Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

[Elerond]

Of course not they are going purchase or help Greece in euros. They will wait for them to leave the euro and then buy in Drachmas...meaning pennies on the dollar. Lets not forget the RealPolitik here as well, the Russians can play Greece like a fiddle against EU interests if they know what they are doing. Enough to get influence but not too much to make NATO too nervous. But the end result is the same, a weakened EU and a stronger Russia/China.

 

If the Troika haven't forseen such a scenario, then i almost hope that it happens, because stupidity should never go rewarded.

 

They will not be only ones that will run to carcass for cheap snacks, but also lots of people/companies from western countries will also be there. So Greece would had to create laws against foreign buyings if they don't want to lose significant part of their land and infrastructure to foreigns.  

[Meshugger]

 

Of course not they are going purchase or help Greece in euros. They will wait for them to leave the euro and then buy in Drachmas...meaning pennies on the dollar. Lets not forget the RealPolitik here as well, the Russians can play Greece like a fiddle against EU interests if they know what they are doing. Enough to get influence but not too much to make NATO too nervous. But the end result is the same, a weakened EU and a stronger Russia/China.

 

If the Troika haven't forseen such a scenario, then i almost hope that it happens, because stupidity should never go rewarded.

 

They will not be only ones that will run to carcass for cheap snacks, but also lots of people/companies from western countries will also be there. So Greece would had to create laws against foreign buyings if they don't want to lose significant part of their land and infrastructure to foreigns.  

 

 

All true. But remember that we're dealing with two countries veeeeery low on the transparency index. Who knows what kind of backroom-deals are being done this very moment.

[213374U]

Wanting to pretty much be given billions of EUR as a gift, is a strange position from which to say "NO" and be proud of it.

 

 

 

 

He's so dreamy. 

[teknoman2]

 

the thing is that Merkel, Draghi and the rest dont like the new greek government. they were too used to dealing with yes-men, and having someone say NO is painful to them like  a vampire bathing with holy water

Wanting to pretty much be given billions of EUR as a gift, is a strange position from which to say "NO" and be proud of it.

 

gift? the money is given as loan with a very hefty interest rate

in the last 5 years Germany has paid nothing to anyone and has gotten over 500M euro from Greece as interest for the bailout loans. they even admited it publicly!

Greece is getting loans with high interest to pay off loans with low interest and is called a thief too because misinformed people say that the rest of the EU is giving away taxpayer money for free. and that is because 5 years ago, the then PM Papandreou "sold" the greek economy to the IMF and to the germans for a share of the pie. because of his antics during his time as a PM, there was even a rumor (unconfirmed but plausible since he was born there and has the citizenship) that he could not go to USA because there was a federal arrest warrant for him there, for "conspiracy against the state".

Edited July 3, 2015 by teknoman2

[HoonDing]

The Peter Molyneux of politics.

[BruceVC]

 

Wanting to pretty much be given billions of EUR as a gift, is a strange position from which to say "NO" and be proud of it.

 

 

 

 

He's so dreamy. 

 

 

 I watched that whole video and he does make the Greek position in a reasonable way. The main issue I have with his story is the original loans from the IMF, Germany and the ECB were used to address the Greek solvency issues...how would you have prevented Greek bankruptcy without these loans?

[Elerond]

 

 

the thing is that Merkel, Draghi and the rest dont like the new greek government. they were too used to dealing with yes-men, and having someone say NO is painful to them like  a vampire bathing with holy water

Wanting to pretty much be given billions of EUR as a gift, is a strange position from which to say "NO" and be proud of it.

 

gift? the money is given as loan with a very hefty interest rate

in the last 5 years Germany has paid nothing to anyone and has gotten over 500M euro from Greece as interest for the bailout loans. they even admited it publicly!

Greece is getting loans with high interest to pay off loans with low interest and is called a thief too because misinformed people say that the rest of the EU is giving away taxpayer money for free. and that is because 5 years ago, the then PM Papandreou "sold" the greek economy to the IMF and to the germans for a share of the pie. because of his antics during his time as a PM, there was even a rumor (unconfirmed but plausible since he was born there and has the citizenship) that he could not go to USA because there was a federal arrest warrant for him there, for "conspiracy against the state".

 

 

They ask that partial of their debt will be forgiven, so one can argue that they ask billions of euros as gift. And many people all around EU saw those emergency loans as gift at first place.

 

Germany bought most Greece's loans to independent creditors which they weren't capable to pay , and actually lowered Greece's interest rate on those loans. And Germany is biggest participant in ECB and other instances that constantly give Greece emergency funds so that they can pay their loans and pay pension, unemployment benefit, salaries for public employees and so on.

 

Germany is not guilt free in this crisis, but they have put most money and time in solving it. 

Edited July 3, 2015 by Elerond

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

the thing is that Merkel, Draghi and the rest dont like the new greek government. they were too used to dealing with yes-men, and having someone say NO is painful to them like  a vampire bathing with holy water

Wanting to pretty much be given billions of EUR as a gift, is a strange position from which to say "NO" and be proud of it.

 

gift? the money is given as loan with a very hefty interest rate

in the last 5 years Germany has paid nothing to anyone and has gotten over 500M euro from Greece as interest for the bailout loans. they even admited it publicly!

Greece is getting loans with high interest to pay off loans with low interest and is called a thief too because misinformed people say that the rest of the EU is giving away taxpayer money for free. and that is because 5 years ago, the then PM Papandreou "sold" the greek economy to the IMF and to the germans for a share of the pie. because of his antics during his time as a PM, there was even a rumor (unconfirmed but plausible since he was born there and has the citizenship) that he could not go to USA because there was a federal arrest warrant for him there, for "conspiracy against the state".

 

 

They ask that partial of their debt will be forgiven, so one can argue that they ask billions of euros as gift. And many people all around EU saw those emergency loans as gift at first place.

 

Germany bought most Greece's loans to independent creditors which they weren't capable to pay , and actually lowered Greece's interest rate on those loans. And Germany is biggest participant in ECB and other instances that constantly give Greece emergency funds so that they can pay their loans and pay pension, unemployment benefit, salaries for public employees and so on.

 

Germany is not guilt free in this crisis, but they have put most money and time in solving it. 

 

that my friend is misinformation. as i wrote in another post, without any outside financial support since august 2014, the greek government has paid all it's internal obligations (schools, health, salaries and so on) and gave 17 bilion for the loans. ALL of the money "given" to greece have gone to pay off old debts... for the inside needs there are more than enough

do you know the scene from the movie about apollo 13 where that guy says "we have to find a way to fit this sphere into this cube"? this is what is happening right now. the previous governments, instead of making a deal about the money owed, they recklesly took loans to pay off loans and thus increased the overall debt making more loans necessary... and now this government tries to stop the chain reaction and guess who does not want it to stop: those who give the loans. Germany could have bailed out on greece at any time but it keeps pouring money to it... you think they do it out of the kindness of their hearts? they stand to gain more than they spend if the loan reaches a certain height with a greek government willing to cooperate and sell them EVERYTHING to make up for that loan. and that is also the reason germany has done everything possible to sabotage any effort to solve the problem and force the greek government to quit

[Rostere]

Indeed, the interest Greece pays on their loans from Germany is generous considering the situation.

 

I was in Greece some years before the crisis, and I can hardly say I'm surprised. Greece is basically the global centre of tax evasion - it's truly absurd, I have never seen anything like it in my entire life.

 

That said, I think the creditors should have accepted Varoufakis' last proposal. Essentially, the differences lie in how the Greek state should earn its money. No doubt the Greek economy has been worse off since the start of the SYRIZA-led government (if we compare to the other countries which were in a similar situation before), but it might still be better to let the Greeks decide themselves how to live up to their promises. I perfectly understand the criticism of Greek corruption, business-unfriendliness and inefficiency, but they should be more free to address those problems as they see fit themselves so that they can learn from their failures.

[Ineth]

Germany could have bailed out on greece at any time but it keeps pouring money to it... you think they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?

 

Yes, Merkel's government does it because they feel they have a moral responsibility to prevent the Euro and the EU from collapsing.

 

they stand to gain more than they spend if the loan reaches a certain height with a greek government willing to cooperate and sell them EVERYTHING to make up for that loan.

 

 

Your conspiracy theory makes no sense.

 

What Greek assets, exactly, do you believe Merkel wants so bad that she's willing to invest hundreds of billions of German taxpayer Euros for the hypothetical chance of creating a situation where Greece might be forced to sell those assets (but might as well choose to sell them to any other country/entity instead of to her, thus totally ruining her evil master plan)?

[Monte Carlo]

Quite an interesting thread with lots of good points.

 

My two centimes -

 

1. Britain was right in the early nineties to warn the Europeans that a non-tiered Club Med entry into the Euro would be a disaster. So it has proved.

 

2. Greece, an agreeable place with lovely people, was still culturally a post-Ottoman satrapcy, a nest of baked-in corruption and cronyism. Their entry into the original Eurozone was like giving a baby HIV.

 

3. Europe. Europe never changes (the polity, not the continent)

 

4. Did the founding fathers *really* imagine a day where small European nations would have to suffer German-installed technocratic governments, a la Italy? Edit : Obvs I use the term 'founding fathers' in a genuinely ironic context. They were statist morons.

 

5. The Left. The Left never changes (see 3, above). This is government by student union, not a mature democracy. Of course, voting for Syriza was a massive Greek lemming-joke, a frenzied death-phuck of epic proportions

 

6. Et tu, Podema?

 

7. Rock the Drachma (apologies to The Clash)

 

I'd vote NO too, by the way. My heart, quite seriously, bleeds for the Greeks. A flawed, magnificent nation laid low by hubris.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Monte Carlo

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

the thing is that Merkel, Draghi and the rest dont like the new greek government. they were too used to dealing with yes-men, and having someone say NO is painful to them like  a vampire bathing with holy water

Wanting to pretty much be given billions of EUR as a gift, is a strange position from which to say "NO" and be proud of it.

 

gift? the money is given as loan with a very hefty interest rate

in the last 5 years Germany has paid nothing to anyone and has gotten over 500M euro from Greece as interest for the bailout loans. they even admited it publicly!

Greece is getting loans with high interest to pay off loans with low interest and is called a thief too because misinformed people say that the rest of the EU is giving away taxpayer money for free. and that is because 5 years ago, the then PM Papandreou "sold" the greek economy to the IMF and to the germans for a share of the pie. because of his antics during his time as a PM, there was even a rumor (unconfirmed but plausible since he was born there and has the citizenship) that he could not go to USA because there was a federal arrest warrant for him there, for "conspiracy against the state".

 

 

They ask that partial of their debt will be forgiven, so one can argue that they ask billions of euros as gift. And many people all around EU saw those emergency loans as gift at first place.

 

Germany bought most Greece's loans to independent creditors which they weren't capable to pay , and actually lowered Greece's interest rate on those loans. And Germany is biggest participant in ECB and other instances that constantly give Greece emergency funds so that they can pay their loans and pay pension, unemployment benefit, salaries for public employees and so on.

 

Germany is not guilt free in this crisis, but they have put most money and time in solving it. 

 

that my friend is misinformation. as i wrote in another post, without any outside financial support since august 2014, the greek government has paid all it's internal obligations (schools, health, salaries and so on) and gave 17 bilion for the loans. ALL of the money "given" to greece have gone to pay off old debts... for the inside needs there are more than enough

do you know the scene from the movie about apollo 13 where that guy says "we have to find a way to fit this sphere into this cube"? this is what is happening right now. the previous governments, instead of making a deal about the money owed, they recklesly took loans to pay off loans and thus increased the overall debt making more loans necessary... and now this government tries to stop the chain reaction and guess who does not want it to stop: those who give the loans. Germany could have bailed out on greece at any time but it keeps pouring money to it... you think they do it out of the kindness of their hearts? they stand to gain more than they spend if the loan reaches a certain height with a greek government willing to cooperate and sell them EVERYTHING to make up for that loan. and that is also the reason germany has done everything possible to sabotage any effort to solve the problem and force the greek government to quit

 

 

ECB has given Greece emergency funds for several years now and Greece has constantly asked amount of this funds to be increased, so that there is actually money in their banks for people. So quite big part of Greece's internal obligations are actually paid by other euro countries.

 

ECB, other euro countries and IMF bought all Greece's loans to independent creditors, by form of giving Greece loans which they could use to pay those previous loans. These news loans had much lower interest rates that lot of Greece old loans had, because credit markets had started to doubt Greece's ability pay its debts, which wasn't without base as we have seen, which had lead in situation where Greece could not anymore take loans from credit markets to pay their loans like they had previously done, and they were on their way towards default, which would also cause major economic turmoil in other euro countries because lots of their creditors were Europeans biggest banks. Of course lot of blame should be put on those banks, but euro countries decided to save them because estimates of effects of their bankrupts say that letting those banks to go bankrupt would hurt citizens of euro area much more than cuts and tax rises that countries need to do to buy those loans to themselves and prepare towards Greece's default. Euro countries also wanted that Greece will fix it economy, although I would argue against merit quite lot of those fixes.

 

Germany could bailout Greece (because it is just has that much bigger economy), but that would mean that they lose hundreds of billions euros (which means hundreds of billions euros less money for Germany's schools, hospitals, public infrastructure, more taxes for Germans and so on), which isn't something that is easy to sell German voters. So you can blame Germany as much you want, but they helped to make sure that private citizen in euro area don't lose their money because bankrupts of banks by taking big part of risks in Greece's loans to itself, and you can blame that they weren't full altruistic by excepting that Greece will pay their loans and by not giving their money to Greece free but asking some interest for their, which also would make sure that there are incentive for Greece to shorten their loans.

 

Germany has been one of most understanding of the all the creditors that Greece has, but as its biggest creditor it also has most incentive to make sure that Greece pays it debts. But Greece blight isn't seen very favorable light in euro area, because how they drifted on their current situation and how much populism parties use Greece as example how EU and euro don't work and how they only eat all the money from honest working people of [put there any country in euro area], which really puts big shadow over all negotiations with Greece, because if politician are too lenient towards Greece they risk their jobs in their home country and if they are too trick towards Greece they risk Greece defaulting its debts. And now we are in situation where people of Greece feel that troika was too trick towards them (which is arguably true when you look how long it would take Greece to get it economy running and debts paid with troika's plan) and lots of people in other euro countries think that politician have been too lenient towards Greece and that Greece should have kicked out from euro and EU already in 2011, but at least now.  

[Elerond]

Greek scientists lose access to digital journals

Edited July 3, 2015 by Elerond

[Monte Carlo]

^ Dude, the Greeks are losing access to bread, medicine and ATMs. I think access to online academia is the least of their worries right now.

[Elerond]

^ Dude, the Greeks are losing access to bread, medicine and ATMs. I think access to online academia is the least of their worries right now.

 

I posted it because teknoman2's claim that "greek government has paid all it's internal obligations (schools", to show that such claim is maybe bit too simplistic when it comes to full picture of the situation (as if you read article you see that they have struggled with their payments years now).

 

Also in long run losing educational resources can be quite harmful for economical development of the country, so even though it don't seem that alarming in short run, when compared to other effects of economical crisis it can be one most devastating in long run. Of course losing access to articles isn't killing blow for Greek's universities in anyway, but also it don't do them any good.

 

But of course ensuring that people have access to food, medicine, residence and other basic needs are the things that should have the highest priority always.

[Barothmuk]

Stathis Kouvelakis, Syriza central committee member and Professor of political philosophy at King’s College London, argues that the Greek crisis marks the end of the illusion of a democratic Europe. "There have been no negotiations", he says. "That term isn’t adequate for describing what has happened."

 

Why has the Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras finally called a referendum?

 

Even as Tsipras signed the latest set of Greek proposals, the European institutions remained determined to subject him to a genuine humiliation exercise, demanding that he go still further, beyond what he could handle politically: it had become clear that his own party, his parliamentary majority and even a growing part of society were not ready to accept any more concessions.

 

How have we reached this point, after five months of negotiations?

 

There have been no negotiations. That term isn’t adequate for describing what has happened. The European institutions have maintained the same line since the beginning: namely, that of imposing an austerity plan on the new Greek government, forcing it to remain within a framework identical to that of its predecessors and thus showing that electoral contests in Europe can have no effect on what policies are followed, a fortiori when it is an anti-austerity party of the radical Left that wins them. What we call the negotiations were merely a deadly trap – one that has closed in on Tsipras. His error was not to have understood this in time. He thought that if he pushed the discussions as far as possible, the Europeans would ultimately decide on compromise rather than take the risk of a rupture. But they have not conceded anything, while he has given up a lot over the last five months: he has made enormous concessions, public opinion has got used to the idea that an agreement was possible, and the public coffers are empty.

 

Did Tsipras not also make a mistake in thinking that he could achieve less austerity even while remaining in the Eurozone?

 

I am part of the tendency within Syriza that has believed from the outset that wanting to reconcile a rejection of austerity with staying in the euro is a contradiction. And with the ECB deciding to cut off the Greek banks’ main means of financing in February, we saw that it was not indeed possible. The currency weapon has served as a means of pressure on the Greek government in order to force it to renounce its anti-austerity policy. The most recent episode in this blackmail was the Eurogroup compelling Tsipras to close the banks for the whole week, by refusing to extend the current programme. The goal is a clearly political one: by taking the Greeks hostage and creating a situation of panic, particularly among the middle classes and the wealthy, they are attempting either to force the government not to go as far as staging the referendum, or else to dictate the conditions in which it takes place and help the “Yes” camp. Europe has declared war on Greece.

 

Greek society seems very divided…

 

Yes, two tendencies are now clashing. The “no” camp is based on a whole part of the population that is already very heavily affected by austerity, and which perceives the Troika’s new demands as an attempt to humiliate Greece. But the “yes: camp, strengthened by the fear provoked by the banks closing, is also putting together its forces. There can be no doubt that this referendum is a very brave political act. That’s something that we have forgotten, as politics has been run down all over Europe: that important political decisions are always risky ones.

 

What are the possible scenarios for after the referendum?

 

A victory for “yes” would be a major defeat for Tsipras, and it would doubtless force him to organise fresh elections. Conversely, a victory for “no” would strengthen his determination faced with the European institutions, giving him a mandate different from that of the 25 January general election: it would now be a matter of breaking with austerity whatever the consequences – including if that meant leaving the European framework. When he announced that the referendum was going to be held, it was the first time that the word “euro” didn’t appear at all in his speech. That’s no chance thing.

 

Is this Europe’s death certificate?

 

The whole way that the Greek crisis has played out marks the end of a certain idea, or rather, a certain illusion of Europe. Everyone can see its anti-democratic character, which respects only the law of the strongest, as well as its neoliberalism, with its disdain for any form of democratic control. Everyone has been able to see that even though Syriza sought only a partial, moderate, pragmatic rupture with austerity policies, without challenging the fundamentals of the European framework, the clash has been an ultra-violent one. Simply because this government was not ready to capitulate to the neoliberal diktats. Even if the European Union manages to defeat the Greeks’ resistance, it will, I believe, pay a very heavy price for its attitude. Greece is just the most advanced point of the European crisis: the EU’s project has less and less support among public opinion across the continent. 

 

source

Edited July 3, 2015 by Barothmuk

[Monte Carlo]

^ Ha ha ha ha. I just spat out cornflakes laughing.

 

So expecting governments to show fiscal responsibility is a sign of authoritarian neoliberalism? Seriously, Syriza is a joke. A sick joke, to be sure, but a joke nonetheless.

 

There is hope for Greece. They need to GTFO of the Euro, man-up, print drachmas and start again. They also need a government that's interested in governing, not adolescent gesture politics.

[BruceVC]

I love the way some commentators are saying  this vote on Sunday is " either the end or new beginning of the EU " 

 

 

Why? Worst case scenario  Greece leaves the EU ...its not like every  other country undergoing austerity is going to leave. In fact I would argue  that when people see the economic consequences of what happens when you leave the EU under these circumstances it will be convince the likes of Spain and Portugal that the austerity measures are necessary

 

 

I don't see the vote that Greece  will make as the great "seismic event that will decide the future of the EU"  

 
 

[Monte Carlo]

I don't see the vote that Greece  will make as the great "seismic event that will decide the future of the EU" 

 

 

Hmmm. I can agree with this guy to a certain extent on this point at least. It will be seismic if Greece leaves the Euro, let alone the EU proper.

 

This is because it's never happened before. There are also issues around systemic risk / collapse and contagion. The vulnerable states (Portugal, Spain and yes Italy) will watch closely. They might reject anti-austerity parties but OTOH they might become far more belligerent towards the Northern euroland countries (which is to say Germany). France, traditionally the bridge between Club Med and the North, is also nervous.

 

This is a pretty critical moment for the EU. Don't underestimate the significance of the Greek saga.

 

Will European leaders wake up and smell the coffee? Realise that tying southern economies to the Germans is folly, was always folly and is always going to be folly?

 

No. Like First World War generals, they will march their economies into machine-gun fusillades of reality. Historians centuries hence will study it as a masterclass in wishful thinking and hubris.

[213374U]

 

Germany could have bailed out on greece at any time but it keeps pouring money to it... you think they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?

 

Yes, Merkel's government does it because they feel they have a moral responsibility to prevent the Euro and the EU from collapsing.

 

 

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you...

 

Anyway, if you folks are really interested in the composition and history of Greek sovereign debt, so a more fact-based debate can be had, you may want to take a look at this (I'm only halfway through myself).

 

A few juicy tidbits:

 

"Rather than being a product of high public budget deficits, the increase of debt was clearly related to the growth in interest payments. Greece entered the crisis with a debt inherited over the period of debt accumulation of 1980-1993; the main contributor to debt accumulation was the ‘snowball effect’ – present when the implicit interest rate on the debt is higher than GDP nominal growth. This explains two thirds of the increase of debt between 1980 and 2007."

 

"Primary deficits feeding the debt have been further affected by poor performance in income tax collection and employers’ contributions to social security collection. These were much lower than the rest of Eurozone, and are attributed to fraud and illicit capital flows - explained below - benefiting only a minority of the population."

 

"Public expenditure was lower than that of other Eurozone members. The only primary public spending which was higher (as a ratio to GDP) was in defence expenditures, about which a series of corruption scandals need to be further investigated."

 

"Contrary to what is frequently proclaimed, Greek public expenditure (excluding defence) does not explain the debt increase. Public expenditure was lower than in Euro Area countries (EA-11, which comprises Euro-Area countries excluding Greece)."

 

"We estimate that overspending in defence contributed to a debt increase of at least €40 billion. Most of this spending is due to large-scale contracts for the purchase of military equipment supplied by companies based in current creditor countries. Concerns about illegal operations, such as bribery, have been raised in several cases, particularly regarding excessive pricing or inadequacy of the equipment. Greece’s current lenders linked the 2010 bailout to the confirmation of pending military purchase orders"

 

"the majority of the bailout loans given to Greece after 2010, under strict conditionality, have been used for the exclusive benefit of private banks, whether to reimburse their holdings of government bonds or for the recapitalisation of Greek banks. Far from the frequent assertions that the loans “assist” or “aid” the population or the state"

 

It goes on, and on... So yeah. As Victoria Nuland succintly put it, "**** the EU".

[Ineth]

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you...

 

 

And yet you believe that if a government which is desperate to wind itself out of insurmountable debt hand-picks a group of people and calls them "truth committee", and that committee then goes on to conveniently "come to the conclusion" that the debt is illegitimate and in any case everyone else's fault than said government's, those conclusions must be the "facts".

[213374U]

And yet you believe that if a government which is desperate to wind itself out of insurmountable debt hand-picks a group of people and calls them "truth committee", and that committee then goes on to conveniently "come to the conclusion" that the debt is illegitimate and in any case everyone else's fault than said government's, those conclusions must be the "facts".

 

I believe nothing but the data, which is freely available and properly cited. Look it up, bring it up for discussion if you disagree, or keep regurgitating the same baseless neoliberal slogans ad nauseam in the face of contradicting evidence.

 

Do you want to discuss something in particular, or you just don't like the name they chose for the committee? (it's not a government but a parliamentary committee — you know the difference, right?)

Edited July 4, 2015 by 213374U

[Monte Carlo]

If anybody is particularly interested in this subject over the weekend, I've found the Daily Telegraph (15 free articles a month) live-blog on Greece pretty easy to understand for non economics geniuses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11717907/greece-crisis-live-referendum-sunday-vote-austerity.html

Edited July 4, 2015 by Monte Carlo

[melkathi]

Before Bruce asks me to post in here as the off-topic resident Greek: Hi!

 

And that's mostly all I have to say.

But...

My family has always been extremly politically active. We left Synaspismos when the party mutated into the dreg that is now known as SYRIZA. Many other traditional left families have done the same. As a result there is little of the Left left in that party. A reason I keep out of such discussions. It is a party that labeled itself as Left without any relationship to the believes or ideology. They are an opportunistic pack which realized that a left party was easier to usurp. Yes, because the Greek Left is what Monte described: a bunch that got stuck at student union rethoric level.

Greece is a small country. We know each other. Heck, I had lunch with some of those ministers, lounging in a beautifull garden of a mostly illegally constructed summer house.

 

So I'll not try to talk all high and mighty about what economic policies are right or wrong. Pretending to know better than you lot because I live here. But as a friend I'll say this: don't believe much the Greek government is saying. They are untrustworthy, power hungry twerps. Heck they openly admitted only calling for the referendum to sort out inner-party conflicts.

[Monte Carlo]

^ Keep the posts coming Melkathi, am really interested in what Greeks are thinking and what they're going through atm.