The "rape culture" moral panic on US college campuses

[Fighter]

mmm..good points raised. I don't believe innocent people should go to jail but I don't think this systemic advantage translates to that. This is about the initial accusation  been seen as real, you still need to go to court to prove the charges.

 

I am not sure what exactly you mean by "initial accusation".

 

This:

 

1. After revising her initial incoherent story a few times, she settles on claiming that while she did initiate the sexual encounter, she silently "withdrew consent" at some point during it, and John failed to get "affirmative consent" from her in accordance with the "Yes means Yes" principle.
2. John finds himself in front of a kangaroo court where:
   • He's not allowed to have a legal advocate (while the accuser does have one).
   • He's not allowed to present evidence against the accuser.
   • He's not allowed to face or cross-examine the accuser.
   • The "court" is made up of people without legal training, who were only prepped using feminist activist material which claims  that "women almost never lie about rape".
3. Said kangaroo court rules to expel John from the college on the charge of rape, because he failed to prove that he complied with "affirmative consent".

 

 

Does not sound fair or reasonable at all. It sounds like satire frankly.

[BruceVC]

 

mmm..good points raised. I don't believe innocent people should go to jail but I don't think this systemic advantage translates to that. This is about the initial accusation  been seen as real, you still need to go to court to prove the charges.

 

I am not sure what exactly you mean by "initial accusation".

 

This:

 

1. After revising her initial incoherent story a few times, she settles on claiming that while she did initiate the sexual encounter, she silently "withdrew consent" at some point during it, and John failed to get "affirmative consent" from her in accordance with the "Yes means Yes" principle.
2. John finds himself in front of a kangaroo court where:
   • He's not allowed to have a legal advocate (while the accuser does have one).
   • He's not allowed to present evidence against the accuser.
   • He's not allowed to face or cross-examine the accuser.
   • The "court" is made up of people without legal training, who were only prepped using feminist activist material which claims  that "women almost never lie about rape".
3. Said kangaroo court rules to expel John from the college on the charge of rape, because he failed to prove that he complied with "affirmative consent".

 

 

Does not sound fair or reasonable at all. It sounds like satire frankly.

 

Sorry I was referring to cases of rape outside of universities where you could go to jail, this university hypothetical is not about John going to jail 

[Fighter]

 

Sorry I was referring to cases of rape outside of universities where you could go to jail, this university hypothetical is not about John going to jail 

 

 

But it is about justice and a man's future.

[Malcador]

You want to see rape culture, see the exam writers at my University.

[213374U]

Hahaha, oh wow. Walsingham being accused of being a lefty! Welcome to the club, old boy comrade!
 
 
 

Kidding aside, I do think that colleges were meant to be - and have the potential to be - places that foster rational discourse and a tolerant exchange of ideas, and that the fact that many college communities are throwing away that ideal in the name an infantilizing authoritarian conception of "safety", is a loss for society.
 
How are people who feel "unsafe" and need a "safe space" because someone dared to calmly confront them with the fact that their favourite advocacy data/statistics are unsound, supposed to become the leaders of tomorrow?
 
How can people who believe in banning (or violently preventing) those outside of their ideological in-group from speaking (while never actually having listened to their arguments), uphold a liberal democracy?

 

I've seen people freak out when their favorite theory is challenged by new research, it happens relatively often in the strength and conditioning culture, and it's not a phenomenon restricted to students — I've seen people with advanced degrees throw incredibly childish tantrums and fall back to name-calling over social networks. The problem, I think, lies with the causes and mechanisms that result in those people being "the leaders of tomorrow", and those are societal and cultural, not circumscribed to universities. The Age of Reason ended a long time ago, and democracy is a word that has completely lost its meaning.

[Enoch]

These are problems without easy solutions. 

 

Rape and sexual assault are notoriously difficult crimes to prosecute.  It is quite rare for a rape/SA to occur in a situation so well documented that a defense attorney couldn't raise a reasonable doubt as to the absence of consent.  Particularly so when the creeps who perpetrate these kinds of crimes engineer the circumstances to protect themselves in advance, as in the classic 'frathouse party' sexual assault fact pattern. 

 

Compounding this, until rather recently, colleges and college-town political institutions (i.e., cops, DAs) were generally pretty patriarchal organizations.  They are/were also in a competitive environment with regard to recruiting students and faculty, and thus strive/strove to protect their reputations, in part by avoiding any big public rape trials.  This created circumstances where lots and lots of rape/SA victims found themselves with no option but to deal with it-- the DA wouldn't prosecute unless they had multiple stone-cold-sober witnesses, and the school would rather pretend it didn't happen and thus deferred to the DA.

 

That's what folks talk about when they say "rape culture."  And if you don't see problems with the above, well, I don't know what to tell you. 

 

 

The thing is, now that schools are taking these sorts of things more seriously (driven largely by the fact that a majority of American undergraduates are now female), there is no clear answer regarding how to make things less bad.  The standard for prosecution remains the same, but if you lower the standard for school-initiated discipline like expulsion, you risk "false positives," as in the simplified story told in the OP.   Which ****ty outcome is worse-- potentially innocent dudes getting expelled, or ladies getting raped and seeing everyone around them line up to protect the perpetrator?

 

The one somewhat-easy partial answer is to change the "culture."  For example, everybody should know that there are risks to getting blackout-drunk with folks who you don't know well enough to trust, not just women.  Dudebros should be willing to step in and stop their wingman from crossing the line (and give honest testimony if/when they do).  But that's a slow process.  Maybe a little overreaction in administrative punishment practices is a good way to kickstart that?  I don't know.  

[Hurlshort]

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.   

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.

 

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

[Elerond]

 

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

 

We could give him same helpful tips that we give women, don't drink too much, don't go in parties alone, don't dress up too sexy, don't be friends with members of opposite sex, don't be out in late, etc.. 

[Nonek]

 

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

 

Simple, have a fit for purpose system that would dismiss the case as spurious, treat the accused as innocent until proven guilty, with all the benefits of the law behind him, and lastly prosecute the young lady making the frivolous accusation and forcing sex on the unconcious young man. To make such false rape accusations and call into disrepute legitimate cases, well this must be judged harshly and prosecuted accordingly, so that the real cases are not tarnished by liars and abusers.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Nonek

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.

 

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

We could give him same helpful tips that we give women, don't drink too much, don't go in parties alone, don't dress up too sexy, don't be friends with members of opposite sex, don't be out in late, etc..

But we should know by now those tips are bull****. I'm being serious, what preventive measures can one take to prevent a situation like this?

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

We could give him same helpful tips that we give women, don't drink too much, don't go in parties alone, don't dress up too sexy, don't be friends with members of opposite sex, don't be out in late, etc..

But we should know by now those tips are bull****. I'm being serious, what preventive measures can one take to prevent a situation like this?

 

I would see this case as an anomaly, I doubt this is very common

 

So you should be fine going out and  meeting new  ladies KP, no need to worry to much 

[Elerond]

Boston Globe has article about this case, in my opinion it gives bit better picture about big picture around the case, than article in OP.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/29/amherst/4t6JtKmaz7vlYSrQk5NDyJ/story.html

[Elerond]

 

 

 

For any of you guys who are actually worried about getting accused of rape, the solution is pretty simple.  Don't put out until the 3rd date.  That usually is long enough to see what type of crazy you are dealing with.    

 

I was in a frat, we had our crazy parties, but I don't know a single guy who met a girl and had sex with her on the same night.  Maybe we all just had weak game, but that seems better than getting accused of something like this.

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

We could give him same helpful tips that we give women, don't drink too much, don't go in parties alone, don't dress up too sexy, don't be friends with members of opposite sex, don't be out in late, etc..

But we should know by now those tips are bull****. I'm being serious, what preventive measures can one take to prevent a situation like this?

 

 

There really aren't effective preventive measures. Best what one can do is to control drinking so that one don't suffer from memory losses and maybe have friends around to witness original encounter and prevent you going/making out/etc. with people that you aren't in intimate relationship when you have had too much to drink. But even such measures are such that they are easier to say than actually follow.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

 

We could give him same helpful tips that we give women, don't drink too much, don't go in parties alone, don't dress up too sexy, don't be friends with members of opposite sex, don't be out in late, etc.. 

 

 

Solid. Gold.  

 

But we should know by now those tips are bull****. I'm being serious, what preventive measures can one take to prevent a situation like this?

 

 

None.

 

But you can keep in mind that while the plural of anecdote isn't "data", the singular sure as hell isn't either. So until reliable statistics turn up about the false conviction rates being higher than the number of actual rape cases (ie. "proof that the program causes more harm than good"), I remain sceptical of the idea that incidents such as this are a widespread menace.

[Nonek]

Boston Globe has article about this case, in my opinion it gives bit better picture about big picture around the case, than article in OP.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/05/29/amherst/4t6JtKmaz7vlYSrQk5NDyJ/story.html

 

I'd definitely be taking action against the counsellor whom advocated a false charge of rape being the best action, the college has obviously swung from one extreme to another, and this young man has paid the price for thier incompetence. Hopefully he is vindicated and the school is forced to implement new, more balanced procedures.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

But in this case, the guy never dated his accuser. In fact, it seems that she initiated oral sex on him while he was blackout drunk. What preventive measures could he have taken to stop from having his girlfriend's roommate performing oral sex while he was passed out and accusing him of rape two years later?

 

 

We could give him same helpful tips that we give women, don't drink too much, don't go in parties alone, don't dress up too sexy, don't be friends with members of opposite sex, don't be out in late, etc..

 

Solid. Gold.  

 

But we should know by now those tips are bull****. I'm being serious, what preventive measures can one take to prevent a situation like this?

 

 

None.

 

But you can keep in mind that while the plural of anecdote isn't "data", the singular sure as hell isn't either. So until reliable statistics turn up about the false conviction rates being higher than the number of actual rape cases (ie. "proof that the program causes more harm than good"), I remain sceptical of the idea that incidents such as this are a widespread menace.

I'm not arguing that it is widespread, I'm wondering how I can prevent such a situation. Given that I am the same age as the accused, in college, and associate with women, a possibility exists that I may be in a similar situation and I would like to know what I can do to avoid it.

[Blarghagh]

You can't, but it happening to you might be a benefit to your life experience. According to some...

[BruceVC]

You can't, but it happening to you might be a benefit to your life experience. According to some...

 

 

Yeah KP....you can't seriously expect me to believe that this is something that really bothers you ?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The idea the past 5 years of going to university, paid by working a full-time job I hate, can be rendered null because I cross paths with the wrong person while intoxicated bothers me quite a bit.

Edited June 14, 2015 by KaineParker

[Nonek]

It's a worry, and having children whom will soon enough be attending university i'm sympathetic to your wariness Kaine, but for the life of me I can't see how one could avoid such a situation without inhibiting ones enjoyment of those years. Of course you could see those years as simply work experience, study, work and not really have the time to party, but I wouldn't want to see any young person lead such a joyless existence. All the advice I can offer is, find good friends whom would not perform such base actions.

 

It's certainly a messed up situation however.

[Blarghagh]

 

You can't, but it happening to you might be a benefit to your life experience. According to some...

 

 

Yeah KP....you can't seriously expect me to believe that this is something that really bothers you ?

 

 

You very obviously do not know what I referenced. I'll save you the trouble and just tell you it's better for your argument that you unlike it asap.

[BruceVC]

The idea the past 5 years of going to university, paid by working a full-time job I hate, can be rendered null because I cross paths with the wrong person while intoxicated bothers me quite a bit.

 

I take back what I said, this can impact you. I do see the concern

 

The one consolation I can give you is this is not widespread

[Hurlshort]

There are a lot of terrible things that can happen in life, and being drunk can increase the odds of those things happening.  That's just life.  The odds of this particular scenario are still fairly low, I'd imagine.  And honestly, if the evidence in his suit vs. Amherst holds up, he's going to get a sizeable payment for his troubles.  

 

As everyone else has said, surround yourselves with people you trust, and you should be in pretty good shape.  

[Fighter]

Solid. Gold.  

 

Yep "gold". First gets raped then branded a rapist. It must be that male privilege we keep hearing about. Double funny.