Why does the origin of the Gods matter? (Ending Spoilers)

[Katarack21]

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

The Engwithan's clearly thought so, bit Iovara shows that not everybody agreed with that. That's the very problem with the robot council controlling the world; it's the Engwithan idea of what is right and proper for a society, and everything else be damned.

[archangel979]

But, but awakening is awesome! Just think of all those cringy atheists huffing and puffing for whole game, just to finally be able to learn the glorious Truth! Who cares about fine print and details, Atheism wins!

No Agnostics win. The game shows again and again humans need to believe in something or chaos reigns. That is why the these Gods were made. Eder even goes back to worship even after knowing the truth. Edited April 28, 2015 by archangel979

[Peanuckle]

 

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

The Engwithan's clearly thought so, bit Iovara shows that not everybody agreed with that. That's the very problem with the robot council controlling the world; it's the Engwithan idea of what is right and proper for a society, and everything else be damned.

 

Iovara came after, IIRC. She didn't see what the world was like without the gods.

 

The entirety of the Engwithan people did this. Think of how hard it is to convince a society of anything. This would be like 100% of America voting for one party. Except they're electing to commit mass suicide. The state of the world had to be absolutely horrendous for them to even consider it.

 

People will always argue about things after the fact, enjoying the benefits of hindsight and the naivety of not having lived through it. I think the fact that the most advanced culture in the world unanimously agreed to kill themselves and create gods means that we ought to seriously consider that Thaos might have had a legitimate point.

[transfett]

That gods have been created does not pose a real difference in itself. they are unimaginably powerful without a doubt.

It is when people realize that 'a god' is a machine and you can bend this machine over your knees and open it up with a screwdriver.

This puts the pantheon way below humans. Down to a point where every Earl of five trees thinks he can reign superior over the world.

 

Now imagine a mob clubbing each other over a gun with infinite ammo.

[Katarack21]

 

 

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

The Engwithan's clearly thought so, bit Iovara shows that not everybody agreed with that. That's the very problem with the robot council controlling the world; it's the Engwithan idea of what is right and proper for a society, and everything else be damned.

 

Iovara came after, IIRC. She didn't see what the world was like without the gods.

 

The entirety of the Engwithan people did this. Think of how hard it is to convince a society of anything. This would be like 100% of America voting for one party. Except they're electing to commit mass suicide. The state of the world had to be absolutely horrendous for them to even consider it.

No, the Engwithans had to THINK it was. There have been real-world societies in the past that decided every body else was evil and they needed to conquer/destroy the entirety of the rest of the world to make it less of a hell-hole, they just didn't have the ability to actually do it. I don't recall for certain whether or not their was any implication that giving up their souls to make the gods had to be a 100% voluntary act from every single member of the society; but, judging by what Thaos has been up to with the machines in the modern world, it appears exactly the opposite, ie the machines can do their thing and rip your soul out regardless of what you think or want, indeed without you even knowning they exist. What I'm saying here is that we know that the Engwithans, as a whole, died to make the gods; do we know for certain that every single Engwithan was okay with that?

 

If you judge the state of the real world by what the Pope thought of it in 1120, you'd come to the same kind of conclusion. My point is that we don't actually know what the world was like; we have one picture of it from a group that was clearly not unbiased, and the robot's they made have been continuing that perspective for two thousand years.

[archangel979]

Hmm, I don't remember Biawacs true nature explained. Could it have been one of the Gods taking souls to power themselves?

Edited April 28, 2015 by archangel979

[Mvin]

But it does matter that the gods are man-made. It's the difference between an universe that has a natural order and one that has not. People look for divine beings in order to find some sort of absolute moral guidance, and though Eora's gods superficially satisfy that need, their guidance is anything but absolute. They personas are as partial as their creators and their values are merely a fallible attempt to bring order to world whose only inherent truth is chaos.

 

In essence, realizing that the gods are artificial equals realizing that there is no moral authority greater than man itself. It equals realizing that even though there may be beings more powerful, they have no higher claim to "being right" as you or the next person. They are on the same level. The only level there is. I imagine that knowledge may very well make a difference to the outlook of many people.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Mvin

[rjshae]

Yup. Another perspective would be to compare the perceived difference between the ancient religions such as Chrisitanity and a newly invented religion such as Scientology. The former has acquired its moral authority over centuries of cultural indoctrination; the latter was the recent creation of a science fiction writer. Which do you think holds a stronger sway among the people (Hollywood notwithstanding)?

Edited April 28, 2015 by rjshae

[Yonjuro]

 

So if the gods are real, have real power to bestow boons and dish out punishment and cannot be harmed by mortals, does it matter that they were created by Engwithians? One way or another, they are now a force of nature that you have to reckon with - just as not believing in cold does not stop you from freezing to death, ignoring the Gods won't stop them from punishing you.

 

 

 

 I think I understand the argument you are making:

 

 In the real world there are two arguments people make in favor of religion (really three, but two valid arguments) the first is that a particular religion is true and the second is that religion as a whole is useful as a means of social control.

 

 It sounds like you are using a variation of the latter argument. You are saying that because religion is a useful means of social control and, as an added bonus, the gods in this setting can actually physically help/hurt people, there is nothing else one should desire in a religion.

 

 Is that your position?

Edited April 28, 2015 by Yonjuro

[Yonjuro]

...No, the Engwithans had to THINK it was. There have been real-world societies in the past that decided every body else was evil and they needed to conquer/destroy the entirety of the rest of the world to make it less of a hell-hole, they just didn't have the ability to actually do it. I don't recall for certain whether or not their was any implication that giving up their souls to make the gods had to be a 100% voluntary act from every single member of the society; but, judging by what Thaos has been up to with the machines in the modern world, it appears exactly the opposite, ie the machines can do their thing and rip your soul out regardless of what you think or want, indeed without you even knowning they exist. .....

 

 Yes. To underline this point, Thaos, the guy in charge, not only didn't commit suicide, he seems to be living forever.

[Peanuckle]

 

 

 

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

The Engwithan's clearly thought so, bit Iovara shows that not everybody agreed with that. That's the very problem with the robot council controlling the world; it's the Engwithan idea of what is right and proper for a society, and everything else be damned.

 

Iovara came after, IIRC. She didn't see what the world was like without the gods.

 

The entirety of the Engwithan people did this. Think of how hard it is to convince a society of anything. This would be like 100% of America voting for one party. Except they're electing to commit mass suicide. The state of the world had to be absolutely horrendous for them to even consider it.

No, the Engwithans had to THINK it was. There have been real-world societies in the past that decided every body else was evil and they needed to conquer/destroy the entirety of the rest of the world to make it less of a hell-hole, they just didn't have the ability to actually do it. I don't recall for certain whether or not their was any implication that giving up their souls to make the gods had to be a 100% voluntary act from every single member of the society; but, judging by what Thaos has been up to with the machines in the modern world, it appears exactly the opposite, ie the machines can do their thing and rip your soul out regardless of what you think or want, indeed without you even knowning they exist. What I'm saying here is that we know that the Engwithans, as a whole, died to make the gods; do we know for certain that every single Engwithan was okay with that?

 

If you judge the state of the real world by what the Pope thought of it in 1120, you'd come to the same kind of conclusion. My point is that we don't actually know what the world was like; we have one picture of it from a group that was clearly not unbiased, and the robot's they made have been continuing that perspective for two thousand years.

 

I think the machines support my point. The introduction to them (coming out of Cilant Lis) shows a group of willing cultists. Thaos has to psyche them up to give in to the device. Also, if they were capable of ripping souls from everyone, then why didn't everyone in the Dyrwood just drop dead, rather than having their children born soulless? I think it's more likely that the machines intercepted the souls, but aren't capable of taking them from unwilling persons.

 

The machine in the city (can't remember the district) would seem to contradict this, but I think it's a different sort of device. It's much larger than the others, being several stories tall, and it turned the population into zombies rather than motionless bodies. The ability to cause varying effects would be useful to Thaos.

 

Furthermore, when you read Thaos' soul after killing him, there's a scene where a vast number of people are gathered in front of the device. Thaos looks at a woman holding her child, and she nods at him. The people are there willingly dying to do this.

[Katarack21]

 

 

 

 

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

The Engwithan's clearly thought so, bit Iovara shows that not everybody agreed with that. That's the very problem with the robot council controlling the world; it's the Engwithan idea of what is right and proper for a society, and everything else be damned.

 

Iovara came after, IIRC. She didn't see what the world was like without the gods.

 

The entirety of the Engwithan people did this. Think of how hard it is to convince a society of anything. This would be like 100% of America voting for one party. Except they're electing to commit mass suicide. The state of the world had to be absolutely horrendous for them to even consider it.

No, the Engwithans had to THINK it was. There have been real-world societies in the past that decided every body else was evil and they needed to conquer/destroy the entirety of the rest of the world to make it less of a hell-hole, they just didn't have the ability to actually do it. I don't recall for certain whether or not their was any implication that giving up their souls to make the gods had to be a 100% voluntary act from every single member of the society; but, judging by what Thaos has been up to with the machines in the modern world, it appears exactly the opposite, ie the machines can do their thing and rip your soul out regardless of what you think or want, indeed without you even knowning they exist. What I'm saying here is that we know that the Engwithans, as a whole, died to make the gods; do we know for certain that every single Engwithan was okay with that?

 

If you judge the state of the real world by what the Pope thought of it in 1120, you'd come to the same kind of conclusion. My point is that we don't actually know what the world was like; we have one picture of it from a group that was clearly not unbiased, and the robot's they made have been continuing that perspective for two thousand years.

 

I think the machines support my point. The introduction to them (coming out of Cilant Lis) shows a group of willing cultists. Thaos has to psyche them up to give in to the device. Also, if they were capable of ripping souls from everyone, then why didn't everyone in the Dyrwood just drop dead, rather than having their children born soulless? I think it's more likely that the machines intercepted the souls, but aren't capable of taking them from unwilling persons.

 

The machine in the city (can't remember the district) would seem to contradict this, but I think it's a different sort of device. It's much larger than the others, being several stories tall, and it turned the population into zombies rather than motionless bodies. The ability to cause varying effects would be useful to Thaos.

 

Furthermore, when you read Thaos' soul after killing him, there's a scene where a vast number of people are gathered in front of the device. Thaos looks at a woman holding her child, and she nods at him. The people are there willingly dying to do this.

 

It seemed more like the people had to be there to activate it to me. The first person to sacrifice themselves their is already dead when you arrive; that person was the source of the biawac that killed the Galfathans at the caravan sight. The second activation that we actually saw ripped the souls out of Calisca and company, in addition to the people that were actually in the ritual. You, the PC, survive and became a Watcher.

 

It seems to me the machine in Defiance Bay is the prototype; remember, it didn't just make zombies, it also held the souls of a whole bunch of people inside it, and you can absorb the power from them if you wish.

[gkathellar]

 

 

 

 

 

The Engwithan people decided, en masse, that it would be better to sacrifice their entire civilization than let the world go on as it had been.

 

I can only assume that the pre-god world was a real sh*thole.

The Engwithan's clearly thought so, bit Iovara shows that not everybody agreed with that. That's the very problem with the robot council controlling the world; it's the Engwithan idea of what is right and proper for a society, and everything else be damned.

 

Iovara came after, IIRC. She didn't see what the world was like without the gods.

 

The entirety of the Engwithan people did this. Think of how hard it is to convince a society of anything. This would be like 100% of America voting for one party. Except they're electing to commit mass suicide. The state of the world had to be absolutely horrendous for them to even consider it.

No, the Engwithans had to THINK it was. There have been real-world societies in the past that decided every body else was evil and they needed to conquer/destroy the entirety of the rest of the world to make it less of a hell-hole, they just didn't have the ability to actually do it. I don't recall for certain whether or not their was any implication that giving up their souls to make the gods had to be a 100% voluntary act from every single member of the society; but, judging by what Thaos has been up to with the machines in the modern world, it appears exactly the opposite, ie the machines can do their thing and rip your soul out regardless of what you think or want, indeed without you even knowning they exist. What I'm saying here is that we know that the Engwithans, as a whole, died to make the gods; do we know for certain that every single Engwithan was okay with that?

 

If you judge the state of the real world by what the Pope thought of it in 1120, you'd come to the same kind of conclusion. My point is that we don't actually know what the world was like; we have one picture of it from a group that was clearly not unbiased, and the robot's they made have been continuing that perspective for two thousand years.

 

I think the machines support my point. The introduction to them (coming out of Cilant Lis) shows a group of willing cultists. Thaos has to psyche them up to give in to the device. Also, if they were capable of ripping souls from everyone, then why didn't everyone in the Dyrwood just drop dead, rather than having their children born soulless? I think it's more likely that the machines intercepted the souls, but aren't capable of taking them from unwilling persons.

 

The machine in the city (can't remember the district) would seem to contradict this, but I think it's a different sort of device. It's much larger than the others, being several stories tall, and it turned the population into zombies rather than motionless bodies. The ability to cause varying effects would be useful to Thaos.

 

Furthermore, when you read Thaos' soul after killing him, there's a scene where a vast number of people are gathered in front of the device. Thaos looks at a woman holding her child, and she nods at him. The people are there willingly dying to do this.

 

It seemed more like the people had to be there to activate it to me. The first person to sacrifice themselves their is already dead when you arrive; that person was the source of the biawac that killed the Galfathans at the caravan sight. The second activation that we actually saw ripped the souls out of Calisca and company, in addition to the people that were actually in the ritual. You, the PC, survive and became a Watcher.

 

It seems to me the machine in Defiance Bay is the prototype; remember, it didn't just make zombies, it also held the souls of a whole bunch of people inside it, and you can absorb the power from them if you wish.

 

It's explicitly stated that the Heritage Hill machine is different from the other ones

 

That said, yeah, the Biawac seems to just be the initial activation pulse. It's funny, but Osrya was apparently right about the cause of the legacy - it's a subtle external effect that causes the souls of the newly born to be ... dislocated, I guess you could say?

[falchen]

This bothered me a bit, the actual dilema the game presents is about the gods being man made/where they come from, and asking whether they should be worshiped or if they are even necesarry... all of which are pretty interesting things to ponder... Yet the text presents this as the question of whether they are real or not, which just isn't the same thing and actually distracts from the substance of it all.

 

Like at the climax of the plot you can try to make Thaos admit that they aren't real... which is dumb because they clearly are, I just spoke to a bunch of them less than an hour ago. Like I don't know what they would consider to be real gods, but powerfull entities representing a set of ideals with real influence in the world and over mortals seem to fit the bill, regardless how they came to be. 

 

On the flipside of this, I would still be totally down with overthrowing them even if they had existed since forever rather than created x years ago. We know gods can die not because of their origin but because kith already killed one, so people would know it is posible regardless of if the "secret" comes out. Like the gods being "real" whatever the definition of that would be still wouldn't give them moral authority or the right to screw with people in my view.

Edited April 29, 2015 by falchen

[gkathellar]

This bothered me a bit, the actual dilema the game presents is about the gods being man made/where they come from, and asking whether they should be worshiped or if they are even necesarry... all of which are pretty interesting things to ponder... Yet the text presents this as the question of whether they are real or not, which just isn't the same thing and actually distracts from the substance of it all.

 

It hinges on what the word is being applied to. In general, whenever somebody says "the gods aren't real" in PoE, what they actually mean is, "they aren't real gods." Which is a pretty significant semantics error, but I guess a sort of understandable one? Although it still comes down to your definition of the word "god."

 

 

On the flipside of this, I would still be totally down with overthrowing them even if they had existed since forever rather than created x years ago. We know gods can die not because of their origin but because kith already killed one, so people would know it is posible regardless of if the "secret" comes out. Like the gods being "real" whatever the definition of that would be still wouldn't give them moral authority or the right to screw with people in my view.

 

Voltaire said, "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." Clearly, one can suppose just the opposite - if god did exist, it would be necessary to kill him.

[Katarack21]

 

 

Like at the climax of the plot you can try to make Thaos admit that they aren't real... which is dumb because they clearly are, I just spoke to a bunch of them less than an hour ago. Like I don't know what they would consider to be real gods, but powerfull entities representing a set of ideals with real influence in the world and over mortals seem to fit the bill, regardless how they came to be. 

 

That's exactly it, though! Their not "gods", they're just "powerful entities". They're constructs, they're soul-robots. They are nothing more than the ideals of the Engwithans given form and power by the Engwithans. They're not gods in any meaningful sense;  ie, Skaen is not the God of Violent Rebellion, he's a robot created to represent the Engwithan ideal of what violent rebellion is and should be, and given enough power to force people to follow that ideal.

[archangel979]

The story comes down to chaos vs control. The "create Gods to make people feel safer and control them better" is just what is happening in our world where religion and police states are used to promote "greater good" for the people that "cannot live without that".

[falchen]

What is a god then, what would they have to be to be considered real?

 

Curiously Dungeons and Dragon's gods of the forgotten realms are bound by rules, their power actually depends on the belief of their worshipers, they can die or be killed, and it's even possible for a mortal to become one. Most would still agree that they are real in that setting.

[Katarack21]

What is a god then, what would they have to be to be considered real?

 

Curiously Dungeons and Dragon's gods of the forgotten realms are bound by rules, their power actually depends on the belief of their worshipers, they can die or be killed, and it's even possible for a mortal to become one. Most would still agree that they are real in that setting.

To me, a god is a sentient manifestation and/or incarnation of some aspect of the universe. The PoE god's don't qualify, because they're simply constructs created by mortals to simulate exactly that, because they don't actually exist in PoE's universe.

 

To use an analogy, the PoE beings are gods in the same way that Data from Star Trek is a human being. Now, Data is a *person*, and the PoE beings are powerful sentient entities, but Data is a simulation of a human and the PoE creatures are a simulation of a god.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Katarack21

[fgalkin]

Iovara had led her own cult to spread awareness of the Gods' man-made origins, but she also admits they have real power. The two dryads also attest that the Gods are not to be trifled with. If you renege on your promise to any of the four gods, you find out for yourself just how much power they wield over the mortal realm.

 

If the Gods have real power over kith, nature and souls, what does it matter that they were man-made? The game seems to make a big deal out of this, but I don't see a practical difference. 

The philosophical distinction is important. Consider the divine right of kings in our own world. For a time, the only claim to legitmacy of rule was "there is a God, and he said I should rule." This was a legitimate justification for certain families holding power. Then, the belief was lost, and suddenly the kings of Europe had to find a different way to justify their rule, and consent of the governed became important.

 

So it is with the gods in PoE. If they are eternal and date from the birth of the world, then speaking against them is literally going against the natural order. It's a crime not just against the gods, but against the world as a whole. But if they are mere constructs of kith? They have power because they exist, and have power. They are not part of the natural order. You don't actually have to follow them if you don't want to, and that is an equally legitimate course of action. You can even fight them and kill them with animancy, if you are strong enough. Don't like Skaen's methods and think that his quiet seething hatred is slowly eating the world from within? Kill him. Don't want to leave the downtrodden without recourse? Create a new one. Create Divine Gandhi, who will resist oppression with nonviolence. That power is there, for the kith to grasp.

 

Now, you can say that Gods are actually useful. They still have their power and provide guidance, and perhaps people cannot be trusted with the power to rule themselves (a view that I'm not entirely unsympathetic to, looking at our own world), but following them suddenly becomes a CHOICE. You follow them because you think it's the right thing to do. Not because it's the only way. 

 

Have a very nice day.

-fgalkin

[gkathellar]

 

 

If they are eternal and date from the birth of the world, then speaking against them is literally going against the natural order. It's a crime not just against the gods, but against the world as a whole.

This is quite a claim to be making without any justification.

 

Curiously Dungeons and Dragon's gods

Gods in D&D are super-complicated, but the short version is that they're sentient agglomerations of concepts and beliefs, and their class of entity has existed nearly as long as the Planes. More important for practical purposes, they're about as far up the totem pole as you can go before the entities you're dealing with are simply incomprehensible.

[Anonymous1924]

The entirety of the Engwithan people did this. Think of how hard it is to convince a society of anything. This would be like 100% of America voting for one party. Except they're electing to commit mass suicide. The state of the world had to be absolutely horrendous for them to even consider it.

Not necessarily. Perhaps they just sought some kind of deeper purpose so badly and sought to bring some order to the "soul realm". Souls just cycle around, moving aimlessly through the world over thousands and thousands of cycles. At some point, an advanced society (high-tech animancy, philosophy etc) either got tired of it or discovered something that upset them too much. Perhaps they thought that it was worth it to sacrifice themselves to make a world in which souls would have a "purpose", an ideal that gives them direction. Thaos also gains a purpose - his entire existence is dedicated to maintaining this system.

 

Not all analogies with the real world are very useful here because there are significant differences. In PoE souls exist. The Wheel exists. Awakenings exist. Advanced animancy and other advanced technologies of the Engwithans exist. It is concievable that the Engwithans had enough insight into their souls to make their decision an informed and rational one. The problem with this is that there are souls like Iovara (who either don't think there's anything troubling with the Engwithan findings or who, perhaps, do not know the full nature of their findings) on whom this is imposed.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Anonymous1924

[Minervin]

I agree with Concordance: it does not matter.

 

Does it matter, if a god is an ancient wizard who became "godlike" by a ritual, some god's testicles were cut off and by throwing them into the sea a new goddess was born (actual ancient story) or that they are made by an ancient civilisation? No it does not. That the game makes a big deal out of it only makes sense in the light that Thaos is willing to kill for it.

 

In a polytheistic pantheon absoluteness makes no sense, different to Christianity. So worshipping a god is more a contract with that god (I worship you, therefore you are helping me). Since the gods are actually powerful that still makes sense even tho they have been manufactured. I mean non of their teachings can be very influential for a society as a whole on the basis that they are divine teachings, for there is always a god in opposition you can rather pick whos teachings are divine as well.

 

I always picked the dialogue option that Iovara as well as Thaos motives are rather pointless. Which makes it even more serious to stop him to kill for it. However the game defiantly takes this options more in the sense of "humans do human-stuff anyway, with or without the gods", but I ignored that flavour.

[Minervin]

Imagine the following dialogue option:

 

PC: Thaos, since your people decided to manufacture a polytheistic pantheon, you have already accomplished your task 1000 years ago by making the other nation forget their original gods. You don't have to keep the manufacture a secret, since in a polytheistic religion nobody cares.

 

Thaos: No! The world still needs me! I am not ready for retirement!

 

*Thaos attacks you*

[Tigranes]

Haven't read the last page or so, but uh, "polytheistic pantheon = people don't care if their gods are manufactured"? 

 

Ummm. Just about every polytheistic religion in human history will disagree with you. And then probably set you on fire.

 

(To be precise, the Greeks might have had no problem with a new Goddess jumping out of her dad's skull, but they would have a big problem if someone came around and revealed that the Olympians were actually created by the sacrifice of Mycenaeans thousands of years ago, as opposed to being in an unbroken lineage through Gaea to the Origin of the World.)