RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

This forum is so full of fan boys that just won't accept any critique.

 

Bullsh1t. Fresh from a bovine arse. This forum is full of people more than happy to call Obsidian out without behaving like a spoilt troll in the middle of an ADHD tantrum.

 

 

This game is average and any criticism you share you get a response like your own.

 

No merit.

 

Just a smooth internet "like my post" gibberish.

[Namutree]

 

 

This forum is so full of fan boys that just won't accept any critique.

 

Bullsh1t. Fresh from a bovine arse. This forum is full of people more than happy to call Obsidian out without behaving like a spoilt troll in the middle of an ADHD tantrum.

 

 

This game is average and any criticism you share you get a response like your own.

 

No merit.

 

Just a smooth internet "like my post" gibberish.

 

I'm critical of PoE all the time. I don't see people not accepting it.

[Elerond]

This forum is so full of fan boys that just won't accept any critique.

 

 

Critique of product has quite little matter for people that already like product in form it is and when somebody wants to change product that they like they usually are very conservative towards those propositions. So if it matter to you what those who like product thinks about critique you need to do better job in convincing them that changes proposed would make product better for them. 

[Luckmann]

There's a lot of criticism on the forum. Yes, there are some fanboys that just won't let up, even in the face of insurmountable evidence on certain points, not even giving an inch, and yes, there is the regular autism crew that you see on all forums, but when it comes to hiveminding, the PoE forum is actually refreshingly free, especially when it comes to the people that participate more than average.

There's actually so much criticism on the forum that I sometimes worry that it's becoming one-sided, or depressive, which is why I often point out that I still like the game, and almost feel like I need to make excuses to come with additional critique. Or that I fear that certain developers (and I'm not talking specifically about the ones like Sawyer) may feel that they don't want to go here anymore.

Most of it is because we genuinely care about the game on some level or another. When it comes to criticism vs. fanboyism, look at this thread, I think it's actually the perfect example. Most reasonable people have agreed that many of the conclusions raised in the review are valid, they have simply expressed a distaste for how it was presented, or the manner in which those conclusions were raised (which yes, matters a lot).

It's a s**t review. We know it's a s**t review. But we can still discuss it's points and merits - or the clear lack thereof - like thinking people.

It's a good game. I wouldn't go so far as to call it average. I think it has amazing potential. But it still has issues, and those issues are explored in depth as a matter of routine at the forums by now, and the forum certainly isn't full of fanboys. I enjoy the level we keep overall, honestly.

[majestic]

This game is average and any criticism you share you get a response like your own.

 

No merit.

 

Just a smooth internet "like my post" gibberish.

 

 

Uh-huh. U so awsmoe d00d.

 

Pro-tip d00d, liek, haed oevr to teh Pliars of Etnerity reddit and see what a real Pillars of Eternity circlejerk looks like.

[Sensuki]

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Sensuki

[majestic]

Riker as captain. That would be awesome beyond belief.

It would've been, wouldn't it? Q_Q

 

And Riker as both Captain and First Officer, now all they'd have to get rid of was Mr. Dong-Faced Jar-Jar and the show could actually have been insanely amazing.

 

 

I'd not be so sure, sadly. For me the biggest problems of Voyager came from the creative crew not knowing what they want from characters. Janeway wasn't the only problem, just the one that was the most visible because she got to call the shots as captain. They had to write Kes out because they wrote her in a corner she could not come out of, they kept Neelix in to do kid stories (well, at least Naomi didn't save Voyager every week, but she sure did grow quickly. Good they made her half-alien to explain it, probably an oversight ) and Chakotay starts dating Seven because... because. So Seven can have her romance arc to show off how much she's... eh, no, I need to stop. Heh.

 

Needless to say it's far more likely that they would have simply messed up Riker as a character instead of making the show awesome. So it's probably best that they had no established character (Tom Paris doesn't count, it was just one TNG episode and he's just a suspiciously similar substitue after all).

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The game is quite easy on hard and the only enjoyment I'm getting out of playing this is doing unconventional and sometimes stupid things in encounters just to mix it up. And it's during these encounters that I'm finding anomalous, bewildering and at times interesting patterns in the A.I.. When I arrived at Twin Elms, I was already halfway through level 11 and hit the cap not long after that. I'm slowly trudging my way through Act 3 in Twin Elms, but the side quests are pretty meh. And I can't recall the last time Durance or GM had something to say. The companions have been pretty quiet.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Guest BugsVendor]

Just to elaborate a little bit further about some points from the review.

 

Take as an example the "cutscenes" parts. It is a great metaphor of an illusion of actual choice in this game. There is a safe mechanism for everything.

 

"cutsceen items" like the hook and rope and so on. They kill the whole idea of roleplaying. You don'd have a rouge in your team? Or some other stealthy sneaky athletic guy - you should not be able to climb the vines to get the 1st floor of the mansion with a diamond in it. It is the same for every single example. The games just let's you know from the very beginning that no matter what you do you can still achieve everything.

 

I'm sure there are counter examples but for the most part you just keep those items in your back pack and every time you encounter one of those situation you get out of jail card. Boring.

 

It is the same with dialogues where there is one better option but it doesn't matter whether it's the intelligence perception or whatever else. There is something for everyone with the same or near the same result.

Edited April 25, 2015 by BugsVendor

[Yellow Rabbit]

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

*sigh*

 

I don't like --> mediocre. You of all people...

 

Let's say it has RTwP combat designed below average level on all accounts and call it a day without jumping to conclusions about overall quality of the game? I don't want to sound ungrateful for all your really hard work and passion you poured into the beta, but you decided you don't like the game long before it was done.

[View619]

 

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

*sigh*

 

I don't like --> mediocre. You of all people...

 

Let's say it has RTwP combat designed below average level on all accounts and call it a day without jumping to conclusions about overall quality of the game? I don't want to sound ungrateful for all your really hard work and passion you poured into the beta, but you decided you don't like the game long before it was done.

 

 

Why do we need to convince people that they actually like POE when they have said (and explained) that they don't? It's just one game and people are going to dislike it, life goes on.

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion! 

[majestic]

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion! 

 

 

So, do you think GRRM will release The Winds of Winter before season 6 of the show rolls around? If you watch the show and read the books, what would you do then, get yourself spoiled (GRRM did tell the showrunners how it is supposed to end) or ignore it?   

 

Hehe.

[Yellow Rabbit]

Why do we need to convince people that they actually like POE when they have said (and explained) that they don't? It's just one game and people are going to dislike it, life goes on.

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion!

I'm not sure such thing is even possible I mean, convincing people not liking something that they actually like it or should like it.

 

I just asked if we can stop calling the thing a **** just because we don't like it since tends to piss off people who actually liked it. It'd do wonders to cure some butthurted around here. Or do you think we need more butthurt?

 

Btw, this applies to the opposite as well, e.g. fanboying and the like.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Yellow Rabbit

[Elerond]

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion! 

 

 

Why they both become so boring at end that you regret that you started to watch them in first place, but you must praise them or you lose your cool nerd hat or something.

 

For real I liked Star Trek Original Series somewhat, but it was far from my favorite, Next Generation was full of ups and downs and Beginning of Deep Space Nine was just awful and I stopped watching Star Trek tv-shows entirely after 4 episodes of it (So I haven't ever watched Voyager). I liked quite lot of Game of Thrones first season, but mostly because I had not seen high production fantasy series in TV for long time, but in middle point of second season I just could not any more bear its plot and extensive focus on gore that don't look or feel realistic to me. For the books I liked story quite lot, but I started to lose my interest in end of fourth and wholly lose it about mid point of fifth.

[View619]

 

Why do we need to convince people that they actually like POE when they have said (and explained) that they don't? It's just one game and people are going to dislike it, life goes on.

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion!

I'm not sure such thing is even possible I mean, convincing people not liking something that they actually like it or should like it.

 

I just asked if we can stop calling the thing a **** just because we don't like it since tends to piss off people who actually liked it. It'd do wonders to cure some butthurted around here. Or do you think we need more butthurt?

 

Btw, this applies to the opposite as well, e.g. fanboying and the like.

 

 

Well, it's a matter of perspective really. If somebody is expecting POE to be as good as or surpass BG2, but then find many inferior and flawed aspects when compared it's not really surprising that they'll say it is ****. I just wish people would stop getting worked up over the opinions of others, as if that somehow makes the game worse for them, but Internet?

 

Anybody getting butt-hurt over the Codex review, for example, just needs thicker skin. There will be many vocal people who think POE is awful, either ignore them or take the good points out of their arguments and discuss them with the hopes that future patches/expansions will be aimed at resolving some of the issues.

 

 

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion! 

 

 

So, do you think GRRM will release The Winds of Winter before season 6 of the show rolls around? If you watch the show and read the books, what would you do then, get yourself spoiled (GRRM did tell the showrunners how it is supposed to end) or ignore it? 

 

Hehe.

 

 

Well, I do like watching the show just to see how some key events from the books play out (love some of the character designs, too). With GRRM's timeline though, I'll have to ignore the series starting next year. I'm convinced that there's no way the series can do justice to excitement I have for The Winds of Winter.

 

It sounds like he could finish TWoW either late 2015 or early 2016 right now, but there's no way A Dream of Spring is hitting shelves before season 7.

 

@Elerond

 

I like Star Trek (TNG & DS9) and A Song of Ice and Fire (books), and wanted to be a part of the discussion.

A Feast for Crows was a slow point in the books, for sure. Regarding Star Trek, I actually liked DS9; really slow beginning but it picks up. I'm afraid I got to TOS pretty late, I couldn't get through Season 2 due to the corny planet settings (like Mobster World).

Edited April 25, 2015 by View619

[majestic]

I'm beginning to wonder if we aren't in for a good deal of disappointment. A Dance With Dragons wasn't nearly as bad as thought it was the first time I finished reading it, but after six years of hyping myself it was probably impossible to meet my own expectations. Stupid expectations.

 

Although maybe that is GRRM's tactic. He just dallies around for so long that nobody expects the books and suddenly wham, we get them and are happy enough getting them. Hah, George, I'm onto you, you're found out.

Edited April 25, 2015 by majestic

[View619]

I'm beginning to wonder if we aren't in for a good deal of disappointment. A Dance With Dragons wasn't nearly as bad as thought it was the first time I finished reading it, but after six years of hyping myself it was probably impossible to meet my own expectations. Stupid expectations.

 

Although maybe that is GRRM's tactic. He just dallies around for so long that nobody expects the books and suddenly wham, we get them and are happy enough getting them. Hah, George, I'm onto you, you're found out.

 

Ha, that would make sense. Make them wait and (hopefully) forget about it for a bit, then boom! Happiness and rave reviews all around.

[Ohioastro]

 

 

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

*sigh*

 

I don't like --> mediocre. You of all people...

 

Let's say it has RTwP combat designed below average level on all accounts and call it a day without jumping to conclusions about overall quality of the game? I don't want to sound ungrateful for all your really hard work and passion you poured into the beta, but you decided you don't like the game long before it was done.

 

 

Why do we need to convince people that they actually like POE when they have said (and explained) that they don't? It's just one game and people are going to dislike it, life goes on.

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion! 

 

 

 

Conversely, why do people feel that coming to a message board dedicated to fans of a game and telling them that a game they enjoyed is complete &(($ and the worst game ever made will accomplish anything positive?

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

*sigh*

 

I don't like --> mediocre. You of all people...

 

Let's say it has RTwP combat designed below average level on all accounts and call it a day without jumping to conclusions about overall quality of the game? I don't want to sound ungrateful for all your really hard work and passion you poured into the beta, but you decided you don't like the game long before it was done.

 

 

Why do we need to convince people that they actually like POE when they have said (and explained) that they don't? It's just one game and people are going to dislike it, life goes on.

 

Enough about POE, let's get back to Star Trek and Song of Ice and Fire discussion! 

 

 

 

Conversely, why do people feel that coming to a message board dedicated to fans of a game and telling them that a game they enjoyed is complete &(($ and the worst game ever made will accomplish anything positive?

 

 

Because the message board is not dedicated to fans of the game, but to the game itself? If the board was only for "fans" (Read: complete and utter fanboys that never contributed constructively to anything in their entire lives) it would be a tireless and tiresome circle-jerk. It is the worst possible state for a forum to be in.

[Gromnir]

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

can't disagree more.  we know you got issues with combat mechanics, but that is not the entirety o' poe gameplay.  you have already conceded that you appreciated more than a couple quests and encounters in poe, so, am thinking you are possibly having a fundamental misunderstanding o' the nature o' gameplay in a crpg such as poe, or you misspoke.  reactivity to chosen character development choices and c&c in general is as much gameplay as is attack resolution maths, perhaps more so... damn that opinion stuff. compared to the ie games as a whole, poe has much better reactivity/c&c.  compared to most crpgs poe does such stuff better.  so, 'bove average?  yeah.

 

am not gonna convince you that you are wrong about poe combat mechanics.  heck, is more than a few changes we would like to see made to combat mechanics and encounter design. in fact, we believe that too often the mechanics is being blamed when more varied or intelligent encounter design would be a more compelling and significant solution to most combat issues people have with the game.  the mechanics is already offering more complex and challenging combats than any ie D&D game that had similar level progression. 

 

regardless, sensuki doesn't get crpg gameplay... or simple overstated.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

ps an illustration to help with the distinction 'tween the relative importance o' mechanics and encounter design.  bg and bg2 shared the same core combat mechanics.  yup, balance changes such as nerfing grandmastery and expanding weapon proficiency lists were added to bg2, but bg and bg2 were having same core mechanics. unfortunately, in bg, the combats were all easily resolved with a single tactic.  bg combat were suffering that endemic monotony you were perhaps misattributing to skaen temple area.  bg2 changed combat.  bg2 combat were often just as monotonous as were bg, but there were enough exceptional encounters to make us forget the terribad.  we couldn't use a single tactic in bg2 as we had in bg, in spite o' sameness o' core mechanics.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Gromnir

[Wintersong]

For real I liked Star Trek Original Series somewhat, but it was far from my favorite, Next Generation was full of ups and downs and Beginning of Deep Space Nine was just awful and I stopped watching Star Trek tv-shows entirely after 4 episodes of it (So I haven't ever watched Voyager).

I must say that Voyager is my favourite of all ST series. It has its weak points too but I found it rather enjoyable compared to stuff like DS9. Or Enterprise.

 

I do prefer Stargate though. Any of it non cartoon incarnations. Where is the reboot???? Still too soon? Just make sure it's not like the "I want to be Star Wars" reboot of Star Trek...

 

 

 

Er... and PoE is not mediocre. Because I say so. There. Not totally off-topic.

[illathid]

 

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

can't disagree more.  we know you got issues with combat mechanics, but that is not the entirety o' poe gameplay.  you have already conceded that you appreciated more than a couple quests and encounters in poe, so, am thinking you are possibly having a fundamental misunderstanding o' the nature o' gameplay in a crpg such as poe, or you misspoke.  reactivity to chosen character development choices and c&c in general is as much gameplay as is attack resolution maths, perhaps more so... damn that opinion stuff. compared to the ie games as a whole, poe has much better reactivity/c&c.  compared to most crpgs poe does such stuff better.  so, 'bove average?  yeah.

 

am not gonna convince you that you are wrong about poe combat mechanics.  heck, is more than a few changes we would like to see made to combat mechanics and encounter design. in fact, we believe that too often the mechanics is being blamed when more varied or intelligent encounter design would be a more compelling and significant solution to most combat issues people have with the game.  the mechanics is already offering more complex and challenging combats than any ie D&D game that had similar level progression. 

 

regardless, sensuki doesn't get crpg gameplay... or simple overstated.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

 

 

Well from what I've read of Sensuki's comments, combat is the only gameplay that really matters to him. As he says himself, he doesn't "LARP" [sic]. 

Edited April 25, 2015 by illathid

[Gromnir]

 

 

It's a (polished) mediocre game that I don't like. The above average bits are non-gameplay related.

 

The best thing about it is clearly the art. However I do enjoy playing games more than looking at them.

can't disagree more.  we know you got issues with combat mechanics, but that is not the entirety o' poe gameplay.  you have already conceded that you appreciated more than a couple quests and encounters in poe, so, am thinking you are possibly having a fundamental misunderstanding o' the nature o' gameplay in a crpg such as poe, or you misspoke.  reactivity to chosen character development choices and c&c in general is as much gameplay as is attack resolution maths, perhaps more so... damn that opinion stuff. compared to the ie games as a whole, poe has much better reactivity/c&c.  compared to most crpgs poe does such stuff better.  so, 'bove average?  yeah.

 

am not gonna convince you that you are wrong about poe combat mechanics.  heck, is more than a few changes we would like to see made to combat mechanics and encounter design. in fact, we believe that too often the mechanics is being blamed when more varied or intelligent encounter design would be a more compelling and significant solution to most combat issues people have with the game.  the mechanics is already offering more complex and challenging combats than any ie D&D game that had similar level progression. 

 

regardless, sensuki doesn't get crpg gameplay... or simple overstated.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

 

 

Well from what I've read of Sensuki's comments, combat is the only gameplay that really matters to him. As he says himself, he doesn't "LARP" [sic]. 

 

you are probable correct, but poe is a cRPg.  those non-combat aspects o' gameplay are as much a part o' the game as is combat.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Luckmann]

Most of the following response contains minor spoilers, so I'll spoiler-tag it. It is nothing super-major, though.
 

[...] reactivity to chosen character development choices and c&c in general is as much gameplay as is attack resolution maths, [...]

 
I'm not disagreeing with Sensuki, but I do consider your point valid; but on the other hand, I'm by far more of a fluffmuppet than Sensuki, so whatever. I also think I like the game more than Sensuki, but I also wasn't as invested in it, so.. mileage may vary. However...

Arguing over reactivity to chosen character development choices and choices & consequences in general in PoE is.. well, it's not particularly responsive in those regards, either. Now, the perception as to whether it is or not will probably vary greatly, depending on whether you're a Drifter Male Human Druid from Rauatai, or a Merchant Female Orlan Cipher from The White That Wends, but overall.. it's not every reactive at all.

What's worse, much of the reactivity in the game is.. odd, to say the least, and often feels more like bugs than intended gameplay. Like how I can get locked out of cooperating with the Doemenels before I've even met any of them or even talked to The Dozen or The Crucible Knights. Or how siding with Raedric will lock you out of all meaningful content in the entirety of Raedric's Hold.

Now, there are some really cool places with really good reactivity; notably, running into Wirtan in Act 2 Magran's Fork, if you kicked him out of Gilded Vale after the Temple of Eothas, or certain other parts whether you've learned Ancient Engwithan Runes/Language yet or not.

But overall, arguing character development choices and reactivity over system/mechanics and combat does not do PoE any real service, for the most part.

 

[Qorach]

I agree with reviewer that Blood Legacy quest resolution felt ideologically forced. I'd kindly ask devs to add ability to side with Lord Harond completely.