Why Columbus Day Should Be Abolished

[Bryy]

I haven't, and will not be bothered to watch the videos. Sounds like a whole lot of SJW butthurt. Should we listen to butthurt SJWs? Of course not

If you consider actual history full of SJWs, then sure.

[Meshugger]

 

I haven't, and will not be bothered to watch the videos. Sounds like a whole lot of SJW butthurt. Should we listen to butthurt SJWs? Of course not

If you consider actual history full of SJWs, then sure.

 

 

Contrary to SJWs, i know quite a lot of history and history and study it in my spare time. I know that no historical figure or happening can be divided into any simple black/white moral dichotomy, and especially when trying to apply moral standards of today to yesterdays figures. I also know the importance of the creation of myth becoming larger than the actual man; whole societies are build upon that foundation. I know of the dangers of tyranny and how a cynic, apathetic population can be easily controlled. I know of how those that wish enlighten people about new discoveries abuot the past really seeks to control it and abolish the established foundations. When those myths are gone and the foundations crippled, they are in more control of the future.

 

SJWs are just the useful idiots that help to spread these ideas, like sharing this video because their moral conscience tells them to. They will not understand until they are executed by their peers.

[Bryy]

Moral standards of yesteryear?

 

So, the subjugation and genocide of a society/civilization is a-okay because.... more people were prejudice than there are today?

[Guard Dog]

For the record I've always found Columbus Day to be a strange holiday. The man is credited with finding North America. 1) I didn't realize it was lost & 2) Amerigo Vespucci really deserves the credit because he had the good sense not to stop at the first island he found and the place is named for him after all). But if he hadn't crossed the Atlantic someone else would have. Beside it was done to death at that point. The Scandinavians had already done it 400 years earlier and the Chinese before even that. To top the lot Columbus died believing he had reached Asia even though it had been pretty well proven North America was not Asia. So the biggest thing he was credited for was the result of underestimating the size of the Earth and then getting lost.

 

Now there is no question The Europeans treated the natives brutally. But it's worth mentioning the natives treated each other brutally. Anyone who believes the North American Indian tribes would have evolved into a peaceful egalitarian society where everyone was treated fairly and they all danced happily barefoot through fields of daisies has never bothered to learn anything about their history. If you want to find brutality, savagery and racism look no further than the Indians. Yes group A almost wiped out group B. Had circumstances been different group B would have treated group A no different. So what? As Homer wrote in the Iliad "We men are wretched things".

 

Banning the holiday won't change anything and no one will care why your doing it or indeed even notice it was done. So why bother? Unless of course you are just a fan of futile gestures or think doing "something" will make you feel better. Let me save you some trouble: It won't.

[Meshugger]

Moral standards of yesteryear?

 

So, the subjugation and genocide of a society/civilization is a-okay because.... more people were prejudice than there are today?

 

Completely ignoring my point.

 

You're a good soldier.

[Bryy]

 

Moral standards of yesteryear?

 

So, the subjugation and genocide of a society/civilization is a-okay because.... more people were prejudice than there are today?

 

Completely ignoring my point.

 

You're a good soldier.

 

Yup, don't even respond to me. Just give the good old "you're just a SJW/whatever buzzword it is today".

[Barothmuk]

I absolutely hate historians that moralise and divorce characters from their historical context but even with that in mind Columbus' actions were considered pretty deplorable at the time. If I recall correctly a Spanish priest named las Casas (writing about 50 years later) worked his butt off writing about the horrible conditions of the natives and colonialism.

 

Amusingly (in a horrible way) to prevent the entire native population from being enslaved/wiped out he advocated the use of African slaves thereby kickstarting the most brutal slave trade in human history (I believe he later came to regret that).

[Hurlshort]

*snip of actual historical discussion*

 

To be fair, Amerigo gets a pretty large tribute in the form of two continents being named after him.  

 

But Columbus, despite his flaws, is still the first guy to take his ships west, hit land, and then return with good enough charts for subsequent explorers.  The Vikings in Newfoundland is a fascinating story, and the mystery of Zheng He gives us some fun speculation, but neither triggered the massive changes in the Americas and Europe that came with Columbus's journey.

[213374U]

For the record I've always found Columbus Day to be a strange holiday. The man is credited with finding North America. 1) I didn't realize it was lost & 2) Amerigo Vespucci really deserves the credit because he had the good sense not to stop at the first island he found and the place is named for him after all). But if he hadn't crossed the Atlantic someone else would have. Beside it was done to death at that point. The Scandinavians had already done it 400 years earlier and the Chinese before even that. To top the lot Columbus died believing he had reached Asia even though it had been pretty well proven North America was not Asia. So the biggest thing he was credited for was the result of underestimating the size of the Earth and then getting lost.

 

We tend to remember the name of the first person to do anything conclusively and leave a good record, but we don't necessarily enshrine those who came close, those who attempted it but failed, those who lent the shoulders on which historical figures stood or what have you. We remember Neil Armstrong, but the names of the Apollo 8 crew aren't known nearly as widely (and even Aldrin...). It's unfair, but what can you do.

 

 

 

Anyone who believes the North American Indian tribes would have evolved into a peaceful egalitarian society where everyone was treated fairly and they all danced happily barefoot through fields of daisies has never bothered to learn anything about their history.

Well, the homeland of the original Vandals evolved to be the economic and cultural center of modern Yurop, for instance. Given sufficient time, it's impossible to know what those peoples would have accomplished left to their own devices. That said, I agree with the sentiment. Alternate history and hypothetical scenarios are fun, but ultimately pointless. Personally I can't take anyone who uses either as a basis for an argument seriously.

 

In other news, the mayors of Barcelona and Cádiz have refused to participate in festivities of the national holiday and have gone to Twitter to denounce the "celebration of the anniversary of a genocide", causing equal amounts of lulz and indignation. Apparently "change" around these parts means that political representatives become massive internet trolls. Le sigh.

[Oerwinde]

Now, I hear the genocide claim a lot, but were the natives actually systematically killed? I know like 2/3 of the population in north america was wiped out by plague, but surely they aren't counting that as that happened before colonization.

[Meshugger]

 

 

Moral standards of yesteryear?

 

So, the subjugation and genocide of a society/civilization is a-okay because.... more people were prejudice than there are today?

 

Completely ignoring my point.

 

You're a good soldier.

 

Yup, don't even respond to me. Just give the good old "you're just a SJW/whatever buzzword it is today".

 

 

Me: "History is filled with blood and iron, of which our modern society is built upon. Those acts have created myths with sometimes rosetinted glasses, but they are our foundations, no matter what you think they should be. Trying to change the past is a tool of the useful idiot for its unknown master"

You: "Are you saying that genocide is a-ok?!"

 

'k

[Raithe]

[213374U]

Now, I hear the genocide claim a lot, but were the natives actually systematically killed? I know like 2/3 of the population in north america was wiped out by plague, but surely they aren't counting that as that happened before colonization.

 

You mean systematically, as the word is used in the Cambodian or Armenian cases? No idea, to be honest. Consensus among historians seems to be that natives were treated rather brutally by colonizers, were often worked to death, and conquistadores had a habit of razing towns to make a point. But a standing policy of rounding them up and murdering them en masse? That's harder to establish and contrary to reason as the economy of the New World was strongly dependent on native labor. Killing too many of them was literally bad business.

 

But hey, since when is evidence a requirement for trolling or political statements?

[Malcador]

Wonder if sheer volume can trump organization.

[rjshae]

PC flavor of the day. I don't care really.

[Gfted1]

Religion should be abolished imo. Since its inception it has, by far, been the single biggest blight on mankind. Hundreds of millions of deaths can be laid at its doorstep, it single handedly stagnated the sciences for centuries and it polarizes the masses into black and white camps with no room for compromise. A good start would be to cancel all religious holidays and observations.

[Meshugger]

No great civilization has been founded without a religion.

 

Best of luck though!

Edited October 13, 2015 by Meshugger

[Ineth]

Columbus clearly violated the Prime Directive.

[Leferd]

Religion should be abolished imo. Since its inception it has, by far, been the single biggest blight on mankind. Hundreds of millions of deaths can be laid at its doorstep, it single handedly stagnated the sciences for centuries and it polarizes the masses into black and white camps with no room for compromise. A good start would be to cancel all religious holidays and observations.

To be fair, the Catholic Church --especially the Benedictine monasteries preserved and advanced knowledge in Western Europe for hundreds of years through the "Dark Ages."

[Malcador]

A good start would be to cancel all religious holidays and observations.

Whoa, whoa. You want to take my days off away ? Get ready for the pyre, blasphemer!

[213374U]

No great civilization been founded without a religion.

 

Best of luck though!

 

Yeah... I get the feeling Gfted1 was being a wee bit facetious here... Poe's law at work.

[Meshugger]

 

No great civilization been founded without a religion.

 

Best of luck though!

 

Yeah... I get the feeling Gfted1 was being a wee bit facetious here... Poe's law at work.

 

 

Goddammit, you're probably right.

[Barothmuk]

Religion should be abolished imo. Since its inception it has, by far, been the single biggest blight on mankind. Hundreds of millions of deaths can be laid at its doorstep, it single handedly stagnated the sciences for centuries and it polarizes the masses into black and white camps with no room for compromise. A good start would be to cancel all religious holidays and observations.

Although obviously facetious and wrong in areas it is correct in noting that religion has served as the dominant ideological apparatus for explicitly oppressive institutions and yet has been given a total free pass by contemporary 'progressives'.

 

This year alone I've seen people argue that structurally band-aids and air-conditioners reflect racist and sexist attitudes in modern society and then have the same people refuse to critique religion because those are people's "deeply held beliefs".

 

All bark no bite.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Blarghagh]

 

A good start would be to cancel all religious holidays and observations.

Whoa, whoa. You want to take my days off away ? Get ready for the pyre, blasphemer!

 

 

+1

 

I'm fine with abolishing religion as long as I keep my precious days off.

[Ineth]

religion has served as the dominant ideological apparatus for explicitly oppressive institutions

 

Are you sure?

 

Hitler, Stalin & Mao didn't use religion as their ideological apparatus (in fact the latter two used atheism as part of theirs), yet their institutions were plenty oppressive.