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The people who trash talk Josh Sawyer all the time need a reality check. He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it. Stop with your insults and personal attacks, it makes me sick to my stomach. He's a human being and doesn't deserve an internet hydra of whining, insult flinging halfwits with entitlement issues. He worked hard on this game, and he doesn't owe you anything. God. *PUKE!*

Edited by cloudline
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The people who trash talk Josh Sawyer all the time need a reality check. He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it. Stop with your insults and personal attacks, it makes me sick to my stomach. He's a human being and doesn't deserve an internet hydra of whining, insult flinging halfwits with entitlement issues. He worked hard on this game, and he doesn't owe you anything. God. *PUKE!*

Seconded.

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"The people who trash talk Josh Sawyer all the time need a reality check. He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it. Stop with your insults and personal attacks, it makes me sick to my stomach. He's a human being and doesn't deserve an internet hydra of whining, insult flinging halfwits with entitlement issues. He worked hard on this game, and he doesn't owe you anything. God. *PUKE!*"
 

Attacking/criticising the game/developer is not trash talking. Now, no need for threats and whatnot but is there any of that going on? None that I can. Saying he is not as good as a developer as he/others think he is should not be out of bounds. Also, let's forget he has no problem perosnally attacking Obsidian's customers. Also, HE may not owe us anything but Obsidian does. In fact, they owe me an expansion pack (I know I get it so no worries). L0L

 

Why do you insult Mr. Sawyer so much? Do you think he is weak and feeble that he needs protection from criticism? I am going to continue to treat him like a grown man who can take care of himself. He can dish it out and take it.  That's life.

 

Also, I bet you holier than thous have had no problem attacking other people - be they devs or other 'famous' people - so stop your silliness.

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The people who trash talk Josh Sawyer all the time need a reality check. He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it. Stop with your insults and personal attacks, it makes me sick to my stomach. He's a human being and doesn't deserve an internet hydra of whining, insult flinging halfwits with entitlement issues. He worked hard on this game, and he doesn't owe you anything. God. *PUKE!*

I find it funny you're going off on personal attacks and insults, while insulting and attacking.

 

Sawyer is a big guy, he can take the heat.

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"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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You're not the first one to make that observation. And my endless stream-of-conscious rants isn't really helping either.. >_<

 

 

The people who trash talk Josh Sawyer all the time need a reality check. He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it. Stop with your insults and personal attacks, it makes me sick to my stomach. He's a human being and doesn't deserve an internet hydra of whining, insult flinging halfwits with entitlement issues. He worked hard on this game, and he doesn't owe you anything. God. *PUKE!*


I find it funny you're going off on personal attacks and insults, while insulting and attacking.

Sawyer is a big guy, he can take the heat.

 

That.. sort of didn't stop the weird attention and entitlement cult from monopolizing the beta feedback. That then actually ended up scuttling Obsidian's initial draft.

 

I mean - I've been in betas where AAA developers stepped right into this before. Making massive (and in the end very unpopular) changes to the mechanics of a game, right after release, based on "fresh user feedback". But the PoE variant was just.. strange.

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"This place is beginning to look more and more like the BioWare forums..."

 

It was always like the BIO forums. Every forum works exactly the same. There is no unique snowflakes.

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..I suppose we could at least try to avoid the worst non-sequiturs..? That would go a long way.

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So do you perhaps grasp a tiny little bit of my frustration with the idea that Sensuki and Matt will have their forced Might-build/no accuracy/perception is evil idiocy modded permanently into the game, when I can't mod it out again? (Or even more fantastically, that Sensuki likely would have been able to mod it in with extremely little effort and a little help from the devs? Hell, the devs could have implemented it with a switch in the menu!) Or understand both my technical and non-technical disappointment when Obsidian would actually commit to making permanent and limiting changes like this? It's so dumb to do it that it's just baffling that an experienced dev would do it. I mean, who in their right mind - without any development experience - would do something like this?

We have nothing to do with the attribute system used for the game. Thankyou very much. Yes it sucks, but it has nothing to do with either me or Matt516. Everything we've said regarding it has been completely ignored, so you can blame Josh Sawyer/Obsidian for it, thankyou very much.

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We have nothing to do with the attribute system used for the game. Thankyou very much. Yes it sucks, but it has nothing to do with either me or Matt516. Everything we've said regarding it has been completely ignored, so you can blame Josh Sawyer/Obsidian for it, thankyou very much.

Mhm. Josh just mentions you by name in the dev stream when it comes to all other gameflow tweaks because he likes the sound of it. At some point when I pressed Obsidian folks on where this so-called "user feedback" they were steering after actually came from. They happened to let on that they were moving away from taking on board user feedback, and that one of the guys in question had now decided to go full effort on modding instead, as he was still unhappy with the results. Really, who could they have been talking about? There's like, hundreds of people to choose from.

 

But I'll give you that -- you really didn't think your min/maxed might build feedback had anything to do with the character ability system, did you? "Ohnoes, I created a build I don't understand what does and which doesn't act the way I wish it did! Trap Build!!! Evidenced by the way I ignore all directions and feedback from the game and are able to trap myself! Aaargh, arrgh! Pillars of Eternity is borken! Turn perception into attack and all will be well!! What am I even saying!".

 

Same with the paper - if you wanted to implement a coin-flip system for attack rolls, this has implications for how the attack rolls are done, and accuracy needed to be done away with more or less. Which they eventually did by reducing the effect it had on the attack rolls. That was the whole result of that waste of paper, and no one else wanted that.

 

But I also agree that a huge part of the blame for this lies with Obsidian, in actually making fundamental changes to the game based on or derived from user-feedback. Hopefully Obsidian folks will learn from that.

 

Then again, on the other hand, I asked you all ahead of the beta that since Obsidian had obviously set out the red carpet for this kind of user-feedback, and asked specifically for it - that we should not abuse that channel. That people should be respectful, and explain their point of view carefully, rather than make vast sweeping generalisations about design direction based on one tiny slice of the game.

 

Remember that? How people pointed out that since this was a kickstarter, user-feedback would likely have to be treated with a bit more attention than normal.

 

So when you abuse that, and when they do respond and give you what you ask for - what they did still wasn't good enough.

 

And here you are now, probably with all kinds of suggestions for specific incremental changes, that if implemented exactly like you envision them, would make the game perfect. 

 

Really, there's this weird moral lesson to be learned here, but I simply can't grasp it with my extremely small, closed and egotistical brain, Sensuki! Aaargh, arrgh!

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None of that is true man. You're using a couple of facts from different places and eras but twisting them to make up your own story either out of delusion or for the purpose of intentional smearing, or possibly both.

I was not mentioned in any dev stream. I've never heard Josh mention any specific backer in an interview OR a stream.

The bit where you say they 'were moving away from taking board user feedback' you have twisted up. This statement is taken from something they said on the forums (and probably somewhere else), and they did state that they were trying to avoid taking any suggestions or feedback when they did their internal playthrough because they wanted to focus on fixing the stuff that they found when they did it. There are tons of bits of feedback that they took all the way up to release. One thing they did do was stop to drastically change gameplay features.
 

But I'll give you that -- you really didn't think your min/maxed might build feedback had anything to do with the character ability system, did you? "Ohnoes, I created a build I don't understand what does and which doesn't act the way I wish it did! Trap Build!!! Evidenced by the way I ignore all directions and feedback from the game and are able to trap myself! Aaargh, arrgh! Pillars of Eternity is borken! Turn perception into attack and all will be well!! What am I even saying!".


You have no idea what I think. By the way, if you haven't realized yet bro, the only thing different between the Perception Attribute now and the v257 Attribute system which you loved so much is that the Attribute now gives +1 Deflection as well as some interrupt.
 

Same with the paper - if you wanted to implement a coin-flip system for attack rolls, this has implications for how the attack rolls are done, and accuracy needed to be done away with more or less. Which they eventually did by reducing the effect it had on the attack rolls. That was the whole result of that waste of paper, and no one else wanted that.


Once again, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Neither of us said anything about removing Accuracy, anywhere, ever. I was vocally angry about it, actually. They did not remove it because of anything we did. 

Plus, I'm not even sure you could explain how the attack resolution system worked as you seem to have a completely imaginary view of the game systems.

 

 

 

But I also agree that a huge part of the blame for this lies with Obsidian, in actually making fundamental changes to the game based on or derived from user-feedback. Hopefully Obsidian folks will learn from that.

 

All of the blame, actually.

 

Then again, on the other hand, I asked you all ahead of the beta that since Obsidian had obviously set out the red carpet for this kind of user-feedback, and asked specifically for it - that we should not abuse that channel. That people should be respectful, and explain their point of view carefully, rather than make vast sweeping generalisations about design direction based on one tiny slice of the game.

 

The only person making vast sweeping generalizations is you.

 

I don't believe there is a single person on this forum other than yourself that believes that we had any influence on the attribute system. Most people will say that they actively ignored our feedback on it.

Edited by Sensuki
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None of that is true man. You're using a couple of facts from different places and eras but twisting them to make up your own story either out of delusion or for the purpose of intentional smearing, or possibly both.

 

I was not mentioned in any dev stream. I've never heard Josh mention any specific backer in an interview OR a stream.

No, you're actually mentioned by nickname in the build notes Josh posted.. as late as in December or something like that. I remembered it because it said something about "diminishing returns" next to it.

 

The bit where you say they 'were moving away from taking board user feedback' you have twisted up. This statement is taken from something they said on the forums (and probably somewhere else), and they did state that they were trying to avoid taking any suggestions or feedback when they did their internal playthrough because they wanted to focus on fixing the stuff that they found when they did it. There are tons of bits of feedback that they took all the way up to release. One thing they did do was stop to drastically change gameplay features.

After changing the core system didn't end up with the expected "thank you for doing what we asked for", I guess. Of course, they still kept the changes. Because branches on the project are for wimps, I guess..

 

 

You have no idea what I think. By the way, if you haven't realized yet bro, the only thing different between the Perception Attribute now and the v257 Attribute system which you loved so much is that the Attribute now gives +1 Deflection as well as some interrupt.

And the rest of the variables that affected interrupts in engagement, that now are class variables you can't change?

 

What about how they removed the chance that anything except a "natural 20" would cause serious damage, when they flattened out and normalized every class in the game, when keeping the same number of attacks as before? How this makes a nominal interrupt-build useless - just like all the other accuracy, perception and dexterity based builds? How causing injuries with high accuracy vs. deflection challenges are out of the game, and leaves only the flat "wear down my HP" might-builds as an unchangeable default, etc.?

 

What about the rest of the shuffling of the variables to accommodate the other changes? 

 

See, here's my problem with this. You really don't get that a small change that affects the scope of the ruleset - still affects the scope of the ruleset.

 

Most people will say that they actively ignored our feedback on it.

Mm, no. They didn't kneefall and hire people in as consultants. They did everything else up to that point, and "fans" still didn't appreciate it.

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No, you're actually mentioned by nickname in the build notes Josh posted.. as late as in December or something like that. I remembered it because it said something about "diminishing returns" next to it.

I challenge you to find the post, because I have not been mentioned by name anywhere except in one Kickstarter update where it says Sensuki, coffeetable and Tagomika asked questions about outsourcing ... so here's an update about outsourcing (Environment Art).

 

After changing the core system didn't end up with the expected "thank you for doing what we asked for", I guess. Of course, they still kept the changes. Because branches on the project are for wimps, I guess..

They changed the 'core system' (I think you mean Attribute system?) after feedback from Internal QA. One of the internal QA guys (Nick Carver) is now a Junior System Designer for Pillars of Eternity. If you want to know who influenced the design - that might be a place to start.

 

And the rest of the variables that affected interrupts in engagement, that now are class variables you can't change?

Yes, interrupts now end engagement. This was not something I had anything to do with. If you wanted them to not end engagement it wouldn't be very difficult to edit, you could submit a request for an option in the IE mod which is now being overseen by BWallace if you wanted it removed.

 

What about how they removed the chance that anything except a "natural 20" would cause serious damage

Do you mean from D&D? I prefer natural 20 crits as well, but they were never in Pillars of Eternity.

 

when they flattened out and normalized every class in the game

 

Can you be more specific? Once again, homogenization of classes is not something I like either. 

 

when keeping the same number of attacks as before?

 

Once again, please elaborate. What number of attacks from where?

 

How this makes a nominal interrupt-build useless - just like all the other accuracy, perception and dexterity based builds? How causing injuries with high accuracy vs. deflection challenges are out of the game, and leaves only the flat "wear down my HP" might-builds as an unchangeable default, etc.?

Interrupt builds have always been 'useless' in Pillars of Eternity IMO because they don't do anything except interrupt. And once again, it was not my idea to remove accuracy from attributes, I hated that change.

 

All of these 'changes' from D&D - no natural die roll crits, homogenized class design, attack speed system and attributes are all decisions made by Obsidian. These are all things that I don't like. 

 

Yes, we made a paper on Attributes and it may have said some things that you didn't like but none of our designs were ever used or even remotely influenced what they did with the design. There's only one mechanic in the game that I may have had some impact on and that is recovery time no longer being completely paused while moving. Otherwise most 'design' changes I have talked about have been actively ignored.

 

Your quarrel is elsewhere.

Edited by Sensuki
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Wow, Sensuki is behind PoE sucking. Was he behind 9/11 as well?

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"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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Wow, Sensuki is behind PoE sucking. Was he behind 9/11 as well?

Yes.  And ISIL (or whatever the **** the media are calling them now).

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He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it.

Can we eat doughnuts if we do like it, or do we have to not like it to eat doughnuts now...?

Edited by Amentep
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He's a person. He helped make a game. Eat a doughnut if you don't like it.

Can we eat doughnuts if we do like it, or do we have to not like it to eat doughnuts now...?

What kind of donuts we talking about?


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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