Am I the only one that just stopped playing?

[Gromnir]

 

people demand hard and meaningful choices in crpgs.

 

people get angry when developers include hard and meaningful choices.

 

...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps it is a meaningful choice.  you cannot advance other quests and there is even faction talents you will be locked outta by choosing one faction over another.  limit the definition o' consequences or meaning to one specific choice is misleading.

Don't think the concern is that choices are hard and meningful. It's rather a lack of signposting that's annoying.

 

really?  am certain there is ways to get too much rep with a faction via a couple o' the tasks and side quests, but the faction leaders made it kinda clear to us that if we accepted Quest X, it would anger the other factions.  do a particular quest on entering defiance bay and side against dommel's could result in such a quirky result, but that still leaves you with two options... and the very reasonable animosity o' the family members o' the person you killed.  such a choice also not actual prevent you from doing multiple dommel quests.

 

hard choices should be announced, and they is, but at the same time, how much hand-holding does folks need?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

Of all the reasons, I didn't expect that one.

 

All 3 factions say HEY MATE, REMEMBER, IF YOU ACCEPT THIS QUEST, LOOK, THE OTHER FACTIONS WILL HATE YOU! OKAY? ARE YOU SURE? 

 

*shrug*

[jackjack]

I hate to say it, but I am having trouble staying interested for now. Every time I fire it up, I get bored after 10-15 minutes. I'm assuming that I'm just RPG'd out. Will come back to it later, as I'm not convinced it's an issue with the game itself.

[Prime-Mover]

 

 

people demand hard and meaningful choices in crpgs.

 

people get angry when developers include hard and meaningful choices.

 

...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps it is a meaningful choice.  you cannot advance other quests and there is even faction talents you will be locked outta by choosing one faction over another.  limit the definition o' consequences or meaning to one specific choice is misleading.

Don't think the concern is that choices are hard and meningful. It's rather a lack of signposting that's annoying.

 

really?  am certain there is ways to get too much rep with a faction via a couple o' the tasks and side quests, but the faction leaders made it kinda clear to us that if we accepted Quest X, it would anger the other factions.  do a particular quest on entering defiance bay and side against dommel's could result in such a quirky result, but that still leaves you with two options... and the very reasonable animosity o' the family members o' the person you killed.  such a choice also not actual prevent you from doing multiple dommel quests.

 

hard choices should be announced, and they is, but at the same time, how much hand-holding does folks need?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I won't claim that I didn't miss important peices of dialogue on account of my eyes tiring, but I was surprised at being locked out of one particular faction. I also really didn't have a clear impression of what the faction I had then picked really stood for. So it wasn't a meaningful choice for my character. In BG2 it was more black and white due to the simple good/evil dichotomy and perhaps I was just expecting the same degree of clarity with regards to how my choices would affect the story. Instead at lot of the outcomes in many cases just felt random, outside my control.

 

But heck, I'm not necessarily representative of the people playing this game, and maybe I'm simply not doing it right.

[ShadowStorm]

 

 

people demand hard and meaningful choices in crpgs.

 

people get angry when developers include hard and meaningful choices.

 

...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps it is a meaningful choice.  you cannot advance other quests and there is even faction talents you will be locked outta by choosing one faction over another.  limit the definition o' consequences or meaning to one specific choice is misleading.

Don't think the concern is that choices are hard and meningful. It's rather a lack of signposting that's annoying.

 

really?  am certain there is ways to get too much rep with a faction via a couple o' the tasks and side quests, but the faction leaders made it kinda clear to us that if we accepted Quest X, it would anger the other factions.  do a particular quest on entering defiance bay and side against dommel's could result in such a quirky result, but that still leaves you with two options... and the very reasonable animosity o' the family members o' the person you killed.  such a choice also not actual prevent you from doing multiple dommel quests.

 

hard choices should be announced, and they is, but at the same time, how much hand-holding does folks need?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Saying yes to something isn't much of a commitment and how that is telegraphed to the other faction is quite silly. What if you were lying about doing this quest, or just said yes to get more information, to then give to the other faction? 

 

Lots of really good reasons to say yes to a quest and not intending to go through with it and a very good reason to assume that the other faction won't get an email about it.

[Ink Blot]

Of all the reasons, I didn't expect that one.

 

All 3 factions say HEY MATE, REMEMBER, IF YOU ACCEPT THIS QUEST, LOOK, THE OTHER FACTIONS WILL HATE YOU! OKAY? ARE YOU SURE? 

 

*shrug*

You're correct, of course, but as ShadowStorm noted, it seemed reasonable to assume you could accept the quest and decide to renege later on. No reason to assume that faction would immediately send a runner to the town crier to announce to the other factions that you accepted a quest.

 

Not a huge deal, as I just shrugged and rolled with it. But I did assume that even if I accepted the quest I might be able to twist it to my advantage and possibly use it as leverage with the other factions. Not an unreasonable thought, I believe, since some of the other quests to that point allowed you to lie about them.

[Sven_]

Of all the reasons, I didn't expect that one.

 

All 3 factions say HEY MATE, REMEMBER, IF YOU ACCEPT THIS QUEST, LOOK, THE OTHER FACTIONS WILL HATE YOU! OKAY? ARE YOU SURE? 

 

*shrug*

 

 

On top of that each one of them lets you interact with them initially, that is the "first" quest is pretty much a card blanche, but after that it should be bloody obvious what's going to happen next both by what has been communicated through the dialogue and the quest objectives too. Like why do you help the guys clearly opposing your favourite faction in the first place? Making it more obvious would have taken it into the realms of META hell (NOTE: POINT OF NO RETURN BEHIND THIS). And every time the game lets you lie, the dialogue option has been clearly marked as such up to that point, like LIE:....

 

I doubt that this is the only reason that made him stop playing, but I'm speechless all the same about this. PoE isn't even that straight about this. The factions are pretty much the only area in the game that has fail states such as this. In Wasteland 2 for instance there is a choice about an hour in that may lock out an entire region (more will follow), there is an optional ending screen into the game about just as much time being played, you can make your own people hunt you down as they can outright oppose you depending on your actions; your squad members may leave you depending on what you're doing and not return, and on smaller scales taking the "good guy" option by freeing someone captured might bite back to haunt you a hour or two later in the form of massive goons of the capturer having finally tracked you down, etc.

 

Must be the influence of Skyrim, where you can join the Assassins, The Royal Guard Of Fubar, save the World From Dragons AND become the King Of Thievese all at once without anybody giving a darn either way. :confused:

Edited April 28, 2015 by Sven_

[Gromnir]

to ss

 

you are told, without equivocation, that if you take a quest, you will anger factions A & B.

 

you take the quest.

 

the player expresses shock that he cannot align with faction A & B.

 

am having difficulty expressing our lack o' sympathy.

 

 

for folks who missed the warning 'cause they got tired o' reading...

 

*shrug*

 

as soon as you get warning, it is on you to do due diligence and explore what each faction offers and stands for... and that info is readily available. 

 

again, there is some quirks that Could result in getting too much rep before speaking with a faction head, but such stuff is rare and doing so excludes you from one faction.  the results is reasonable. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps added clip that captures our reaction.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gromnir

[Tigranes]

 

 

 

people demand hard and meaningful choices in crpgs.

 

people get angry when developers include hard and meaningful choices.

 

...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps it is a meaningful choice.  you cannot advance other quests and there is even faction talents you will be locked outta by choosing one faction over another.  limit the definition o' consequences or meaning to one specific choice is misleading.

Don't think the concern is that choices are hard and meningful. It's rather a lack of signposting that's annoying.

 

really?  am certain there is ways to get too much rep with a faction via a couple o' the tasks and side quests, but the faction leaders made it kinda clear to us that if we accepted Quest X, it would anger the other factions.  do a particular quest on entering defiance bay and side against dommel's could result in such a quirky result, but that still leaves you with two options... and the very reasonable animosity o' the family members o' the person you killed.  such a choice also not actual prevent you from doing multiple dommel quests.

 

hard choices should be announced, and they is, but at the same time, how much hand-holding does folks need?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I won't claim that I didn't miss important peices of dialogue on account of my eyes tiring, but I was surprised at being locked out of one particular faction. I also really didn't have a clear impression of what the faction I had then picked really stood for. So it wasn't a meaningful choice for my character. In BG2 it was more black and white due to the simple good/evil dichotomy and perhaps I was just expecting the same degree of clarity with regards to how my choices would affect the story. Instead at lot of the outcomes in many cases just felt random, outside my control.

 

But heck, I'm not necessarily representative of the people playing this game, and maybe I'm simply not doing it right.

 

 

As soonh as you enter Defiance Bay, the rabble rouser outside tells you what the Dozens are and what they stand for. The Knights of the Crucible's stance on animancy should be crystal clear by the time they offer you the lock-in quest, because you just helped them make golem animat things. The Doemenels showcase their ruthless power-hungriness in the first quest you do for them (Verzano), making it pretty clear throughout they aren't so much for or against animancy as they just want power.

 

You learn what the factions are for, you get clear warning of the lock-in.

 

What they needed to do was make your faction choice more consequential instead of a crappy show trial. 

[Ink Blot]

Must be the influence of Skyrim, where you can join the Assassins, The Royal Guard Of Fubar, save the World From Dragons AND become the King Of Thievese all at once without anybody giving a darn either way. :confused:

 

Oh, yay! We're going to insult peoples' intelligence now are we?

 

Here's my last word on it: in a roleplaying game such as this one, given that you can actually lie about some of the things you do, I don't think it's unreasonable, despite the warning that you will piss off the other factions, that you assume you can play both ends against the middle and maybe go to the other factions and double cross the first one. Especially since you haven't actually done the offered quest yet.

 

Whatever.

[Sven_]

 

Must be the influence of Skyrim, where you can join the Assassins, The Royal Guard Of Fubar, save the World From Dragons AND become the King Of Thievese all at once without anybody giving a darn either way. :confused:

 

Oh, yay! We're going to insult peoples' intelligence now are we?

 

 

 

How is that an attempt at insulting somebody's intelligence? It only is such if you seem to infer from this that Skyrim would be a game for fools (I like it, by the way, even though nothing you do has any consequence, which is pretty shallow and warrants a mock like this in my book). This is a mocking of the game, parts of it anyhow, not the people who play it. However: The PoE kind of design is the designated niche, the Skyrim one where nothing you do has any influence is the mainstream -- thus the latter design is the one people are used to (and may have come to expect), whilst PoE ain't that much. Has nothing to do with intelligence, more with habit and expectation. Is all.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Sven_

[Ink Blot]

 

How is that an attempt at insulting somebody's intelligence? It only is such if you seem to infer from this that Skyrim would be a game for fools (I like it, by the way, even though nothing you do has any consequence, which is pretty shallow and warrants a mock like this in my book). This is a mocking of the game, parts of it anyhow, not the people who play it. However: The PoE kind of design is the designated niche, the Skyrim one where nothing you do has any influence is the mainstream -- thus the latter design is the one people are used to (and may have come to expect), whilst PoE ain't that much. Has nothing to do with intelligence, more with habit and expectation. Is all.

 

I stand corrected. Apologies.

[Prime-Mover]

 

 

 

 

people demand hard and meaningful choices in crpgs.

 

people get angry when developers include hard and meaningful choices.

 

...

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps it is a meaningful choice.  you cannot advance other quests and there is even faction talents you will be locked outta by choosing one faction over another.  limit the definition o' consequences or meaning to one specific choice is misleading.

Don't think the concern is that choices are hard and meningful. It's rather a lack of signposting that's annoying.

 

really?  am certain there is ways to get too much rep with a faction via a couple o' the tasks and side quests, but the faction leaders made it kinda clear to us that if we accepted Quest X, it would anger the other factions.  do a particular quest on entering defiance bay and side against dommel's could result in such a quirky result, but that still leaves you with two options... and the very reasonable animosity o' the family members o' the person you killed.  such a choice also not actual prevent you from doing multiple dommel quests.

 

hard choices should be announced, and they is, but at the same time, how much hand-holding does folks need?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I won't claim that I didn't miss important peices of dialogue on account of my eyes tiring, but I was surprised at being locked out of one particular faction. I also really didn't have a clear impression of what the faction I had then picked really stood for. So it wasn't a meaningful choice for my character. In BG2 it was more black and white due to the simple good/evil dichotomy and perhaps I was just expecting the same degree of clarity with regards to how my choices would affect the story. Instead at lot of the outcomes in many cases just felt random, outside my control.

 

But heck, I'm not necessarily representative of the people playing this game, and maybe I'm simply not doing it right.

 

 

As soonh as you enter Defiance Bay, the rabble rouser outside tells you what the Dozens are and what they stand for. The Knights of the Crucible's stance on animancy should be crystal clear by the time they offer you the lock-in quest, because you just helped them make golem animat things. The Doemenels showcase their ruthless power-hungriness in the first quest you do for them (Verzano), making it pretty clear throughout they aren't so much for or against animancy as they just want power.

 

You learn what the factions are for, you get clear warning of the lock-in.

 

What they needed to do was make your faction choice more consequential instead of a crappy show trial. 

 

This is a bit fuzzy at this point, and I'm trying to be as modest as I possibly can be, but I don't recall the rabble approaching me and forcing me to talk to them. I had no idea how they related to any of the factions. I also never got offered a quest with the Doemenels as far as I can remember, and I only really knew about them after I had slaughtered some of thier men helping some other guy who was in a pinch. Only then did I know they were an actual faction. 

 

All in all, I may simply be below average intelligence, or lacking in reading comprehension, but I did either not get the appropriate hints, or I simply didn't understand/pick up on them with regards to how the various factions related. I have no idea whether this is a problem for the game or not, or simply a problem for me, and I certainly don't want to get into a discussion of whether this game should be geard towards the hard-core segment or the filthy casuals. But, for whatever reasons, it was much less clear to me what was actually going on than in every IE game out there, espceically with regards to the factions.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Prime-Mover

[GrinningReaper659]

Of all the reasons, I didn't expect that one.

 

All 3 factions say HEY MATE, REMEMBER, IF YOU ACCEPT THIS QUEST, LOOK, THE OTHER FACTIONS WILL HATE YOU! OKAY? ARE YOU SURE? 

 

*shrug*

 

That's all fine, but there was never any indication that you would be forced to side with or seek the help of one of these three factions (or that there would be only three options). At first, I wasn't sure which of the two I preferred, and it wasn't until doing quests and getting to know them better that I decided on the Knights, who would no longer work with me at that point. You can't really form an informed opinion on the dozens until

you catch them attacking someone innocent in Ondra's Gift, among other things

...and you can't really form an informed opinion about the Knights until

you realize that their specific ventures into animancy (the armor knights) could be reckless/unnecessarily dangerous

Again, all that would be fine I guess, but then the game forces you to get the help of one of the groups. This, too, turns out to be pretty irrelevant, admittedly.

 

As for the third "faction," I had already burned that bridge before ever realizing that they would be one of only three options and before officially meeting any of the groups.

 

It doesn't bother me much, but the "maybe you guys should just learn to read" attitude presented by you and Gromnir isn't very useful.

[Gromnir]

as we noted above, there is a way that you can exclude yourself from the opportunity to align with a faction before you get warning that there will be a faction choice.  help a certain merchant in surviving an encounter with a criminal organization?  kill somebody named doemenel excludes you from joining doemenel's?  is a reasonable result that still allows you to do most doemenel side quests.  is a limited situation and you still get to choose between the other two factions... but not the crime family that you already sided against and used bloody violence to stop. 

 

reaper,

 

you are warned that you will cheese off other factions, so no surprise when that happens.  however, you do mention that you potential do not know the significance o' angering the other factions at the time you make the choice.  is fair.  however, other than some kinda Red Letter warning in bold letters, am not certain what kinda in-game warning you would have taken more serious... and that kinda thing would no doubt bother other folks as immersion breaking and forcible metagaming.  the choice were handled quite reasonable.  the warning should have been an indication that the choice had significance.

 

not realize the full repercussions o' a choice?  am not seeing why that is bad.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gromnir

[Monte Carlo]

I'm on the Burial Isle, level 9 almost 10 and I need a bit of a break. Like someone else said, I'm RPG'd out been a while since I played such a long game. And the combat can be gruelling.

 

I like the mega-dungeon, the levels just needed to be bigger. don't know what the whining is about.

[Galaen]

I took a small break over the weekend, but only because I moved to a new house and my computer wa packed away. I nearly died from exposure to this weird thing called sunlight.

[perilisk]

I stopped playing too*. But I might pick it back up later.

 

 

 

*After killing the final boss.

[GrinningReaper659]

really?  am certain there is ways to get too much rep with a faction via a couple o' the tasks and side quests, but the faction leaders made it kinda clear to us that if we accepted Quest X, it would anger the other factions.  do a particular quest on entering defiance bay and side against dommel's could result in such a quirky result, but that still leaves you with two options... and the very reasonable animosity o' the family members o' the person you killed.  such a choice also not actual prevent you from doing multiple dommel quests.

 

Not sure what you're talking about here to be honest. I was never able to do any quests for them, which does make sense. My first interaction involved murder in Dyrford, and then foiling a burglary plot, going to their estate following that resulted in the choice between attacking everyone or leaving. Later (after further cementing my fate through the defense of a certain merchant) I did inquire with them about the hearing (for science) and the response implied that the foiled burglary is what prevented the possibility, but who knows. So, I'm not sure which quests you mean here.

 

 

as we noted above, there is a way that you can exclude yourself from the opportunity to align with a faction before you get warning that there will be a faction choice.  help a certain merchant in surviving an encounter with a criminal organization?  kill somebody named doemenel excludes you from joining doemenel's?  is a reasonable result that still allows you to do most doemenel side quests.  is a limited situation and you still get to choose between the other two factions... but not the crime family that you already sided against and used bloody violence to stop. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I mostly agree. I was just saying that accusing OP and others of wanting more hand-holding or insulting their reading comprehension isn't a very useful response. It's about more than the signposting for Dozens vs. Knights because you don't know the scope of your options at that point. Not a big deal, but I think the whole thing is a bit clumsy. For example, how was I to know that earning favor with one noble by further antagonizing the Domeonels when I spoiled the burglary wouldn't result in a positive of some sort by gaining myself a non-Domeonel noble ally? If they're going to limit you to three options, that should be a bit more clear I think. The Dozens vs. Knights thing is definitely signposted clearly enough, although I still think that you can't really get a clear picture of either group until it's too late.

 

Mostly I just wish the choice had ended up making more of a difference, even if the process of getting there remained the same.

[Tigranes]

The game tells you "if you take this quest, you will be with us FOREVA!" 

 

Now, let's say, at this point, you think to yourself, "I have no idea what you guys are like and I want to learn more about the other factions."

 

Isn't the obvious course of action to not take that quest for now, and go do some other stuff and try to learn more about the various factions?

 

After all, it's not hard. You can go up to the Crucibles Commander and talk to them. Their first quest & the role of the Justiciars you can see around the city is enough to show what they're like. People also refer to the Dozens often. The Doemenels are the hardest to find out more about.

 

Why in the world would you make a decision you are told is a final one, when you feel you don't have enough information, and then complain that you didn't know enough about the factions?

 

---------------

 

" For example, how was I to know that earning favor with one noble by further antagonizing the Domeonels when I spoiled the burglary wouldn't result in a positive of some sort by gaining myself a non-Domeonel noble ally? "

 

Why would you ever assume that to be the case, when you never even hear about any other noble family? That's a real stretch.

 

"Mostly I just wish the choice had ended up making more of a difference, even if the process of getting there remained the same."

 

Absolutely. It is the farcical trial sequence that is the real problem here.

[bleakcabaler]

I kinda just did. PoE is on hold, as I do other stuffand play other games.

 

The breaking point was the faction "choice" that locked me out of my perfered faction.

I don't want to play from the start again and I don't want to go further with the other 2 factions either.

After that I wasn't able to bring myself to continue playing.

 

Does aynone know if I can console cheat to get around that?

 

That's choices & consequences and this design (reputation and quests locking you out) was implemented for a reason.

[Prime-Mover]

 

not realize the full repercussions o' a choice?  am not seeing why that is bad.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

And not seeing any clear repercussions of choice isn't great either. But that's two extremes, and there's plenty of middle ground to discuss. The important thing is simply that the player to some extent can gauge how his/her actions affect the world. If it seems too random, it becomes difficult to care about the choice at all. I got lumped in with a faction that didn't fit my character at all, and it felt forced, rather than a deliberate choice based on my RP. And if I want the story to progress, I felt I had to make some choices and concessions that didn't fit with my RP so far at all, because now I was forced down this road. And that's ok I guess in principle, but the result was that I just didn't care. And in the end it doesn't matter anyway, which just made me care even less.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Prime-Mover

[Gromnir]

as an aside, the lack o' warning complaints is far too familiar.  is any number o' games where the player gets a warning regarding an inability to return to the current location.  player gets told that once we leave Flambekistan, we may not be able to return, so player should finish up any important business before leaving. nevertheless, is always a few folks who do not take such warnings serious.

 

and for reaper, so you killed crime family agents in a village and a family scion in defiance AND foiled a burglary plot involving the same folks... so you had 3 doemenel quests/tasks at that point.  how many more did you wish?  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gilker]

i took the crucible knights faction and not really noticed that i couldn't do the other factions quest later. i might have missed something, like many, many, MANY players out there. there is definitely something wrong with the factions choice. it's not that big deal for me either.

 

i never entered the doemenel house and i don't think i did anything against them before i was forced to join the crucible, so i was suprised to not be able to speak to their boss.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Gilker

[Nonek]

Unfortunately I ran out of steam after the end of act II, I was a little disappointed to have the same situation that ruined the trial in NWN2 happen again. I will probably return to the game after the first or second expansion hits. I never had a problem navigating the factions in Defiance Bay as it was written in simple black and white, and let's face it, a familiar enough situation in games.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Nonek