A few things I never understood: Adra, Hollowborn, & Magran conversation

[Omnicron]

I am sorry if some of these questions have been answered elsewhere, have been reading the topics related tho these questions here and there. I am a fairly careful reader, but somehow some of the details seems to have passed me by. 

 

 

 

 

Loads of Endgame Spoilers obviously. 

 

 

 

 

I want to start by asking something I did not quite get when I spoke to Magran. I had Durance and Eder in my party, and I had the conversation with Durance about how Magran tried to kill him to cover her own tracks. I was like, wait, what? and I loaded and read the dialogue carefully again and I did not see anything in the conversation which implied that Magran was in a partnership with Woedica like Durance suggested. Why would she help Woedica by killing Waidwen?? I don't really understand that. I also do not understand why Eder had nothing to say on the matter, I mean the other Gods just implied that "even a God can be killed" which is one of Eder's central questions: Was Waidwen really Eothas? 

 

Now when finishing the game I have chosen a couple of options, and it does not matter what I do with the souls the Hollowborn stop. I have taken the souls out of the cycle ans given them to Woedica and I have used it to strengthen the Dyrwood and still the problem of the soul cycle is solved.  So this machine must have been taking the souls out of the children at conception or something somehow? I know Sun and Shadow was suppose to be a place where souls could be trapped somehow, but I still do not see how that is causing Hollowborn. It is not clear how the soul cycle works, but like I said, even feeding the souls to Woedica stops the hollowborn problem, so if they are out of the cycle then new life should not be deficient by lacking trapped souls, those souls simply do not seem to come into play. I also am unsure whether the machines in other places fed this one, but my understanding was those efforts had more to do with discrediting animancy.

 

Lastly, from the start of the game in the encampment you are given the idea that Adra is very mysterious but vital part of the world. That the veins go deep into the heart of the world. But I still am unsure of its significance. 

[Idleray]

I had similar mis-forgivings about how vague Durance's (and Grieving Mother's) writing was.

 

I'd chalk the inconsistencies about souls to the writers not thinking about the whole thing through, especially the ending. It sounds like "souls" is just a magical stop-gap that creates and solves plot problems. It probably doesn't help to think about it too much.

 

Adra is material that holds souls... that much I gathered.

[Nakia]

Each companion has several different endings according to the conversations you have with them, how you guide them.

 This is (hopefully) the first game of a series so ending it vaguely is normal.    Sort of a cliff hanger.

Also the subject matter is a complicated and controversial one.

 

Quote from the PoE Official Wiki on souls.

 

While mortals do not understand all of how souls "work", what is known is that sapient souls move through an endless cycle of waking life and purgatorial slumber among the gods. Most times this metaphysical rest lasts for several years, but it can also be very brief, with a soul reincarnating immediately. The process of reincarnation is not perfect however. Souls can experience "fracturing" over generations, transforming in myriad ways, and not always functioning properly. Certain cultures or individuals may place high values on various soul characteristics. Some of these characteristics include "strong" souls, souls with a "pure" lineage, "awakened souls (meaning souls that can recall past lives), "traveled" souls (souls that have drifted through various divine realms) or souls that coexist in a single body. However, the opposite is also true, resulting in negative discrimination and sometimes outright violence.

Wael is the god of knowledge both revealed and hidden.    Knowledge is the forbidden fruit. 

 

The gods themselves cannot be trusted.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Nakia

[White Phoenix]

Well, if I remember correctly Eothas foresaw Woedica's plans of making Hollowborn crisis in Dyrwood. Because Waidwen/Eothas invaded Dyrwood Magran has good occasion to kill two birds with one stone - she defeated Waidwen in act of Dyrwood defence, allowing Woedica to punish Eothas in the same time and start Legacy, blaming firstly Waidwen and Eothas, next animancy for it.

 

Same effect of ending is like plot hole -  you always end curse, even if souls are sent to Woedica as she wishes what is illogical to me. Unless reasons of curse are totally diffrent that game suggests.

 

Adra pillars bind realm of mortal with realm of gods called The Beyond/Afterlife (Hel). Watcher "exists" between those two demensions, that's why they are able to detect and see souls. The cycle works due to adra pillars (kind of axis mundi).

[Omnicron]

Well, if I remember correctly Eothas foresaw Woedica's plans of making Hollowborn crisis in Dyrwood. Because Waidwen/Eothas invaded Dyrwood Magran has good occasion to kill two birds with one stone - she defeated Waidwen in act of Dyrwood defence, allowing Woedica to punish Eothas in the same time and start Legacy, blaming firstly Waidwen and Eothas, next animancy for it.

 

Same effect of ending is like plot hole -  you always end curse, even if souls are sent to Woedica as she wishes what is illogical to me. Unless reasons of curse are totally diffrent that game suggests.

 

Adra pillars bind realm of mortal with realm of gods called The Beyond/Afterlife (Hel). Watcher "exists" between those two demensions, that's why they are able to detect and see souls. The cycle works due to adra pillars (kind of axis mundi).

 

Well, what is Magran's objective with all that. I mean I understood that those were the order of events (although not sure what you meant by "allowing Woedica to punish Eothas"). It does not make sense to me, since in your conversation with her she seems fine with the idea of the Gods being unmasked (as discussed in another thread) and she wants you to stop Woedica. So what was her motivation for ending Eothas? Because she seems to be against Woedica.

 

The idea of the Adra pillars connecting things in that way and that they house souls gives me the impression then that perhaps the machine at the end directly worked with the Adra and therefore caused the hollowborn somehow. Hence it is not so much about the souls being out of the cycle, but rather that the machine causes interference with the cycle through the adra. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Omnicron

[White Phoenix]

 

Well, if I remember correctly Eothas foresaw Woedica's plans of making Hollowborn crisis in Dyrwood. Because Waidwen/Eothas invaded Dyrwood Magran has good occasion to kill two birds with one stone - she defeated Waidwen in act of Dyrwood defence, allowing Woedica to punish Eothas in the same time and start Legacy, blaming firstly Waidwen and Eothas, next animancy for it.

 

Same effect of ending is like plot hole -  you always end curse, even if souls are sent to Woedica as she wishes what is illogical to me. Unless reasons of curse are totally diffrent that game suggests.

 

Adra pillars bind realm of mortal with realm of gods called The Beyond/Afterlife (Hel). Watcher "exists" between those two demensions, that's why they are able to detect and see souls. The cycle works due to adra pillars (kind of axis mundi).

 

Well, what is Magran's objective with all that. I mean I understood that those were the order of events (although not sure what you meant by "allowing Woedica to punish Eothas"). It does not make sense to me, since in your conversation with her she seems fine with the idea of the Gods being unmasked (as discussed in another thread) and she wants you to stop Woedica. So what was her motivation for ending Eothas? Because she seems to be against Woedica.

 

The idea of the Adra pillars connecting things in that way and that they house souls gives me the impression then that perhaps the machine at the end directly worked with the Adra and therefore caused the hollowborn somehow. Hence it is not so much about the souls being out of the cycle, but rather that the machine causes interference with the cycle through the adra. 

 

Woedica wanted revenge on Eothas for his discovery and intervention. Because she wanted to stay in shadow, she used Magran to do dirty job on Eothas. War broke out, giving Magran best opportunity to it. Additionally as Dyrwood patron she couldn't stand alone in the corner saying: "I'm sorry guys, life is brutal", when war was around. That's why she had to do something as goddess of war. I think that whatever she did, her actions served Woedica's purposes - to make her Hollowborn plan come true and remove Eothas as a barrier in it. I don't know why Magran really make alliance with Woedica to kill Waidwen. Maybe she was angry because he entered into not his domain? We know that Magran and Eothas were foes as gods (rivals?) for long time before Saint's War happened (Durance conversation). She couldn't missed such chance to eliminate her enemy.

 

Everything is very unclear yet and there are many puzzles in Eothas-Magran-Woedica stuff. Hope for expansion and sequel to learn  more.

 

All machines were built from adra or had elements of it. They were causing Hollowborn crisis in way of not allowing souls to reincarnate. Souls were out from the cycle, they were being sent to Woedica instead The Beyond.

Edited May 25, 2015 by White Phoenix

[Karkarov]

Adra is the stuff that forms the conduits that transport souls to the center of the earth where the "well of souls" exists and the cycle of rebirth takes place.  So that is why Adra is significant. 

 

The hollowborn stop because the adra machines in the various engwithan ruins were no longer being used to tear souls from the children.  The only reason they were doing it in the first place was to gather them at the central machine and feed them to Woedica, regardless of what you do at the end the people who were running this plot (leaden key) are taken out and or disposed of one way or the other.  As a result the people causing the "hollowborn" crisis and the machine driving it are out of the picture so obviously the crisis stops.

 

Magran is implied to have been in league with Woedica for the defeat of Waidwen.  AKA: Magran wanted to defend Dyrwood as she is all about war and overcoming trials which is a big thing to Dyrwoodans and their gung ho personal independence nonsense.  She was not aware of Woedica's endgame, or she was but thought she could turn it to her own ends.  Point is however you look at it her actions benefited Woedica in the short term and she DID betray her followers who made the bomb and used it.  She planned for all of them to die from it's use, Durance's survival was a total fluke.  Why do this?  Probably because she didn't want mortals to have the knowledge of how to make a weapon capable of doing real harm to a god.  You also need to understand regardless of whether or not she was really in "league" with Woedica the defeat of Waidwen served both Magran and Woedica in the short term and make both of them stronger.  That said if Waidwen really was trying to stop Woedica's plot (and it is heavily implied he was) his victory would have also done harm to Magran's faith by proxy.  Point is she had tons of totally selfish reasons for working with Woedica at the time.

[Omnicron]

Nice answer Karkarov !

 

They really should've give Eder something to say in all this. Finding out the true link between Waidwen and Eothas and that the Gods are not real in the way he expected should have made him consider a lot of things regarding his brother and his own choices and how he feels about them now. 

[eLPuSHeR]

Agreed. And a little offtopic, I have always considered Edér quest outcome one of the least satisfactory ones.

[teknoman2]

I am sorry if some of these questions have been answered elsewhere, have been reading the topics related tho these questions here and there. I am a fairly careful reader, but somehow some of the details seems to have passed me by. 

 

 

 

 

Loads of Endgame Spoilers obviously. 

 

 

 

 

I want to start by asking something I did not quite get when I spoke to Magran. I had Durance and Eder in my party, and I had the conversation with Durance about how Magran tried to kill him to cover her own tracks. I was like, wait, what? and I loaded and read the dialogue carefully again and I did not see anything in the conversation which implied that Magran was in a partnership with Woedica like Durance suggested. Why would she help Woedica by killing Waidwen?? I don't really understand that. I also do not understand why Eder had nothing to say on the matter, I mean the other Gods just implied that "even a God can be killed" which is one of Eder's central questions: Was Waidwen really Eothas? 

 

Now when finishing the game I have chosen a couple of options, and it does not matter what I do with the souls the Hollowborn stop. I have taken the souls out of the cycle ans given them to Woedica and I have used it to strengthen the Dyrwood and still the problem of the soul cycle is solved.  So this machine must have been taking the souls out of the children at conception or something somehow? I know Sun and Shadow was suppose to be a place where souls could be trapped somehow, but I still do not see how that is causing Hollowborn. It is not clear how the soul cycle works, but like I said, even feeding the souls to Woedica stops the hollowborn problem, so if they are out of the cycle then new life should not be deficient by lacking trapped souls, those souls simply do not seem to come into play. I also am unsure whether the machines in other places fed this one, but my understanding was those efforts had more to do with discrediting animancy.

 

Lastly, from the start of the game in the encampment you are given the idea that Adra is very mysterious but vital part of the world. That the veins go deep into the heart of the world. But I still am unsure of its significance. 

about Magran, i dont remember well the situation but i found the whole thing to make sense at the time. 

 

the soul enters the body at birth. the various machines you find around are pulling the souls that are headed for the newborn away and trap them in sun in shadow that acts like a central server. so when you release the souls in whatever manner, you also stop the machine from siphoning new souls through the proxy pillars and thus you end the hollowborn curse. no matter what you do with the souls in the end there are always enough in reserve and it is stated clearly that a soul can be split in 2 and allow 2 separate people to be born. also, who's to say a soul cannot be created just as it can be disintegrated... they seem to be made of extra dimentional particles after all.

 

as for adra, it acts as a sort of network that transfers souls from and to any place in the world and also stores them for indefinite periods of time. it is practically the physical manifestation of the wheel of reincarnation and also the residence of the gods (since each god is a mass union of ancient Engwithan souls)

[majestic]

I don't think Magran's true reason to destroy Waidwen/Eothas is all that complicated. Selfish yes, but not really complicated - it's probably because she's a prissy bitch just like Durance always says. By bringing conflict, strife and war to the mortal realm, Eothas intruded on Magran's domain and that's good enough a reason as any to get to killing and blowing stuff up by secretly working with the pariah of the gods.

 

The real MYSTARY I'd say is the question what the hell drove Eothas to interfere like that disregarding all the rules and drawing the ire of the other gods by doing something silly like that? When you talk to them the other gods all make it plenty clear that they do not want to see Woedica empowered and ruling again, and with Thaos having been Woedica's reach for thousands of years, which they quite clearly know about, why would they not believe Eothas when he says he found this nice little annoying plot to reinstate Woedica?

[tinysalamander]

(random idea here) Maybe he was trapped in mortal's body instead of willingly going into one?

[xmojo1]

As I understand it, Magran attempted to kill the 12 people who created the Godhammer (with her imput) to disguise her part in the killing of Eothas; it appears that only those twelve knew of Magran's involvement and she wanted to keep it a secret. Eder ponders aloud that perhaps Eothas knew of Woedica's grand plan and that Eothas perhaps was marching to the Dyrwood to put an end to the scheme; Woedica then recruited Magran to stop Eothas, which she did.

 

The final adra machine acted as the central repository of all the souls extracted from the other machines spread across the land, but it too could also extract souls (witness the empty shells of the followers in Braith Eaman). Obviously the machines had a limited range in extracting souls, hence the need to have more than one placed around the land feeding the central machine.

[Nakia]

My current character does not trust the gods.  Is a skeptic and takes all with a grain of salt.  I am looking forward to how the games turn out.  It isn't that he does not believe they exist but he sees flaws and contradictions.  He believes in himself after all he is a godlike himself although a good looking one still it sets him a part right from the start.

[Tigranes]

Karkarov basically has it right. The adra / machines / etc stuff all fit in pretty well - and the whole conspiratorial uncertainty of whether Waidwen really is Eothas and how much the other gods like Magran knew when they did(n't) interfere, is a highlight in the plot. 

 

Durance is written in a needlessly confusing manner, though. 

[Karkarov]

Karkarov basically has it right. The adra / machines / etc stuff all fit in pretty well - and the whole conspiratorial uncertainty of whether Waidwen really is Eothas and how much the other gods like Magran knew when they did(n't) interfere, is a highlight in the plot. 

 

Durance is written in a needlessly confusing manner, though. 

Really when it all comes down to it the question of "Was Magran working with Woedica in any form?" is meaningless because Magran would have opposed Waidwen anyway.  Dyrwood is one of the (if not the biggest) places she is heavily worshiped and where one of her primary temples is located.  Like I said before Dyrwoodans are infatuated with the idea of personal independence, struggle, and self reliance.  Things Magran is all about.  She is basically the chief deity of the country, hell her primary temple is literally in the same building as the seat of government power in the Dyrwood.  Not a coincidence. 

 

Waidwen turned Readceras into a religious state and threw out every faith other than Eothas.  No reason to believe he wouldn't have done the same if he had won in Dyrwood.  Magran wasn't going to sit idle for that.

[Omnicron]

Really when it all comes down to it the question of "Was Magran working with Woedica in any form?" is meaningless because Magran would have opposed Waidwen anyway.  Dyrwood is one of the (if not the biggest) places she is heavily worshiped and where one of her primary temples is located.  Like I said before Dyrwoodans are infatuated with the idea of personal independence, struggle, and self reliance.  Things Magran is all about.  She is basically the chief deity of the country, hell her primary temple is literally in the same building as the seat of government power in the Dyrwood.  Not a coincidence. 

 

Waidwen turned Readceras into a religious state and threw out every faith other than Eothas.  No reason to believe he wouldn't have done the same if he had won in Dyrwood.  Magran wasn't going to sit idle for that.

 

 

I guess you are correct. I also recall the gods saying at the end that there are some limits, some kind of code, which dictates how much they can interfere which is why they send you after Thaos. So maybe Eothas did not respect that code in his invasion and Magran did not approve of his invasion coupled with rivalry with him, and boom. 

Edited May 28, 2015 by Omnicron

[Gorbag]

 

Really when it all comes down to it the question of "Was Magran working with Woedica in any form?" is meaningless because Magran would have opposed Waidwen anyway.  Dyrwood is one of the (if not the biggest) places she is heavily worshiped and where one of her primary temples is located.  Like I said before Dyrwoodans are infatuated with the idea of personal independence, struggle, and self reliance.  Things Magran is all about.  She is basically the chief deity of the country, hell her primary temple is literally in the same building as the seat of government power in the Dyrwood.  Not a coincidence. 

 

Waidwen turned Readceras into a religious state and threw out every faith other than Eothas.  No reason to believe he wouldn't have done the same if he had won in Dyrwood.  Magran wasn't going to sit idle for that.

 

 

I guess you are correct. I also recall the gods saying at the end that there are some limits, some kind of code, which dictates how much they can interfere which is why they send you after Thaos. So maybe Eothas did not respect that code in his invasion and Magran did not approve of his invasion coupled with rivalry with him, and boom. 

 

Which would make Eothas kind of stupid. Trying to stop Woedica by breaking the code in such ineffective but absurdly overt way means that either Eothas was stupid/desperate, or that Waidwen wasn't Eothas and Eothas was framed (while Magran was used).

I'm sticking to the idea that Waidwen wasn't Eothas, which raises the questions "Who was Waidwen?" and "Where is Eothas in all this?". Whoever Waidwen was (if not Eothas himself), he must have known that Eothas wouldn't react, but Magran will.