Trans Pacific Partnership

[Meshugger]

Oh? What false narrative are you talking about here? Are you not doing that just now by trying shift focus from the document to him personally?

[BruceVC]

Oh? What false narrative are you talking about here? Are you not doing that just now by trying shift focus from the document to him personally?

So what you need to realize is that people like Assange have an axe to grind with the USA, sometimes this type of animosity is justified but mostly its not. But the reality is the USA is the foundation of Western ideology. Its not perfect but it maintains a very important framework for the rest of the Western world. We need to question very carefully any person  who has an issue with the USA in this type of context. Because most of the time this is not a good thing as this type of attack on the USA is really an attack on all of  us who believe in Western ideology. We actually stand by the USA and fall by the USA, you just don't realize it. Imagine a world without the USA?

 

For starters the EU would be at the mercy of Russian hegemony and Putin would be happily carving up parts of eastern Europe to rebuild his Russian empire  and you can forget about the Chinese respecting any islands in the Pacific and they probably would have annexed Taiwan ages ago. Islamic fundamentalism would be much more rampant and destructive and the Middle East awash with civil wars. Africa would even more backward. So basically you would be forced to agree to anything that Russia or the Chinese wanted ...and I don't know about you but both those countries seem much worse overall than the USA

 

Assange with help from Bradly Manning decided  to selectively publish CONFIDENTIAL diplomatic cables about the USA, he was warned..he was cautioned. Who did he think he was to continue to be judge and jury of what the world needed to see about the USA, his hubris was astounding . He avoided the USA " playing nice " by DDOS attacks on his servers thinking he could hide in the Internet and continue to attack the national security of the USA but then he messed up and needed to face a legal challenge in Sweden...does Assange go to Sweden to face these charges? No of course not, the great moral compass of Assange doesn't apply to himself .. " he is Julian Assange...he is someone who is above the law" 

 

So you would assume he would then follow the legal process and fight extradition in the UK ...but once again " No..he is Julian Assange, he will never get a fair hearing !!!" So he skips bail and uses the annoying anti-Western views of Ecuador to get shelter...thinking he has cleverly avoided arrest. But this backfired horribly for him and now he cant leave...imagine being stuck in a building for years ...yes this punishment suits me as he is too much of a coward to face the minor charges of skipping bail or proving his innocence in Sweden.

 

And please don't suggest that Sweden is unable to prosecute him legally and correctly...he just is in complete contempt for any legal system

 

So this is the man you admire?

[Meshugger]

 

Oh? What false narrative are you talking about here? Are you not doing that just now by trying shift focus from the document to him personally?

So what you need to realize is that people like Assange have an axe to grind with the USA, sometimes this type of animosity is justified but mostly its not. But the reality is the USA is the foundation of Western ideology. Its not perfect but it maintains a very important framework for the rest of the Western world. We need to question very carefully any person  who has an issue with the USA in this type of context. Because most of the time this is not a good thing as this type of attack on the USA is really an attack on all of  us who believe in Western ideology. We actually stand by the USA and fall by the USA, you just don't realize it. Imagine a world without the USA?

 

For starters the EU would be at the mercy of Russian hegemony and Putin would be happily carving up parts of eastern Europe to rebuild his Russian empire  and you can forget about the Chinese respecting any islands in the Pacific and they probably would have annexed Taiwan ages ago. Islamic fundamentalism would be much more rampant and destructive and the Middle East awash with civil wars. Africa would even more backward. So basically you would be forced to agree to anything that Russia or the Chinese wanted ...and I don't know about you but both those countries seem much worse overall than the USA

 

Assange with help from Bradly Manning decided  to selectively publish CONFIDENTIAL diplomatic cables about the USA, he was warned..he was cautioned. Who did he think he was to continue to be judge and jury of what the world needed to see about the USA, his hubris was astounding . He avoided the USA " playing nice " by DDOS attacks on his servers thinking he could hide in the Internet and continue to attack the national security of the USA but then he messed up and needed to face a legal challenge in Sweden...does Assange go to Sweden to face these charges? No of course not, the great moral compass of Assange doesn't apply to himself .. " he is Julian Assange...he is someone who is above the law" 

 

So you would assume he would then follow the legal process and fight extradition in the UK ...but once again " No..he is Julian Assange, he will never get a fair hearing !!!" So he skips bail and uses the annoying anti-Western views of Ecuador to get shelter...thinking he has cleverly avoided arrest. But this backfired horribly for him and now he cant leave...imagine being stuck in a building for years ...yes this punishment suits me as he is too much of a coward to face the minor charges of skipping bail or proving his innocence in Sweden.

 

And please don't suggest that Sweden is unable to prosecute him legally and correctly...he just is in complete contempt for any legal system

 

So this is the man you admire?

 

 

I asked you what of his narrative of which you can demostrate to be false. "He hates the west and the USA-hurrdurr" ain't gonna cut it, bro.

 

Or perhaps we can take a look at some of the very documents themselves instead? https://wikileaks.org/tpp/healthcare/WikiLeaks-TPP-Transparency-Healthcare-Annex.pdf

[213374U]

But the reality is the USA is the foundation of Western ideology.

 

I stopped reading here. My original response was going to be "does it hurt to be so ignorant?", but then I realized that this is, in fact, perfectly consistent with what you've been saying all along, and it is also factually accurate. You had me going for a second there!

 

I'll explain: by "Western ideology" you don't mean separation of powers, rule of law and popular sovereignty, because you have never explicitly alluded to this. No, by "Western ideology" you actually mean corporate plutocracy, consequentialism and authoritarian militarism. Viewed from this perspective, everything you have been saying is much more coherent and actually supported by facts. This is proof of what many have suspected all along: that you are a very successful troll, quite possibly someone else's alt, and at any rate, well acquainted with Poe's law.

 

Bravo, good sir. Bravo. /golfclap

[Bartimaeus]

Well, technically, I suppose it is all, in a sense, Western ideology...now, if the world could just start upholding the specific brand of Western ideology that *I* prefer...   Assange's "Western ideology" seems closer to what I think is right than our lovely governments', so I guess I should be supporting him, as Bruce seems to like to support the U.S. for the same reason...I've never been *that* big of a fan of Assange, but you've managed to convince me this time, Bruce!

Edited June 13, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Monte Carlo]

I'm open-minded about this legislation, and can see why people are sceptical. I'm sceptical.

 

However, I think Assange is an asshat. And Snowden.

 

Wow, I've got a multi-faceted view on something. Have to go and lie down.

[Orogun01]

God is real and he's a CEO.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

ronpaulitshappening.jpg

 

Such things are most likely requiring a change in respective countries constitutions, right? Which in some cases subsequently requires national referendums, right? Things like these should never pass into fruition.

 

Lol. Silly Rabbit, constitutions are for serfs. Rule of law doesn't exist anywhere anymore. It will be ratified as treaty and any laws which pre-empt it shall be ignored for the purposes of Our Masters--or Betters, if you prefer.

 

I look forward to sharing a cell with you when we go to be reeducated. We can enjoy some schadenfreude and sardonic laughs.

[BruceVC]

Well, technically, I suppose it is all, in a sense, Western ideology...now, if the world could just start upholding the specific brand of Western ideology that *I* prefer...   Assange's "Western ideology" seems closer to what I think is right than our lovely governments', so I guess I should be supporting him, as Bruce seems to like to support the U.S. for the same reason...I've never been *that* big of a fan of Assange, but you've managed to convince me this time, Bruce!

Barti my darling I'm extremely disappointed that you think a good system of government  is one where an outsider can undermine the national security of a government by posting confidential documents on the Internet? That is Assange's view of acceptable conduct. No government in the world would accept this, so I will give you time to reflect on this and then make another post ...you may want to rethink your opinion of Assange ?

 

 

But the reality is the USA is the foundation of Western ideology.

 

I stopped reading here. My original response was going to be "does it hurt to be so ignorant?", but then I realized that this is, in fact, perfectly consistent with what you've been saying all along, and it is also factually accurate. You had me going for a second there!

 

I'll explain: by "Western ideology" you don't mean separation of powers, rule of law and popular sovereignty, because you have never explicitly alluded to this. No, by "Western ideology" you actually mean corporate plutocracy, consequentialism and authoritarian militarism. Viewed from this perspective, everything you have been saying is much more coherent and actually supported by facts. This is proof of what many have suspected all along: that you are a very successful troll, quite possibly someone else's alt, and at any rate, well acquainted with Poe's law.

 

Bravo, good sir. Bravo. /golfclap

 

 

But the reality is the USA is the foundation of Western ideology.

 

I stopped reading here. My original response was going to be "does it hurt to be so ignorant?", but then I realized that this is, in fact, perfectly consistent with what you've been saying all along, and it is also factually accurate. You had me going for a second there!

 

I'll explain: by "Western ideology" you don't mean separation of powers, rule of law and popular sovereignty, because you have never explicitly alluded to this. No, by "Western ideology" you actually mean corporate plutocracy, consequentialism and authoritarian militarism. Viewed from this perspective, everything you have been saying is much more coherent and actually supported by facts. This is proof of what many have suspected all along: that you are a very successful troll, quite possibly someone else's alt, and at any rate, well acquainted with Poe's law.

 

Bravo, good sir. Bravo. /golfclap

 

.

As I keep telling Zora and others I am no Troll, everything I say I can substantiate and support with valid examples. I suppose I need to be clear on what I mean by "Western ideology " 

 

I support the West and this is not just the USA, this applies to the EU and Australia and other similar countries that are Democracies and similar corporate cultures. Now you may ask " but why do you support the West". Its simple really, the West gives there citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens...this is an irrefutable fact and why anyone would dispute this boggles the mind. I live in a continent where  most countries don't follow Western ideology and these countries have many  citizens that overall live in poverty or have governments that don't follow good governance and this reflects on the state of there economies

 

Yes I know Western ideology isn't perfect, you live in country that is currently undergoing austerity but you cannot blame the West for that. This is a fault of the actual Spanish government and there spending history  and overall questionable  economic  polices. What would be your perfect system of government for Spain if you could decide? Should Spain leave the EU ?

 

So Western ideology is about Democratic governments, free speech, free press and functional and accountable government institutions. And its also about corporate culture where the growth of the economy is driven by the private sector but the government can intervene to prevent certain industrial sectors from collapsing, like we saw in 2008/2009 in the USA and UK  bailouts 

 

There is no such thing as a true Capitalist system of government, so I believe in  a hybrid  socialist\capitalist model   like we see that is functioning in the USA at the moment 

Edited June 14, 2015 by BruceVC

[Orogun01]

As I keep telling Zora and others I am no Troll, everything I say I can substantiate and support with valid examples. I suppose I need to be clear on what I mean by "Western ideology " 

 

I support the West and this is not just the USA, this applies to the EU and Australia and other similar countries that are Democracies and similar corporate cultures. Now you may ask " but why do you support the West". Its simple really, the West gives there citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens...this is an irrefutable fact and why anyone would dispute this boggles the mind. I live in a continent where  most countries don't follow Western ideology and these countries have many  citizens that overall live in poverty or have governments that don't follow good governance and this reflects on the state of there economies

 

Yes I know Western ideology isn't perfect, you live in country that is currently undergoing austerity but you cannot blame the West for that. This is a fault of the actual Spanish government and there spending history  and overall questionable  economic  polices. What would be your perfect system of government for Spain if you could decide? Should Spain leave the EU ?

 

So Western ideology is about Democratic governments, free speech, free press and functional and accountable government institutions. And its also about corporate culture where the growth of the economy is driven by the private sector but the government can intervene to prevent certain industrial sectors from collapsing, like we saw in 2008/2009 in the USA and UK  bailouts 

 

There is no such thing as a true Capitalist system of government, so I believe in  a hybrid  socialist\capitalist model   like we see that is functioning in the USA at the moment

But the west is tool for corporations that are behind all of the world's current problems. Edited June 14, 2015 by Orogun01

[BruceVC]

 

As I keep telling Zora and others I am no Troll, everything I say I can substantiate and support with valid examples. I suppose I need to be clear on what I mean by "Western ideology " 

 

I support the West and this is not just the USA, this applies to the EU and Australia and other similar countries that are Democracies and similar corporate cultures. Now you may ask " but why do you support the West". Its simple really, the West gives there citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens...this is an irrefutable fact and why anyone would dispute this boggles the mind. I live in a continent where  most countries don't follow Western ideology and these countries have many  citizens that overall live in poverty or have governments that don't follow good governance and this reflects on the state of there economies

 

Yes I know Western ideology isn't perfect, you live in country that is currently undergoing austerity but you cannot blame the West for that. This is a fault of the actual Spanish government and there spending history  and overall questionable  economic  polices. What would be your perfect system of government for Spain if you could decide? Should Spain leave the EU ?

 

So Western ideology is about Democratic governments, free speech, free press and functional and accountable government institutions. And its also about corporate culture where the growth of the economy is driven by the private sector but the government can intervene to prevent certain industrial sectors from collapsing, like we saw in 2008/2009 in the USA and UK  bailouts 

 

There is no such thing as a true Capitalist system of government, so I believe in  a hybrid  socialist\capitalist model   like we see that is functioning in the USA at the moment

But the west is tool for corporations that are behind all of the world's current problems.

 

 

I won't deny that global corporations have at times acted unethically and have in fact negatively impacted the economic growth of some countries, I'm sure we have all read the book " Confessions of an Economic Hitman" but that is in the past. That view is very 1980's and how global corporations use to  conduct themselves. Nowadays there is much more social responsibility and I firmly believe that corporations do more good than bad overall  

[Bartimaeus]

 

Well, technically, I suppose it is all, in a sense, Western ideology...now, if the world could just start upholding the specific brand of Western ideology that *I* prefer...   Assange's "Western ideology" seems closer to what I think is right than our lovely governments', so I guess I should be supporting him, as Bruce seems to like to support the U.S. for the same reason...I've never been *that* big of a fan of Assange, but you've managed to convince me this time, Bruce!

Barti my darling I'm extremely disappointed that you think a good system of government  is one where an outsider can undermine the national security of a government by posting confidential documents on the Internet? That is Assange's view of acceptable conduct. No government in the world would accept this, so I will give you time to reflect on this and then make another post ...you may want to rethink your opinion of Assange ?

 

 

Re-think my opinion of Assange? I already said I wasn't a big fan of his...merely that, given the circumstances, his Western ideology is more agreeable with than our current Western governments'. Are you, again, suggesting that I should actually have a higher opinion of him?

Edited June 14, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Orogun01]

 

 

As I keep telling Zora and others I am no Troll, everything I say I can substantiate and support with valid examples. I suppose I need to be clear on what I mean by "Western ideology " 

 

I support the West and this is not just the USA, this applies to the EU and Australia and other similar countries that are Democracies and similar corporate cultures. Now you may ask " but why do you support the West". Its simple really, the West gives there citizens the best quality of life and has the happiest citizens...this is an irrefutable fact and why anyone would dispute this boggles the mind. I live in a continent where  most countries don't follow Western ideology and these countries have many  citizens that overall live in poverty or have governments that don't follow good governance and this reflects on the state of there economies

 

Yes I know Western ideology isn't perfect, you live in country that is currently undergoing austerity but you cannot blame the West for that. This is a fault of the actual Spanish government and there spending history  and overall questionable  economic  polices. What would be your perfect system of government for Spain if you could decide? Should Spain leave the EU ?

 

So Western ideology is about Democratic governments, free speech, free press and functional and accountable government institutions. And its also about corporate culture where the growth of the economy is driven by the private sector but the government can intervene to prevent certain industrial sectors from collapsing, like we saw in 2008/2009 in the USA and UK  bailouts 

 

There is no such thing as a true Capitalist system of government, so I believe in  a hybrid  socialist\capitalist model   like we see that is functioning in the USA at the moment

But the west is tool for corporations that are behind all of the world's current problems.

 

 

I won't deny that global corporations have at times acted unethically and have in fact negatively impacted the economic growth of some countries, I'm sure we have all read the book " Confessions of an Economic Hitman" but that is in the past. That view is very 1980's and how global corporations use to  conduct themselves. Nowadays there is much more social responsibility and I firmly believe that corporations do more good than bad overall

 

That's like saying a tapeworm that has fused with your intestine is beneficial because it can't be removed.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well, technically, I suppose it is all, in a sense, Western ideology...now, if the world could just start upholding the specific brand of Western ideology that *I* prefer...   Assange's "Western ideology" seems closer to what I think is right than our lovely governments', so I guess I should be supporting him, as Bruce seems to like to support the U.S. for the same reason...I've never been *that* big of a fan of Assange, but you've managed to convince me this time, Bruce!

Barti my darling I'm extremely disappointed that you think a good system of government  is one where an outsider can undermine the national security of a government by posting confidential documents on the Internet? That is Assange's view of acceptable conduct. No government in the world would accept this, so I will give you time to reflect on this and then make another post ...you may want to rethink your opinion of Assange ?

 

 

Re-think my opinion of Assange? I already said I wasn't a big fan of his...merely that, given the circumstances, his Western ideology is more agreeable with than our current Western governments'. Are you, again, suggesting that I should actually have a higher opinion of him?

 

 

But thats the thing, the circumstances of Assange's actions are unequivocal. He posted confidential documents of the USA and other countries on the Internet. So either you support his illegal and damaging decisions or you don't? I'm not sure why anyone would support this but I can't read minds so I am interested in any justification for Assange's choices...and please consider the words "confidential " and "top secret " 

 

 

 

I won't deny that global corporations have at times acted unethically and have in fact negatively impacted the economic growth of some countries, I'm sure we have all read the book " Confessions of an Economic Hitman" but that is in the past. That view is very 1980's and how global corporations use to  conduct themselves. Nowadays there is much more social responsibility and I firmly believe that corporations do more good than bad overall

 

That's like saying a tapeworm that has fused with your intestine is beneficial because it can't be removed.

 

 

Comparing large global corporations to a tapeworm is an analogy that I just cant accept..its unfair and unrealistic

 

Lets take Microsoft for example, but this applies to all global companies. They invest in a country by hiring local staff, training people, providing services and paying tax. They also contribute towards social responsibility projects like helping to build schools and educate local people. This is a good system and is highly beneficial to the country invested in. I'm not sure what else you expect?

 

A tapeworm does nothing good except for maybe keeping your weight down as it consumes the food you eat ?

[Bartimaeus]

 

 

 

Well, technically, I suppose it is all, in a sense, Western ideology...now, if the world could just start upholding the specific brand of Western ideology that *I* prefer...   Assange's "Western ideology" seems closer to what I think is right than our lovely governments', so I guess I should be supporting him, as Bruce seems to like to support the U.S. for the same reason...I've never been *that* big of a fan of Assange, but you've managed to convince me this time, Bruce!

Barti my darling I'm extremely disappointed that you think a good system of government  is one where an outsider can undermine the national security of a government by posting confidential documents on the Internet? That is Assange's view of acceptable conduct. No government in the world would accept this, so I will give you time to reflect on this and then make another post ...you may want to rethink your opinion of Assange ?

 

 

Re-think my opinion of Assange? I already said I wasn't a big fan of his...merely that, given the circumstances, his Western ideology is more agreeable with than our current Western governments'. Are you, again, suggesting that I should actually have a higher opinion of him?

 

 

But thats the thing, the circumstances of Assange's actions are unequivocal. He posted confidential documents of the USA and other countries on the Internet. So either you support his illegal and damaging decisions or you don't? I'm not sure why anyone would support this but I can't read minds so I am interested in any justification for Assange's choices...and please consider the words "confidential " and "top secret " 

 

At this particular moment, retribution feels like a pretty good reason: our governments have collected and stolen massive wades of information I have not heard any reason I consider to be valid for them taking...and so Assange (and Snowden) have done the same to them. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind...and if everyone's blind, I have little fear of what I consider to be my rights (in this regard) being trampled upon.

 

This answer is only half-serious...but it has some truth in it. Like I have said, I am not the biggest fan of Assange...however, I currently find him more palatable than our governments, and so I am not willing to demonize him upon this basis.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Meshugger]

It's like some people haven't read any history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

[BruceVC]

It's like some people haven't read any history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

And the extended military campaign 40 years ago during the Vietnam war is relevant to Assange how?

[Meshugger]

 

It's like some people haven't read any history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

And the extended military campaign 40 years ago during the Vietnam war is relevant to Assange how?

 

 

Sorry, i had the illusion that you were arguing out of principles instead of the whim of the moment. The fact that you're incapable to tell the parallels between the cases is quite telling. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

It's like some people haven't read any history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

And the extended military campaign 40 years ago during the Vietnam war is relevant to Assange how?

 

 

Sorry, i had the illusion that you were arguing out of principles instead of the whim of the moment. The fact that you're incapable to tell the parallels between the cases is quite telling. 

 

The only spurious parallel I can think of  is that the USA government lied about some of its military actions during Vietnam...and once  again I fail to see  how this relates to Assange posting confidential documents. Unless you feel Assange is the right person to bring the " truth " to the world ?

 

And yes my argument is absolutely based on the principle 

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

It's like some people haven't read any history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

And the extended military campaign 40 years ago during the Vietnam war is relevant to Assange how?

 

 

Sorry, i had the illusion that you were arguing out of principles instead of the whim of the moment. The fact that you're incapable to tell the parallels between the cases is quite telling. 

 

The only spurious parallel I can think of  is that the USA government lied about some of its military actions during Vietnam...and once  again I fail to see  how this relates to Assange posting confidential documents. Unless you feel Assange is the right person to bring the " truth " to the world ?

 

And yes my argument is absolutely based on the principle 

 

 

No, you deliberately derailing leaks about TPP to the guy presenting the leaked documents as someone that should tried to high treason. But when presented with evidence that Ellsberg just did everything that you accuse Assange of with the Pentagon Papers you revert back to playing dumb.

[s13ep]

I don't like Assange because he endangered the nations and allies security, especially because it's in a time of war.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

It's like some people haven't read any history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

And the extended military campaign 40 years ago during the Vietnam war is relevant to Assange how?

 

 

Sorry, i had the illusion that you were arguing out of principles instead of the whim of the moment. The fact that you're incapable to tell the parallels between the cases is quite telling. 

 

The only spurious parallel I can think of  is that the USA government lied about some of its military actions during Vietnam...and once  again I fail to see  how this relates to Assange posting confidential documents. Unless you feel Assange is the right person to bring the " truth " to the world ?

 

And yes my argument is absolutely based on the principle 

 

 

No, you deliberately derailing leaks about TPP to the guy presenting the leaked documents as someone that should tried to high treason. But when presented with evidence that Ellsberg just did everything that you accuse Assange of with the Pentagon Papers you revert back to playing dumb.

 

 

The circumstances were different, Ellsberg was charged with espionage and then the charges were dropped  due to Nixon engaging in unlawful efforts to discredit him

 

Assange is not a US citizen and right now doesn't face any charges in the USA. This may change and hopefully should 

 

So the two examples once again are not the same. And your Ellsberg example still doesn't vindicate a person posting confidential government  documents on the Internet, I don't why this is so hard for you to understand?

[Blarghagh]

Unless you feel Assange is the right person to bring the " truth " to the world?

 

You're right, that's the government's job.

 

Oh wait.

[Gorgon]

You don't have to like Assange. Matter of fact he's completely imaterial to the need of a way to disseminate information anonimously. 

 

You can't trust the news organisations they can and do make concessions when threatened by governments. As for the release of information being dangerous in itself. That is a possible outcome, but the benifits outweigh the costs on the whole. 

[s13ep]

You don't have to like Assange. Matter of fact he's completely imaterial to the need of a way to disseminate information anonimously. 

 

You can't trust the news organisations they can and do make concessions when threatened by governments. As for the release of information being dangerous in itself. That is a possible outcome, but the benifits outweigh the costs on the whole. 

For the world it's beneficent, but not for the population who it's centered around. He took a risk that could have started worldwide social chaos. It wasn't at the best time, that's what annoyed me. But... Perhaps you are right, and his actions, in making us brighter and more aware of conditions, we would tie loose ends.

 

I still stick by my opinion in light of protecting my country and population from espionage and mass-hate. 

Edited June 14, 2015 by s13ep