for PoE2.  This is a great return to the sort of games I played so long ago.  So yeah, I'll be backing a "hopefully happens" PoE2.