Sawyer on vacation?

[IndiraLightfoot]

MotelOK: Oh noes! What have you done? Seriously!? There will be no expansion now...  

 

  I keed.

 

 

We have a saying in the UK, "he's a Marmite person."

 

Marmite, lest you are unaware, is a beefy-tasting yeast-extract spread. It has a very distinct flavour that people tend to either love or hate. Marmite is definitely not an "oh, that's kinda OK" phenomenon.

 

Josh is almost Marmite. Obviously, I don't know the man, only from his online persona, but he can be cold and aloof. He is clearly cleverer than you. And me. He abhors criticism, and even after years of being tossed in the harsh stormwinds of the internet, he can still be wounded.

 

OTOH he is dry, witty and clearly extremely intelligent. He takes his trade seriously, which can be both a blessing and a curse. He comes across as a person of carefully-considered and genuine beliefs, also a blessing and a curse.

 

In short, he is an interesting and flawed human being. This is why he finds himself cast, in the hyper-critical culture of gaming geekery, Marmite.

 

Personally, I'm one of those mercurial people who sometimes enjoys Marmite, and occasionally cares little for it.

 

You almost make him sound like that cool detective in True Detective (the one not cheating on his wife). And like you, I'm mercurial as far as Marmite and vegemite go - sometimes that tangy stuff tastes just right (crisp winter mornings).

 

He's posting actively to his Instagram. He is in fact on vacation -- 30 days of biking.

 

Apparently I am a bigger stalker than OP [edit: oh but it's okay, Luckmann's here, so I'm not the creepiest guy in the thread].

 

Bike voyeurs go here.

How do you even know stuff like this? You, sir, are about to be hunted by an anti-stalker task force.

[barakav]

Shazam! This thread really blew up! Anyway he's posting on twitter again. EVERYTHING IS OK! THE DIRECTOR HAS BEEN FOUND! RESUME PRODUCTION!

And he Kickstarted some lame documentary film about some Japanese village that worship cats!

 

So ,my first suggestion about him staying at home worshiping cats was actually pretty close to reality ...

[Luckmann]

 

Shazam! This thread really blew up! Anyway he's posting on twitter again. EVERYTHING IS OK! THE DIRECTOR HAS BEEN FOUND! RESUME PRODUCTION!

And he Kickstarted some lame documentary film about some Japanese village that worship cats!

 

So ,my first suggestion about him staying at home worshiping cats was actually pretty close to reality ...

 

 

Cat people.

[constantine]

am near certain josh is/was posting after poe release, just not as josh. posting as a developer changes the dynamic o' a board discussion. some folks defer to developers. other folks is instant antagonistic. post with an alt allows discussion w/o all the sawyer/obsidian baggage.

 

that being said, actual haven't seen what we believe to be his alt in the last week or so.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I ve been accused of being Saywer's alt

 

Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

Apart from someone reporting something in this thread, which then forced me to read it, I don't see anything grossly horrible.  If Sawyer were a regular member, I would have shut this thread down as engaging in personal attacks on him but, much as I am unabashedly and unashamedly a Sawyer fan, he's a developer.  He's got to take his lumps.  Still, try not to go overboard in your Sawyer scorn.  ...And don't bash other members.  No matter how much you bash the devs, please be gentle with one another, good forum members!  Don't poke anyone in the eye or pull anyone's hair.  Please don't call specific members names and the like.

[Luckmann]

Apart from someone reporting something in this thread, which then forced me to read it, I don't see anything grossly horrible.  If Sawyer were a regular member, I would have shut this thread down as engaging in personal attacks on him but, much as I am unabashedly and unashamedly a Sawyer fan, he's a developer.  He's got to take his lumps.  Still, try not to go overboard in your Sawyer scorn.  ...And don't bash other members.  No matter how much you bash the devs, please be gentle with one another, good forum members!  Don't poke anyone in the eye or pull anyone's hair.  Please don't call specific members names and the like.

 

Is licking permissible?

 

 

*licks Cantousent's bald head*

 

[GrinningReaper659]

"Why is that some people (hey, Luckmann!) fixated on mr. Sawyer as the Ultimate Enemy Of All Things Breathing so much? I mean, is there some particular comprehensible reason for it or it's just, like, irrational?"

 

More like because Obsidian games would be better without Sawyer's influence. He hates role-playing, chocies, and freedom. everything must ebt he same, act the same, be balanced he same. Even then, he fails because PE isn't even balanced. L0L

 

\Not that he is the worst designer ever as he has good dieas too but he is way overrated. This is evidenced by  the fact that he  erased a lot of work from an Obsidian writer/designher who does awesome stuff.

 

How is this evidence that Sawyer is overrated? I'll give you a hint: it's not. It's also not evidence of anything else really, it was his call to make and you being upset that some whacky character ideas didn't make it in certainly isn't "evidence" that Sawyer is overrated or a bad designer or anything else. Honestly the people who like the game seem to rarely credit Sawyer directly or even know who he is. There is a small group of people who seem to violently dislike everything about him and have for some time now.

 

 

"Regarding him hiding, nonsense, there were plenty of people who supported him, probably more than who didn't."

 

The forums were heavily against changing the limerick at all.

 

L0L so says you, Volourn. Also, it's irrelevant. Sawyer didn't change anything. He made a comment on twiiter/tumblr/whatever the **** it's called and then Obsidian (note Obsidian and Sawyer are two different things) contacted the backer and asked if he wanted to change it, the backer said yes and changed it. You guys can keep retelling the story as "Sawyer changed the backer's poem" all you want, but that's not what happened.

 

 

"RPG Codex (which hates basically everything except BG2 and maybe Torment)"

 

You obviously don't know much about the Codex.

\

 

This much is true. I mean, Codexians hate RTwP combat, so obviously they also despise BG2 and even PS:T. Then again, the most extensive poll they've done of the 70 top RPGs of all time resulted in PS:T at number 1 and BG2 not too far behind... I think the Codex likes ****ting on everything and there's not much consensus on which games they actually like. If there were, it would be evident in things such as those poll results.

[nipsen]

Imo, his biggest problem is that he thinks too highly of people, and overestimate how much thought they put into forming their opinions. And that he still has some respect for "the community", after sacrificing his design, following the initial wave of "criticism", and after offering the backers the opportunity to invent content and abilities to add to the game (although few took it) - that's the kind of generosity you rarely come across.

 

Frankly, if it was me I would have snapped, done my own project, cut the backers off with a saw, and smeared your noses in it at every opportunity I'd have.

[Gromnir]

 

am near certain josh is/was posting after poe release, just not as josh. posting as a developer changes the dynamic o' a board discussion. some folks defer to developers. other folks is instant antagonistic. post with an alt allows discussion w/o all the sawyer/obsidian baggage.

 

that being said, actual haven't seen what we believe to be his alt in the last week or so.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I ve been accused of being Saywer's alt

 

Good Fun!

 

yeah, that were silly.   these boards is full o' silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"Honestly the people who like the game seem to rarely credit Sawyer directly or even know who he is. There is a small group of people who seem to violently dislike everything about him and have for some time now."

\

That's ridiulous. I like FO:NV just fine and he played a big part in that game. If I hated Sawyer SO MUCH I wouldn't have spent $250 on this game you silly troll. Crriticizing someone/something does not mean hating them. If I hated him/the game I wouldn't post about it.  Do you see me on the ES forums? No. Because I loathe that crap. Trust me, Sawyer hates me way more than I 'dislike' him. L0L

 

 

"L0L so says you, Volourn. Also, it's irrelevant. Sawyer didn't change anything. He made a comment on twiiter/tumblr/whatever the **** it's called and then Obsidian (note Obsidian and Sawyer are two different things) contacted the backer and asked if he wanted to change it, the backer said yes and changed it. You guys can keep retelling the story as "Sawyer changed the backer's poem" all you want, but that's not what happened."

 

The backer had no choice.  If you think obsidian hadn't already made  the choice  before asking the backer you are delusional. And, Sawyer no doubt had a big role to play since he agreed with the sexist who brought it up in the first place.

 

 

"How is this evidence that Sawyer is overrated? I'll give you a hint: it's not. It's also not evidence of anything else really, it was his call to make and you being upset that some whacky character ideas didn't make it in certainly isn't "evidence" that Sawyer is overrated or a bad designer or anything else."

 

Sure, it is. Avellone is awesome and Sawyer claiming Avellone's writing sucks  and doesn't belong in the game is sure sign of lacklustre design prinicple. It also shows that joinable PE NPCs are  not this game's strength.

 

 

Again, I don't believe Sawyer is 'worst developer ever'  as he has skill but he is highly overrated and his arrogance is laughable. and hasn't been earned. Thankfully, the Obsidian bigwigs  temper his foolishness or the game would be worse if it was 100% Sawyer.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Volourn

[Cantousent]

I would just like to point out that I am, indeed, not bald. Back to regularly scheduled programming. :Cant's combing his thinning hair icon:

 

Oh, and not just to be on topic but also because I believe it, I actually think some of Sawyer's ideas that didn't make it into the final build were quite good and would have been better.   ...But I love this game.  I own that I would be a fan regardless because of an undeserved kindness I once received, but Fallout New Vegas is one of my top five favorite games and Pillars of Eternity looks like it might make it on the list.  I don't have tons of time to play, so I only recently entered Act 3, and I can't speak definitively until I've finished, but it's looking like it has real legs so far.

[Luckmann]

I would just like to point out that I am, indeed, not bald. Back to regularly scheduled programming. :Cant's combing his thinning hair icon:

 

Oh, and not just to be on topic but also because I believe it, I actually think some of Sawyer's ideas that didn't make it into the final build were quite good and would have been better.   ...But I love this game.  I own that I would be a fan regardless because of an undeserved kindness I once received, but Fallout New Vegas is one of my top five favorite games and Pillars of Eternity looks like it might make it on the list.  I don't have tons of time to play, so I only recently entered Act 3, and I can't speak definitively until I've finished, but it's looking like it has real legs so far.

 

What ideas would that be?

[Cantousent]

The big one?  No combat XP and no trap or exploration XP.  We didn't really end up with combat XP, although the bestiary XP threw out a bone for people.  The lock/trap/exploration XP wasn't necessary.  I firmly believe that folks only notice those things being absent because they're looking for them, but it is what it is.  I still think the game is great and the trap/lock/exploration XP is so trivial it doesn't matter.  If it makes people having it in the game, alls well.  I'm only in Act 3 and my people are already maxed.

[Volourn]

That's b/c xp awards for quests are often ridiculously high. I guess it was Sawyer's way of giving an FU to those who were pro combat xp. He says, you think comabt xp is so important, no quest xp is, I'll give you 1 millionnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn xp for talking to two people. L0L

[Ohioastro]

Not so much the quests as the bounties.

[Volourn]

Bounties were the worse but quests can be pretty bad too - espicially act 3 and that's b/c they wanted to make sure everyone was level 12 before end game no matter what b/c everyone has to be equal and therefore you cna't reward those who explore and play the game.

[Prime-Mover]

Bounties were the worse but quests can be pretty bad too - espicially act 3 and that's b/c they wanted to make sure everyone was level 12 before end game no matter what b/c everyone has to be equal and therefore you cna't reward those who explore and play the game.

I completed the game with all my dudes at lvl 8, non-completionist. I don't see your point.

[Volourn]

How is that impossible? Did you purposefully skip entire areas? L0L You aren't a gamer if youa re trying to finish a game ASAP. Plus, an existence of an exemption proves a rule.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Volourn

[Prime-Mover]

How is that impossible? Did you purposefully skip entire areas? L0L You aren't a gamer if youa re trying to finish a game ASAP. Plus, an existence of an exemption proves a rule.

 

You mean "possible"? After finishing Ch. 2 I kind of just let the main story dictate my actions. I didn't go out of my way to seek out side-quests, didn't go to the depts of Od Nua because it felt gay, and didn't take any bounties because they were too difficult when I first tried. I also didn't speak to NPC's unless the main quest dictated it, and I didn't engage with funnny looking NPC's unless they directly approached me. 

 

Lastly, because this just sounds wierd: In what way does the existence of an exemption prove a rule?

 

 

edit: just went back and checked again. I was at lvl 9, not 8. 

Edited May 2, 2015 by Prime-Mover

[Volourn]

"didn't go to the depts of Od Nua because it felt gay,"
 

HOMOPHOBE TRIGGER ALERT! SJWS UNITE!

 

 

\": just went back and checked again. I was at lvl 9, not 8."

 

Admitted liar. Cannot be trusted in any defense of the game now.

 

 

"Lastly, because this just sounds wierd: In what way does the existence of an exemption prove a rule?"

 

You've never heard the expression 'exception that proves the rule'? L0L

[Prime-Mover]

"didn't go to the depts of Od Nua because it felt gay,"

 

HOMOPHOBE TRIGGER ALERT! SJWS UNITE!

 

 

\": just went back and checked again. I was at lvl 9, not 8."

 

Admitted liar. Cannot be trusted in any defense of the game now.

 

 

"Lastly, because this just sounds wierd: In what way does the existence of an exemption prove a rule?"

 

You've never heard the expression 'exception that proves the rule'? L0L

Yeah, but it sounds stupid, or more modestly: I can't make sense of it. And even if we accepted that notion, who's to say that you're not the exception here? Who knows whether the average player reaches lvl 12? Clearly I'm proof of concept here, but two people's experiences is hardly enough to establish a pattern. So you now need to actually produce an argument or evidence to support your claim.

[GrinningReaper659]

 

"didn't go to the depts of Od Nua because it felt gay,"

 

HOMOPHOBE TRIGGER ALERT! SJWS UNITE!

 

 

\": just went back and checked again. I was at lvl 9, not 8."

 

Admitted liar. Cannot be trusted in any defense of the game now.

 

 

"Lastly, because this just sounds wierd: In what way does the existence of an exemption prove a rule?"

 

You've never heard the expression 'exception that proves the rule'? L0L

Yeah, but it sounds stupid, or more modestly: I can't make sense of it. And even if we accepted that notion, who's to say that you're not the exception here? Who knows whether the average player reaches lvl 12? Clearly I'm proof of concept here, but two people's experiences is hardly enough to establish a pattern. So you now need to actually produce an argument or evidence to support your claim.

 

 

For what it's worth, my whole party hit level 12 before doing any Act III quests (but Act III had started, I loaded the Twin Elms map and then left immediately), before doing level 8 of the endless paths, and with ~4 bounties left to do.

[Prime-Mover]

 

 

"didn't go to the depts of Od Nua because it felt gay,"

 

HOMOPHOBE TRIGGER ALERT! SJWS UNITE!

 

 

\": just went back and checked again. I was at lvl 9, not 8."

 

Admitted liar. Cannot be trusted in any defense of the game now.

 

 

"Lastly, because this just sounds wierd: In what way does the existence of an exemption prove a rule?"

 

You've never heard the expression 'exception that proves the rule'? L0L

Yeah, but it sounds stupid, or more modestly: I can't make sense of it. And even if we accepted that notion, who's to say that you're not the exception here? Who knows whether the average player reaches lvl 12? Clearly I'm proof of concept here, but two people's experiences is hardly enough to establish a pattern. So you now need to actually produce an argument or evidence to support your claim.

 

 

For what it's worth, my whole party hit level 12 before doing any Act III quests (but Act III had started, I loaded the Twin Elms map and then left immediately), before doing level 8 of the endless paths, and with ~4 bounties left to do.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case for many of the IE veterans around (especially BG2). Those games with their high lvl-cap, their epic loot and combat xp has indoctrinated many people to a fairly completionist playstyle. I however never got that urge on my first playthrough of POE though. Perhaps because people in the forums were already vocal with regard to the fact that the game was very magnanimous in terms of dishing xp. But I am proof that sticking mainly to the main quest does not result in an overabundance of xp, and even though I stuck to the main story, I never felt like I went out of my way to acquire avoid getting xp.

[Nakia]

We each have our way of playing the game.  No one's play style is right or wrong.   Once I have played the game I do like to see how others played it.  I just watched a few play troughs on YouTube and got some tips to things I could improve.   I completed Act II at level nine but had not finished the Endless paths or done all the Bounty quests.  I also think I missed a couple of quests in Defiance Bay I could have done.  I have started another play through and will try to beat my personal best. 

[Luckmann]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case for many of the IE veterans around (especially BG2). Those games with their high lvl-cap, their epic loot and combat xp has indoctrinated many people to a fairly completionist playstyle. I however never got that urge on my first playthrough of POE though. Perhaps because people in the forums were already vocal with regard to the fact that the game was very magnanimous in terms of dishing xp. But I am proof that sticking mainly to the main quest does not result in an overabundance of xp, and even though I stuck to the main story, I never felt like I went out of my way to acquire avoid getting xp.

Bull. It's not an issue of a high or low level cap, it's an issue of pacing, and has nothing to do with "indoctrination". Content is meant to be played, to draw a hard line between "completionists" and "casuals" is ridiculous, and creates the false dichotomy of two groups for mental midgets to lump everyone together into and label. The real world with real people doesn't work that way. A lot of IE veterans even prefer lower-level play, and consider IWD2 and ToB to practically make the system fall apart.

 

There is currently no problem with finishing the game with only doing a bit of the sidequests and primarily the main quest, and you should end up at level 12 by the end anyway, even though level 9 would do, whereas if you do most of the quests, you end up level 12 long before Twin Elms (assuming some missed quests/deliberate avoidance and about ~7 levels of Od Nua). The pacing is shot to hell.

 

There's some really easy ways to solve it, though, but so far they haven't shown any interest in doing so (much like fixing the Attribute bonuses, which they also know are lopsided).

 

We each have our way of playing the game.  No one's play style is right or wrong.   Once I have played the game I do like to see how others played it.  I just watched a few play troughs on YouTube and got some tips to things I could improve.   I completed Act II at level nine but had not finished the Endless paths or done all the Bounty quests.  I also think I missed a couple of quests in Defiance Bay I could have done.  I have started another play through and will try to beat my personal best. 

 

"Personal best" as in "highest level fastest"?

 

The big one? No combat XP and no trap or exploration XP. We didn't really end up with combat XP, although the bestiary XP threw out a bone for people. The lock/trap/exploration XP wasn't necessary. I firmly believe that folks only notice those things being absent because they're looking for them, but it is what it is. I still think the game is great and the trap/lock/exploration XP is so trivial it doesn't matter. If it makes people having it in the game, alls well. I'm only in Act 3 and my people are already maxed.

Well it certainly would've improved the game, that's for sure. That bestiary experience and the trap/lockpicking experience actually adds up to a lot. There's probably hundreds of traps in the game and several thousands worth of experience from the bestiary. The worst thing is really that I get the feeling that they never understood the arguments for Goal-Oriented Experience vs. Murderhobo-Oriented Experience, because having it like it is completely undermines it.

 

There is no "middle ground", because ultimately it's not about how much experience you dole out, but that you do it at a remotely meaningful level at all.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Luckmann