Journalism and Bias in the Gaming Industry

[Nonek]

 

I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable 

 

Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

 

 

I am not taking credit for anything.

 

I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it.

 

They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter.

 

Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable 

 

Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

 

 

I am not taking credit for anything.

 

I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it.

 

They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter.

 

Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward.

 

Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole

 

I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy  to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved  

[Nonek]

 

 

 

I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable 

 

Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

 

 

I am not taking credit for anything.

 

I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it.

 

They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter.

 

Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward.

 

 

Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole

 

I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy  to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved  

 

 

You did accuse me of pursuing a false agenda at the end of the last thread but one, and I am perfectly calm and not emotionally invested at all, if you wish to be a coward and run away from an argument that you are losing that is fine. I expected nothing else from you.

 

Since you are now proven to be incapable of engaging in factual discourse, have still not apologised for calling me a liar nor provided any evidence that I pursue a false agenda or offered an apology for that, I am going to ignore you again. One cannot get any kind of answer out of you nor expect any kind of honesty so discussion is pointless.

 

Please don't try and engage in dialogue with me again, thank you.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Nonek

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable 

 

Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

 

 

I am not taking credit for anything.

 

I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it.

 

They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter.

 

Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward.

 

 

Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole

 

I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy  to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved  

 

 

You did accuse me of pursuing a false agenda at the end of the last thread but one, and I am perfectly calm and not emotionally invested at all, if you wish to be a coward and run away from an argument that you are losing that is fine. I expected nothing else from you.

 

Since you are now proven to be incapable of engaging in factual discourse, have still not apologised for calling me a liar nor provided any evidence that I pursue a false agenda or offered an apology for that, I am going to ignore you again. One cannot get any kind of answer out of you nor expect any kind of honesty so discussion is pointless.

 

Please don't try and engage in dialogue with me again, thank you.

 

Nonek you need to understand I do this for a living, as in RL

 

Your intentions were so transparent, you had no real interest in debating with me. You were never debating in good faith...but I did enjoy this little chat 

[Nonek]

Which is it you do in real life? Lose arguments, avoid providing any answers, have all your points disproven or demonstrate your lack of understanding? How have you not been sacked? 

 

I had no intentions other than gaining an apology for your false accusations against me, and disproving that you were interested in factual discourse, I made that clear from the beginning and was proven correct by your repeated evasion and dishonesty. I argued in good faith and truthfully at all times.

 

Now please for the second time i'll ask politely, cease from trying to engage in discourse with me, you've never won one argument and you never will, accept it. Thank you.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Nonek

[ManifestedISO]

Lord are they raised stiff in Blighty. 

[Nonek]

Stiff Mr Iso, perhaps? However I was not the one who initiated this conversation, nor sought this argument, and I have answered all questions posed to me and provided factual, logical discussion in a concise manner rather than tried to evade questions or be dishonest.

[BruceVC]

Which is it you do in real life? Lose arguments, avoid providing any answers, have all your points disproven or demonstrate your lack of understanding? How have you not been sacked? 

 

I had no intentions other than gaining an apology for your false accusations against me, and disproving that you were interested in factual discourse, I made that clear from the beginning and was proven correct by your repeated evasion and dishonesty. I argued in good faith and truthfully at all times.

 

Now please for the second time i'll ask politely, cease from trying to engage in discourse with me, you've never won one argument and you never will, accept it. Thank you.

Sure I'll respect your wishes but anyone actually bothering to read this will see you were disingenuous..." I want an apology " ....seriously ?

 

 

Why don't we rather go skipping through the fields ..hand in hand    

[Nonek]

I do want an apology from you for stating untruthfully that I was a liar, and that I am pursuing a false agenda, that has not changed, it is not disingenuous, it is the simple truth. I have been trying for six pages now to get one.

 

For a third time however I politely ask that since you will not apologise for your untrue insults, and since you are not interested in factual discourse that you cease engaging with me, thank you.

 

Edit: You've derailed this thread enough after all.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Nonek

[Chilloutman]

Nonek you need to understand I do this for a living, as in RL

 

Your intentions were so transparent, you had no real interest in debating with me. You were never debating in good faith...but I did enjoy this little chat 

 

 

politic or paid troll?

[Amentep]

 

 

You cute with your diplomacy that builds at times to irrefutable logic....but not when I''m on the receiving end like when you called me despicable about the Hogan incident....it was true that's what bothered me and my code made it mandatory to accept I was wrong

 

I can easily dispute emotion and invective....in fact I thrive on it but not hard facts

Sorry, wasn't meaning to make you feel bad; I did think supporting the publication of Hogan having sex in private with another man's wife because adultry was immoral was dispicable. Neither Hogan or the other man's wife really "deserved" their intimate moments to be posted to the internet.

 

 

You did make me feel bad but I don't blame you....you played the guilt card marked with fact. There is a difference between Zoe Quinn who was a no name, diffident , depressed programmer having an affair with some equally no name " gaming journalist " and Hogan the super-celebrity sleeping with his friends wife...yet they are also similar so I had to concede I was wrong 

 

I'm not aware that a Zoe Quinn secretly made, non-consented to sex tape had surfaced (I understand people found a nude photo shoot or video or something she'd did years ago that was online and pointed it out in public, but not a sex tape made without her consent). 

 

That said the only aspect of the Zoe Quinn stuff that should ever have been of interest is the potential conflict of interest in the Journalist's article had their been press created that didn't disclose the relationship.  The relationship is - as it should be - a non-issue of itself and (IMO) Zoe Quinn took the brunt of a lot of unfair remarks and criticisms when - realistically - the problem wasn't with any group of pairs of people and their relationship but whether there was an undisclosed bias behind the press created by the journalists.

 

One of the biggest problems (IMO) with the GG narrative is the claim that it's about games journalism (which can be a valid point of concern) and turning it into these personal digressions.  I'm still not 100% sure why Anita got dragged into it other than a large section of the online gaming community have a mad on hate for her and MacIntosh.

 

In short, talking about "Writer A" being paid through Patreon by "Developer B" where "Writer A" wrote a glowing review of "Developer B"'s product without disclosing the financial relationship is a problem.  Talking about "Writer A" sleeping with the best friend of his/her boy/girlfriend, who is the second cousin thrice removed from "Developer B"'s maiden aunt's next door's neighbor is a bunch of hooey, IMO.  Talking about the personal life may be relevant to conflicts with specific articles, but often it seems like gossipy speculation (if not character assassination).

 

Again, IMO.

[Meshugger]

Just a reminder about labels, they might be a bit confusing at times (make sure to watch until the end)

 

[Oerwinde]

IMO, Zoe herself did nothing newsworthy. We don't know any personal motivations, but even if she purposefully slept with Grayson to bring attention to her game, the only one who did anything wrong was Grayson.

 

Anita and co got dragged in because of coincidence. She dropped her video right in the middle of the Gamers Are Dead ****storm, so people latched onto that as well.

 

GG does go a little too far IMO, like how there was a big deal about someone backing a kickstarter then promoting it, and how he should have recused himself because he's an investor. Thats just silly.

[Amentep]

I think the right tact for a new & review outlet to take would be to be guided by the phrase "It is not enough to do no wrong, one must avoid the appearance of impropriety".

 

While I don't think supporting a Kickstarter itself is grounds for recusing from covering the Kickstarted game (because we know that not everyone who kickstarts a game is going to love the finished product), it'd be best if its mentioned in the article that the writer had supported a Kickstarter just to keep disclosures consistent.

 

I'd generally argue the same for Patreon payments.  Other types of relationships probably should end up with that writer not covering the product.

[Bartimaeus]

I'm not aware that a Zoe Quinn secretly made, non-consented to sex tape had surfaced (I understand people found a nude photo shoot or video or something she'd did years ago that was online and pointed it out in public, but not a sex tape made without her consent). 

 

 

That said the only aspect of the Zoe Quinn stuff that should ever have been of interest is the potential conflict of interest in the Journalist's article had their been press created that didn't disclose the relationship.  The relationship is - as it should be - a non-issue of itself and (IMO) Zoe Quinn took the brunt of a lot of unfair remarks and criticisms when - realistically - the problem wasn't with any group of pairs of people and their relationship but whether there was an undisclosed bias behind the press created by the journalists.

 

One of the biggest problems (IMO) with the GG narrative is the claim that it's about games journalism (which can be a valid point of concern) and turning it into these personal digressions.  I'm still not 100% sure why Anita got dragged into it other than a large section of the online gaming community have a mad on hate for her and MacIntosh.

 

In short, talking about "Writer A" being paid through Patreon by "Developer B" where "Writer A" wrote a glowing review of "Developer B"'s product without disclosing the financial relationship is a problem.  Talking about "Writer A" sleeping with the best friend of his/her boy/girlfriend, who is the second cousin thrice removed from "Developer B"'s maiden aunt's next door's neighbor is a bunch of hooey, IMO.  Talking about the personal life may be relevant to conflicts with specific articles, but often it seems like gossipy speculation (if not character assassination).

 

Again, IMO.

 

 

The only thing Quinn really deserved criticism for, IMO, was her demonization of the Fine Young Capitalists project. Outside of that, she may not have been exactly a lovely-seeming person, but anger should've been more focused at the actual game journalists whom she may or may not have had relations with...who're the ones that actually failed to disclose said relations.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Amentep]

I was only really talking about the relationship stuff (for example the whole "Zoe is a rapist by her definition because..." stuff that happened).

 

I think criticism of the FYCap is fine as long as it sticks to why Zoe was mischaracterising FYCap or how her reasoning may have been flawed.  But again the perception I had of what I read during that period was "Zoe sought to end FYCap trying to help a woman developer" or "Zoe uses odd logic to be against this positive contest" was often lost in "Zoe cheated on her boyfriend and she technically raped her boyfriend by the definition of rape her boyfriend attributed to her...oh and did you see the nude pics she took when she was younger, etc, etc."

Edited July 1, 2015 by Amentep

[Blarghagh]

IMO, Zoe herself did nothing newsworthy. We don't know any personal motivations, but even if she purposefully slept with Grayson to bring attention to her game, the only one who did anything wrong was Grayson.

 

Agreed. One of the reasons GamerGate lasted so long is the people who were pissed about Grayson were lumped in with the people who were pissed about (and harassing) Quinn. The whole thing with Quinn was an awful clusterhump of internet hate and anyone who participated in that was well below human dignity. But game sites used that as an excuse to pretend Grayson did nothing wrong and anyone who pretended otherwise was supposedly just part of the harassment campaign against Quinn. Instead of acknowledging the people with a legit concern over breach of trust, they insulted them and decided to turn that breach of trust in a whole canyon, that distrust turning into a crusade. I essentially think this thing would have been over and done with in less than a month if Gawker had acted with a micrograin of dignity.

[Meshugger]

Everything about Zoe would've died out within a week if it wasn't for the censorship campaign. It was the scandal of the week.

[Zoraptor]

IMO, Zoe herself did nothing newsworthy. We don't know any personal motivations, but even if she purposefully slept with Grayson to bring attention to her game, the only one who did anything wrong was Grayson.

 

I'd change the last bit slightly to say that she did nothing wrong that was of public interest, cheating in a relationship is morally wrong most would say, but it is a private matter and isn't really anyone else's business except the involved parties except in extraordinary circumstances which certainly didn't apply here. It was gossip rather than news, one might say. Which is also more or less Hulk Hogan's reasoning vs Gawker.

 

Having said that, her reaction certainly didn't help matters and went a long way towards legitimising the public interest and making it news, at least in regards to her reaction itself.

 

Apart from that the problem was that Grayson seemingly didn't/ doesn't think he did anything wrong and that his privacy should be paramount, and that antagonised many. I actually have a bit of sympathy for Grayson there since I can easily believe he didn't think he did anything wrong, wrote objectively anyway (and I'd use the example I've used before, I bet most people here would have no problem writing a review of an Obsidian game and believe they'd be objective) and most of the reason the issue had legs was due to the other party, not him. I don't like Grayson, he was not good at RPS and worse at Kotaku but I'm less than convinced he actively set out to be unethical as opposed to not even considering those implications.

[Volourn]

"GG does go a little too far IMO,"

 

No. It doesn't go far enough.

 

P.S. GG has nothing to do with death or rape threats so lying and pretending it does is delusional and bullcrap.

 

But anti Ggers need to be DESTROYED. (that is NOT a call for physical violence so don't be stupid and pretend it is).

[BruceVC]

 

 

P.S. GG has nothing to do with death or rape threats so lying and pretending it does is delusional and bullcrap.

 

 

 citation needed 

[Hurlshort]

If SJW's are all murdering nazis, then GGer's are all rapists.  You can't have your hyperbole on one side only!

[BruceVC]

If SJW's are all murdering nazis, then GGer's are all rapists.  You can't have your hyperbole on one side only!

Sounds about right 

[Volourn]

"If SJW's are all murdering nazis, then GGer's are all rapists.  You can't have your hyperbole on one side only!"

 

I'm fine with that.

 

I'm been called worse things.

[kirottu]

One of the biggest problems (IMO) with the GG narrative is the claim that it's about games journalism (which can be a valid point of concern) and turning it into these personal digressions.  I'm still not 100% sure why Anita got dragged into it other than a large section of the online gaming community have a mad on hate for her and MacIntosh.

She did this, but with GamerGate.

 

As something gets popular enough she will find someway to unfairly criticize it and then label every criticism she gets in return as harassment with one example that actually was harassment.