Are Ciphers garbage after 1.05?

[FlintlockJazz]

 

 

Best game master tips ever:  Get your players involved, make their character feel special and they'll love you for it.

 

That sounds like Bioware's ego stroking, and I despise that.  Most of the guys I play tabletop with don't need it either, so I guess the tip should really be "Be aware of the type of player you have".

[mazeltov]

Well, that begs the question: What is the purpose of the so-called balancing if the game was good enough at release?

 

A few likely reasons. First, as a personal point of pride. Balance Man took it upon himself to build a system from scratch because, among other reasons, he thought that "most other games get it wrong," with a title like BG2 set aside for criticism because of its over-the-top elements (much of which is just vintage 2e, to be fair). He also thinks mages (AKA casters) in D&D are too flexible and powerful and wanted to bring them closer to other classes in power level for PoE, a goal reminiscent of what was attempted in 4e. Well, most of these goals are not where they should be. Each patch is inching toward it, but it's not there yet.

 

Another reason is that PoE is a work in progress. Assuming all the planned content gets developed, we've only seen a small portion of the overall work. With a larger pool of testers compared to the backer beta and all content now at those testers' disposal, the feedback for JSaw to use in rebalancing the game and putting it on a stronger footing for future content is better.

 

 

Still, people play games because they are fun not because they are balanced.

 

Balance Man made a comment during development to the effect that "a fun game would be even more fun if it had a better system," implying that to him at least, coherence and balance within game systems leads to more fun, possibly by way of increased challenge or a larger variety of "viable" build options. You're free to disagree with that approach. I'm interested to see where the dev team goes with it.

[MadDemiurg]

If Balance Man thought that casters are too flexible he should've given martial classes more abilities like 4e did. Over 9000 spells casters and point and click fighters are 2e/3e design and it will never make a balanced system...

Edited May 12, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[mazeltov]

Over 9000 spells casters and point and click fighters are 2e/3e design and it will never make a balanced system...

 

Obviously. I doubt the full extent of that became clear until some time after release. Casters of all stripes still have a lot more nerf bat in store, as much as it pains certain forumites to hear that. Exactly how much of the problem will be solved by buffs on the non-caster side is still an open question.

[MadDemiurg]

 

Over 9000 spells casters and point and click fighters are 2e/3e design and it will never make a balanced system...

 

Obviously. I doubt the full extent of that became clear until some time after release. Casters of all stripes still have a lot more nerf bat in store, as much as it pains certain forumites to hear that. Exactly how much of the problem will be solved by buffs on the non-caster side is still an open question.

 

I don't think buffing non casters and nerfing casters is a solution either. This design is bound to make someone unhappy by default.

 

If a caster that studies a few dozens of spells and combines them in different ways adapting to specific encounter turns out to be as effective played at max skill level as a fighter that just point and clicks this is even a bigger bull****. I would then personally 1) pick only point and click classes because why bother 2) get bored very fast because surprisingly point and click is not fun.

 

With this design, casters being inherently more powerful is the only way for the game to be fun tbh. Martial classes can be seen as low micro options that give reasonable (but not top) performance. I also think doing smth with the rest system would go a long way in evening this out, giving non casters a bigger role in clearing small encounters.

 

That's putting aside that per rest vs passives and several dozens spells vs a couple of per encounter abilities are almost impossible to balance in the first place.

 

For this to be a  perfectly balanced system where all classes are equal martial classes would need a complete overhaul.

Edited May 12, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[knownastherat]

 

Well, that begs the question: What is the purpose of the so-called balancing if the game was good enough at release?

 

A few likely reasons. First, as a personal point of pride. Balance Man took it upon himself to build a system from scratch because, among other reasons, he thought that "most other games get it wrong," with a title like BG2 set aside for criticism because of its over-the-top elements (much of which is just vintage 2e, to be fair). He also thinks mages (AKA casters) in D&D are too flexible and powerful and wanted to bring them closer to other classes in power level for PoE, a goal reminiscent of what was attempted in 4e. Well, most of these goals are not where they should be. Each patch is inching toward it, but it's not there yet.

 

Another reason is that PoE is a work in progress. Assuming all the planned content gets developed, we've only seen a small portion of the overall work. With a larger pool of testers compared to the backer beta and all content now at those testers' disposal, the feedback for JSaw to use in rebalancing the game and putting it on a stronger footing for future content is better.

 

 

Still, people play games because they are fun not because they are balanced.

 

Balance Man made a comment during development to the effect that "a fun game would be even more fun if it had a better system," implying that to him at least, coherence and balance within game systems leads to more fun, possibly by way of increased challenge or a larger variety of "viable" build options. You're free to disagree with that approach. I'm interested to see where the dev team goes with it.

 

 

Fair enough. I guess I picked up some animosity from comments about alleged "cheese" which I took personally and cant let go now

 

What I liked about BG, regardless of imbalances, was that I had this thick printed manual I studied thoroughly and there I could learn everything about the game especially about game mechanics. And it worked as described, according to the rules. I never pondered "why something works like that?" nor was having thoughts "It should not work like that!" as I took the game as it was given to me and was content with it.

Edited May 12, 2015 by knownastherat

[abaris]

If Balance Man thought that casters are too flexible he should've given martial classes more abilities like 4e did. Over 9000 spells casters and point and click fighters are 2e/3e design and it will never make a balanced system...

 

To be fair, melee classes are underwhelming as player characters in almost every game. They're vital to the party, but they're not offering much fun and variety to experiment with.

[Psychevore]

 

If Balance Man thought that casters are too flexible he should've given martial classes more abilities like 4e did. Over 9000 spells casters and point and click fighters are 2e/3e design and it will never make a balanced system...

 

To be fair, melee classes are underwhelming as player characters in almost every game. They're vital to the party, but they're not offering much fun and variety to experiment with.

 

Templar in DA:I is hella fun to play.

[MadDemiurg]

 

If Balance Man thought that casters are too flexible he should've given martial classes more abilities like 4e did. Over 9000 spells casters and point and click fighters are 2e/3e design and it will never make a balanced system...

 

To be fair, melee classes are underwhelming as player characters in almost every game. They're vital to the party, but they're not offering much fun and variety to experiment with.

 

If you know how 4e works, all classes are quite fun there. Heck, in Diablo melee classes were pretty fun.

[FranklinsTower]

So what is the best weapon focus talent to to take for Cipher now? Warbow? Arba/Arqu?

[Raven Darkholme]

Arba/Arq

[MadDemiurg]

For burst generation - arbbalest/arquebus. Pair this with quickswitch.

 

For steady generation - warbow. Warbow has more overall dps and will win out in the long run.

 

As for melee - as usual pikes for reach (same group as arbalest/arquebus), estocs and dual sabers.

 

Tbh as of 1.05 dual sabers are very strong. Now that focus generation is fully tied directly to dps and not hit frequency all weapons that do 24+ damage per hit got better, and sabers were the best dps weapon already. With dual superb sabers 50 dmg hits and 80 dmg crits are the norm at high level, resulting in 16+ focus per hit. Full blunderbuss shot in 1.04 got you maybe like 30-35 focus, which you easily get with like 2 saber hits (and you can land like 10 of them while you reload a blunderbuss). Blunderbuss is still good as an opener if you use carrow golan.

Edited May 13, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Kaigen42]

I still like Ruffian. Lead Splitter still does excellent damage against low DR targets, and you can keep Dulcanale in another slot for the high DR enemies. If you're unwilling to risk melee, I still think firearms are your best bet, as a big burst of Focus at the beginning of combat is often more useful than the steady trickle you'd get from a warbow.

[Ineth]

And as far as mindblades are concerned, they're still my opener in most situations and they are still incredible powerfull.

 

"Powerful" in the sense that it can be used to dispose trash mobs, sure.

But that's true for most player abilities in this game, since even on higher difficulties most trash mobs aren't very tough (and their AI not smart at all).

 

If you look at the relative effectiveness of Cipher powers compared to other classes' abilities though, you'll see that for example the Cipher's Mind Blades (level 2) is weaker in pretty much every way compared to the Druid's Dancing Bolts (level 1).

At level 9, the Druid can spam Dancing Bolts four times per encounter, which is more than you need for most trash mob battles - and he can cast them without having to regenerate focus in-between. Thus the Druid pretty much steals the Cipher's frequently invoked "being able to spam AOEs non-stop without resting" selling point.

And at the same time, the Druid still has that large selection of situationally-useful powerful higher-level spells which make him much better than the Cipher at boss fights.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

And as far as mindblades are concerned, they're still my opener in most situations and they are still incredible powerfull.

 

 

"Powerful" in the sense that it can be used to dispose trash mobs, sure.

But that's true for most player abilities in this game, since even on higher difficulties most trash mobs aren't very tough (and their AI not smart at all).

 

If you look at the relative effectiveness of Cipher powers compared to other classes' abilities though, you'll see that for example the Cipher's Mind Blades (level 2) is weaker in pretty much every way compared to the Druid's Dancing Bolts (level 1).

At level 9, the Druid can spam Dancing Bolts four times per encounter, which is more than you need for most trash mob battles - and he can cast them without having to regenerate focus in-between. Thus the Druid pretty much steals the Cipher's frequently invoked "being able to spam AOEs non-stop without resting" selling point.

And at the same time, the Druid still has that large selection of situationally-useful powerful higher-level spells which make him much better than the Cipher at boss fights.

Apart from most people not using MB anymore you definitely won't use it at level 9

[abaris]

 

Apart from most people not using MB anymore you definitely won't use it at level 9

 

 

Say rather YOU won't use them anymore. Against certain enemies they're still effective at level 12.

[MadDemiurg]

Mind blades were (and now even more so are) terrible on PotD. They need to roll the hit again for each jump. At the level they're available on it's very difficult to hit reliably with anything. They need to do 4 or more hits to outdamage amplified thrust. That's vs 0 DT. Realistically even if all 5 hit they would often deal less damage. The only reason they were nerfed is that they require no positioning or thinking how to use them, thus everyone whined: oh noes, mind blades too stronk, I press button and they do damage.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

Apart from most people not using MB anymore you definitely won't use it at level 9

 

 

Say rather YOU won't use them anymore. Against certain enemies they're still effective at level 12.

Why not use one of your better spells on level TWELVE?

[Wolken3156]

In PotD, Mind Blades is only useful on mobs with low deflection. The thing is, most mobs will have lower Reflex or Will and enemies with low Deflection are very rare. Plus, against groups with low deflection you're better off using your weapon and building focus for your far better powers. I mean, at level 12 you have Amplified Wave. If an enemy has low Deflection, they almost always have low Fortitude as well. It just makes for more sense to use Amplified Wave instead.

 

Besides, using Mind Blades means not using Mental Binding. That's like... THE best Cipher power. Its a Paralyze that targets Will. Targeting Will just makes it the best thing ever in PotD.

[abaris]

 

Why not use one of your better spells on level TWELVE?

 

 

That doesn't exclude using the better spells. Depends on the situation.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

 

Why not use one of your better spells on level TWELVE?

 

 

That doesn't exclude using the better spells. Depends on the situation.

 

There is no such situation on level 12.

[Exoduss]

For burst generation - arbbalest/arquebus. Pair this with quickswitch.

 

For steady generation - warbow. Warbow has more overall dps and will win out in the long run.

 

As for melee - as usual pikes for reach (same group as arbalest/arquebus), estocs and dual sabers.

 

Tbh as of 1.05 dual sabers are very strong. Now that focus generation is fully tied directly to dps and not hit frequency all weapons that do 24+ damage per hit got better, and sabers were the best dps weapon already. With dual superb sabers 50 dmg hits and 80 dmg crits are the norm at high level, resulting in 16+ focus per hit. Full blunderbuss shot in 1.04 got you maybe like 30-35 focus, which you easily get with like 2 saber hits (and you can land like 10 of them while you reload a blunderbuss). Blunderbuss is still good as an opener if you use carrow golan

I still use Blunderbuss'es after 1.05 just not 4 as before

Dual Wield Sabres + Quick Switch with 2 Blunderbusses is my choice basically for me cipher and quick switch is a must because of how you can keep switching between your melee weapon and your blunderbuss after every spell cast while still on casting animation to have extra cheesy recovery times. i take island aumaua to save a talent point from arms bearer . 

 (blunderbuss doesnt have to be loaded lol you just switch to it cast a spell and switch back to melee to cast another spell with quick switch recovery instead of spell recovery, also there is extreme cheeez if you quick switch to blunderbuss for quick switch recovery time , and then switch instantly to melee again your recovery time will be overwritten by melee QS recovery time which is insanely fast but thats kinda hacking ) used this when i soloed with cipher just need to micro the quick switch very well but recovery times can be broken 

 

10 focus level 1 single target damage spell works like a boss with this tactic 

 

i assume arquebus / arbalest would work just as well or even better but whole point is that Quick Switch is important not the weapons 

Edit: also wanted to mention that Priest of magran with arquebus talents and quick switch can use same QS tactic , if you go max dex and 0 armor you can smack all the buffs in a second before you even fired a single  arquebuss just by quick switching between them , and then start firing arquebusess fully buffed with ton of crit and accuracy , 2 arquebuss + wood elf would be power choice , but you can take aumaua with 3 weapon sets for more damage and some immersion .

Edited May 13, 2015 by Exoduss

[Razorchain]

In PotD, Mind Blades is only useful on mobs with low deflection. The thing is, most mobs will have lower Reflex or Will and enemies with low Deflection are very rare. Plus, against groups with low deflection you're better off using your weapon and building focus for your far better powers. I mean, at level 12 you have Amplified Wave. If an enemy has low Deflection, they almost always have low Fortitude as well. It just makes for more sense to use Amplified Wave instead.

 

Besides, using Mind Blades means not using Mental Binding. That's like... THE best Cipher power. Its a Paralyze that targets Will. Targeting Will just makes it the best thing ever in PotD.

 

I agree, at level four it is usually Paralyze and shoot to build more focus.  Mindblades are something I might throw after my wizard has successfully cast a curse of the blackened sight to reduce the enemy deflection.

[Bubbles]

1.06 will be all about nerfing wizards back to normal power levels , and buffing some random class that is already good like barbarian or a priest maybe :D i bet 10$ rangers,paladins,druids(spiritsh1t) wont be looked into .

 

Looks like you were wrong on all counts.

[srlapo]

The only changes I had to do was swap the ole blunderbuss for an arquebus (or four, depending on the build) and take greater focus at level 2 to be able to use the highest level of powers at odd class levels before firing. Not sure what the fuss is all about.