Are Paladins really that bad?

[ErlKing]

 

 

Has anyone tried a dual wielding Paladin or a Paladin with Two-Handed weapons? I am guessing will be much better than sword and shield pally....

 

At one point I thought about rolling a high perception paladin specialising in two handed morning stars, my plan was to become the lord of interrupts.....but now with so much negative feedback about overall pally performance, I have kind of given up on it.

Yeah I tried a two-handed Pally... but that shield.... +5 all Defenses on the whole party is just way to good to pass up

 

Give that shield to your fighter or cleric or chanter or druid?

 

"Paladin hands only"

[Enexemander]

The shield is nice, but it's only a buckler so the tradeoff is a decent chunk of deflection (and reflex if you take the talent) off of your main tank to buff your party. Overall, probably worth it but the tradeoff is still there.

 

I have a party with a Bleak Walker dps paladin (PC) and Pall as a tank. At the time, I didn't know that Faith did not work on NPCs (is this a bug? It should be) so Pall isn't everything she should be as a tank.

 

With this setup, I don't miss having a priest and take the druid NPC instead. It works because I've built the party around the short aoe distance of the auras. I have 2 front row fighters, 2 midrange fighters, and 2 backliners. That said, at level 9 both auras could be replaced by a single priest, as their level 1 spells go to per encounter instead of per rest.

[Kaigen42]

The shield is nice, but it's only a buckler so the tradeoff is a decent chunk of deflection (and reflex if you take the talent) off of your main tank to buff your party. Overall, probably worth it but the tradeoff is still there.

Not that much of a tradeoff, actually. The +5 to all defenses includes deflection, making the shield effectively +13, only 3 points behind a large shield, and you can enchant it to be fine/exceptional/superb in order to keep up high quality shields. Plus, as a small shield, it doesn't have an accuracy penalty, which is nice if you're leveraging Flames of Devotion.

 

Personally, I really like Lay on Hands. Even with minimal Might, the damage healed is still significant for the first five or six levels, and a high Intellect gives you more ticks of healing to make up for the lower per tick value. In that stage of the game, even my Fighter tank sometimes encounters levels of hate that overwhelm his defenses and endurance, so the extra bump is handy to keep people alive. I like playing a Shieldbearer and taking the Shielding Touch talent to add the deflection bonus for even more damage mitigation.

[cavemandiary]

 

The shield is nice, but it's only a buckler so the tradeoff is a decent chunk of deflection (and reflex if you take the talent) off of your main tank to buff your party. Overall, probably worth it but the tradeoff is still there.

Not that much of a tradeoff, actually. The +5 to all defenses includes deflection, making the shield effectively +13, only 3 points behind a large shield, and you can enchant it to be fine/exceptional/superb in order to keep up high quality shields. Plus, as a small shield, it doesn't have an accuracy penalty, which is nice if you're leveraging Flames of Devotion.

 

Personally, I really like Lay on Hands. Even with minimal Might, the damage healed is still significant for the first five or six levels, and a high Intellect gives you more ticks of healing to make up for the lower per tick value. In that stage of the game, even my Fighter tank sometimes encounters levels of hate that overwhelm his defenses and endurance, so the extra bump is handy to keep people alive. I like playing a Shieldbearer and taking the Shielding Touch talent to add the deflection bonus for even more damage mitigation.

 

You´re not alone. I think LOH is a solid skill as well.

 

By the way, there is a suberb shield found in the treasure pile of the adra dragon known as Little Savior, which also has Herald. I guess it´s kind of moot though, since the A.D is the toughest encounter in the game and anything after that poses no threat (even thaos is a cakewalk)

[Epsilon Rose]

the wiki is not much o' a source.

 

again, for the third time...

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

 

 "We also wanted their mechanics to be distinctive from the other classes while reinforcing their role in the world.  Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates.  This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins.  They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity."

 

you can also look for updates which identify which classes is tanky and front-liners, and the paladin ain't 'mongst those.

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?hl=front-liners

 

poe paladins is a low-maintenance support class with impressive defensive characteristics. they fill the support role different from chanters and priests, but that is their role.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/

 

euba hates repetition, but he still ain't responded to the essential question: if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support?

 

HA! Good Fun!

That might have been their goal, but it doesn't make it a good one. The paladin's chassis just isn't set up to be good at support. You have to burn to many talents to get the support abilities set up properly and the other support classes still do it better. The chanter even fills the passive aura support niche already. Paladins need to find their own niche or a niche that's worth doubling up on.

[Althernai]

I feel like if I was playing Iron Man or Path of the Damned, I might want that rez ability though.

If you mean Reviving Exhortation, then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't because it doesn't do what it says it does. It claims that it restores the character at something like 300 Endurance and in a bit of time, takes away half of that (i.e. something like 150 Endurance). What it actually does is restore the character at maximum Endurance which for any character I can think of is less than 300 and for most characters you'd ever want to use this on, is less than 150. On the other hand, it does take away exactly the numerical value of Endurance mentioned in the description (not half of what was restored) so most characters will simply drop after the duration expires and even very durable characters will be reduced to very low health.

 

It's extremely situational. The only usage I can think of is when you have a caster down who needs to cast just one fight-changing spell. Given that you shouldn't be in situations where party members are down in the first place, it's more or less worthless.

[eubatham]

Zealous Focus isn't replaceable by the Priest's Inspiring Radiance. They stack. You can't use Holy Radiance before combat either.... not unless you're not patched to 1.03 for some reason. And even though Blessing's accuracy modifier doesn't stack with Zealous Focus, its 1.1 damage modifier does. Blessing + Zealous Focus gives you 6 accuracy, 1.1x damage, and 5% hits to crits (this isn't suppressed by Dire Blessing's hits to crits either).

 

The only aura thats questionable is Zealous Endurance because its completely suppressed by Armor of Faith.

 

Interesting, thank you for that information. I also thought you couldn't use Holy Radiance out of combat anymore since the 1.03 patchnotes, but someone brought it up earlier and I thought I was therefor mistaken. Oh well, thanks again for rectifying this.

[Yosharian]

 

I feel like if I was playing Iron Man or Path of the Damned, I might want that rez ability though.

If you mean Reviving Exhortation, then I'm pretty sure you wouldn't because it doesn't do what it says it does. It claims that it restores the character at something like 300 Endurance and in a bit of time, takes away half of that (i.e. something like 150 Endurance). What it actually does is restore the character at maximum Endurance which for any character I can think of is less than 300 and for most characters you'd ever want to use this on, is less than 150. On the other hand, it does take away exactly the numerical value of Endurance mentioned in the description (not half of what was restored) so most characters will simply drop after the duration expires and even very durable characters will be reduced to very low health.

 

It's extremely situational. The only usage I can think of is when you have a caster down who needs to cast just one fight-changing spell. Given that you shouldn't be in situations where party members are down in the first place, it's more or less worthless.

 

 

Ah.

 

I worried it might work like that.

[Gromnir]

 

Zealous Focus isn't replaceable by the Priest's Inspiring Radiance. They stack. You can't use Holy Radiance before combat either.... not unless you're not patched to 1.03 for some reason. And even though Blessing's accuracy modifier doesn't stack with Zealous Focus, its 1.1 damage modifier does. Blessing + Zealous Focus gives you 6 accuracy, 1.1x damage, and 5% hits to crits (this isn't suppressed by Dire Blessing's hits to crits either).

 

The only aura thats questionable is Zealous Endurance because its completely suppressed by Armor of Faith.

 

Interesting, thank you for that information. I also thought you couldn't use Holy Radiance out of combat anymore since the 1.03 patchnotes, but someone brought it up earlier and I thought I was therefor mistaken. Oh well, thanks again for rectifying this.

 

we noted earlier about stacking of paladin aura.  is good to see you have finally come around... if belatedly so.  

 

 

the wiki is not much o' a source.

 

again, for the third time...

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

 

 "We also wanted their mechanics to be distinctive from the other classes while reinforcing their role in the world.  Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates.  This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins.  They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity."

 

you can also look for updates which identify which classes is tanky and front-liners, and the paladin ain't 'mongst those.

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?hl=front-liners

 

poe paladins is a low-maintenance support class with impressive defensive characteristics. they fill the support role different from chanters and priests, but that is their role.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/

 

euba hates repetition, but he still ain't responded to the essential question: if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support?

 

HA! Good Fun!

That might have been their goal, but it doesn't make it a good one. The paladin's chassis just isn't set up to be good at support. You have to burn to many talents to get the support abilities set up properly and the other support classes still do it better. The chanter even fills the passive aura support niche already. Paladins need to find their own niche or a niche that's worth doubling up on.

 

other support classes do it differently, not better.  depends on playstyle.  we already observed how chanters have cycling chants which mean that their buffs and debuffs fade in and out, frequently at inopportune times.  the chanter invocations are also nice, but they cannot be used at will as most paladin abilities can.  the advantages o' the paladin is exact why we dump the chanter joinable at our first opportunity 'pon reaching defiance bay.  particular for our play style, the predictability o' the paladin and its synergy o' aura with various priest spells makes it a no-brainer  to choose paladin  (aside: we will once again note that 2 chanters is a fabulous support configuration as you can layer the chants so that your "essential" chants is always active.)  most priest spells have relative short ranges, which for a squishy character is a serious disadvantage.  the paladin, on the other hand, has excellent defenses-- am not having worries when utilizing the paladin adjacent to tanks and other front-liners.  also, as has been noted ad nauseum and echoed by longknife, the paladin does not require the same degree o' micromanagement as numerous other classes.  for players, many players, who has complained o' frenetic and overwhelming combat, a paladin is a welcome party addition.

 

find a niche?  it already has one.  that being said, it is a low-maintenance niche (boring) that will not appeal to the kinda folks that typical post in these threads. you folks is not the casual poe player, yes?  even so, Gromnir would also be in favor o' adding a few more options for active abilities that we would actual wish to use.  the paladin, particular for boss battles, has wonderful debuffs and buffs, but far too often we do very little with our paladin save wait for an opponent to get to death's door so that we can activate flames o' devotion... which hopeful in turn triggers inspiring triumph or some other per-kill effect.   is an underappreciated support class, but it is boring... boring for Gromnir.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

Edited April 14, 2015 by Gromnir

[Epsilon Rose]

 

 

Zealous Focus isn't replaceable by the Priest's Inspiring Radiance. They stack. You can't use Holy Radiance before combat either.... not unless you're not patched to 1.03 for some reason. And even though Blessing's accuracy modifier doesn't stack with Zealous Focus, its 1.1 damage modifier does. Blessing + Zealous Focus gives you 6 accuracy, 1.1x damage, and 5% hits to crits (this isn't suppressed by Dire Blessing's hits to crits either).

 

The only aura thats questionable is Zealous Endurance because its completely suppressed by Armor of Faith.

 

 

Interesting, thank you for that information. I also thought you couldn't use Holy Radiance out of combat anymore since the 1.03 patchnotes, but someone brought it up earlier and I thought I was therefor mistaken. Oh well, thanks again for rectifying this.

we noted earlier about stacking of paladin aura.  is good to see you have finally come around... if belatedly so.  

 

 

the wiki is not much o' a source.

 

again, for the third time...

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

  "We also wanted their mechanics to be distinctive from the other classes while reinforcing their role in the world.  Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates.  This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins.  They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity."

 you can also look for updates which identify which classes is tanky and front-liners, and the paladin ain't 'mongst those.

  http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?hl=front-liners

 

poe paladins is a low-maintenance support class with impressive defensive characteristics. they fill the support role different from chanters and priests, but that is their role.

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/

 

euba hates repetition, but he still ain't responded to the essential question: if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support?

 HA! Good Fun!

 

That might have been their goal, but it doesn't make it a good one. The paladin's chassis just isn't set up to be good at support. You have to burn to many talents to get the support abilities set up properly and the other support classes still do it better. The chanter even fills the passive aura support niche already. Paladins need to find their own niche or a niche that's worth doubling up on.

other support classes do it differently, not better.  depends on playstyle.  we already observed how chanters have cycling chants which mean that their buffs and debuffs fade in and out, frequently at inopportune times.  the chanter invocations are also nice, but they cannot be used at will as most paladin abilities can.  the advantages o' the paladin is exact why we dump the chanter joinable at our first opportunity 'pon reaching defiance bay.  particular for our play style, the predictability o' the paladin and its synergy o' aura with various priest spells makes it a no-brainer  to choose paladin  (aside: we will once again note that 2 chanters is a fabulous support configuration as you can layer the chants so that your "essential" chants is always active.)  most priest spells have relative short ranges, which for a squishy character is a serious disadvantage.  the paladin, on the other hand, has excellent defenses-- am not having worries when utilizing the paladin adjacent to tanks and other front-liners.  also, as has been noted ad nauseum and echoed by longknife, the paladin does not require the same degree o' micromanagement as numerous other classes.  for players, many players, who has complained o' frenetic and overwhelming combat, a paladin is a welcome party addition.

 

find a niche?  it already has one.  that being said, it is a low-maintenance niche (boring) that will not appeal to the kinda folks that typical post in these threads. you folks is not the casual poe player, yes?  even so, Gromnir would also be in favor o' adding a few more options for active abilities that we would actual wish to use.  the paladin, particular for boss battles, has wonderful debuffs and buffs, but far too often we do very little with our paladin save wait for an opponent to get to death's door so that we can activate flames o' devotion... which hopeful in turn triggers inspiring triumph or some other per-kill effect.   is an underappreciated support class, but it is boring... boring for Gromnir.

 

HA! Good Fun!

If you don't want chants fading in and out, you can just set your chant to be made of only one phrase, then it will be a constant modal buff, like a paladin's, but with bigger range and more varied effects. Also, most of the paladin's abilities are not at will and the few that are are either the modal buffs or on-kill effects that can be difficult to actually trigger when you need them.

[SilchasRuin]

Honestly the main problem with Paladin is that it cannot protect the party against disabling status effects. Single target buffing defense is viable if enemies consistently go after one target and you know what it is, but the lack of after the fact removal for charm/confuse/dominate effects is crippling, as is the lack of defense against aoe stuns and paralyze.

 

As long as the paladin lacks the ability to adequately buff a party against these threats I can't choose to take a Paladin over a priest because he can't perform these critical support tasks. A party being stunned, or a party member being charmed are possibilities that can cause a fight to degenerate rapidly.

 

While I understand the need to ensure that paladins play differently from priests, either new aoe defensive support should be added or exhortations need to be modified so they can perform these tasks. Having liberating exhortation able to be cast on charmed/confused/dominated allies would be a good step to making paladins viable, but aoe stun/paralyze would still need to be answered.

Edited April 14, 2015 by SilchasRuin

[Lychnidos]

Has anyone tried a dual wielding Paladin or a Paladin with Two-Handed weapons? I am guessing will be much better than sword and shield pally....

 

At one point I thought about rolling a high perception paladin specialising in two handed morning stars, my plan was to become the lord of interrupts.....but now with so much negative feedback about overall pally performance, I have kind of given up on it.

 

I'm playing an unoptimized (RP focused) Goldpact Paladin, dual-wielding rapiers while wearing a breastplate. The stats are also RP focused:

• Mig 15
• Con 10
• Dex 11
• Per 14
• Int 14
• Res 14

Abilities:

• Flames of Devotion
• Zealous Focus
• Sworn Enemy

Talents:

• Weapon Focus Noble
• Critical Focus

I'm only level 5, almost 23h in the game, of which the last 3 are in Act II. My paladin is second in damage done (10070), Aloth being first (12023). Third, fourth, and fifth respectively are  Kana Rua, Eder, and Durance having between 4k and 6k. Sagani is last with 2k, but she's only been in the party since the begging of Act II.

 

For next talent I'm on the fence between Two Weapon Style and Intense Flames (the Full Attack of Flames of Devotion synergies pretty good with dual-wielding), but will most likely take the former.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Lychnidos

[Starthief]

Paladins could use some better scaling on their powers.  But overall, if I'm going to have two tanks, I'd prefer to have a fighter and a paladin than two of either.  And a Kind Wayfarer on the second line with a pike is also pretty useful.

 

[redneckdevil]

Loving my bleak walker paladin and imho he's doing as well as Eder is but I've had to change my play style.

Built him to tank while trying to maximize what little damage he can.

So far the main difference is see that makes fighters can be seen as better is the +2 engagement and the knotchdown. Paladins from what I've seen can survive longer not only because they can deflect more but can also have the DR arua up.

Playing the paladin, main difference in how I play is being more focused on positioning and battles sometimes taking longer due to sending paladin in alone at first to engage then focus firing while flanking said targets.

 

I'm with gromnir that they adiquite tanks because they are basically doing 3 jobs at once and they are a niche class to play I guess. Because they can do tank, support, and damage but the trade off is how well they can do it compared to classes that focus entirely on one or two parts.

 

Basically to roll with Paladins other than roleplaying is that they are an "**** hit the fan" type class. What I mean is, priest goes down, u still got some support and healing. Tank goes down, don't worry u still got one that's even harder to take down. Ur damage dealers go down, well the Paladins gonna be doing a lot better damage wise than ur fighter who's tanking.

Basically, the paladin isn't here to replace and do better anyone's role. No, the paladin starts to shine when people start dropping because ur not totally lost on any of those roles when the paladin is still up.

Hope that makes sense.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

Zealous Focus isn't replaceable by the Priest's Inspiring Radiance. They stack. You can't use Holy Radiance before combat either.... not unless you're not patched to 1.03 for some reason. And even though Blessing's accuracy modifier doesn't stack with Zealous Focus, its 1.1 damage modifier does. Blessing + Zealous Focus gives you 6 accuracy, 1.1x damage, and 5% hits to crits (this isn't suppressed by Dire Blessing's hits to crits either).

 

The only aura thats questionable is Zealous Endurance because its completely suppressed by Armor of Faith.

 

Interesting, thank you for that information. I also thought you couldn't use Holy Radiance out of combat anymore since the 1.03 patchnotes, but someone brought it up earlier and I thought I was therefor mistaken. Oh well, thanks again for rectifying this.

we noted earlier about stacking of paladin aura.  is good to see you have finally come around... if belatedly so.  

 

 

the wiki is not much o' a source.

 

again, for the third time...

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63968-update-56-paladins-and-wild-orlans/?hl=paladin

  "We also wanted their mechanics to be distinctive from the other classes while reinforcing their role in the world.  Area designer Bobby Null has always liked the marshal class from D&D 3.5, which is conceptually similar to the warlord in 4E: combat leaders who are at their best when they are augmenting their teammates.  This is the approach that I took when developing Project Eternity's paladins.  They have persistent modal auras, strong single-target healing and buff abilities (contrasting the broad AoE effects of clerics), and can passively grant bonuses to teammates in close proximity."

 you can also look for updates which identify which classes is tanky and front-liners, and the paladin ain't 'mongst those.

  http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?hl=front-liners

 

poe paladins is a low-maintenance support class with impressive defensive characteristics. they fill the support role different from chanters and priests, but that is their role.

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66195-update-78-the-leaders-of-the-band-chanters-and-priests/

 

euba hates repetition, but he still ain't responded to the essential question: if you honestly don't believe that paladins is equal to priests and chanters in a support role, then how does giving them better dps and tank abilities make 'em better in support?

 HA! Good Fun!

That might have been their goal, but it doesn't make it a good one. The paladin's chassis just isn't set up to be good at support. You have to burn to many talents to get the support abilities set up properly and the other support classes still do it better. The chanter even fills the passive aura support niche already. Paladins need to find their own niche or a niche that's worth doubling up on.

other support classes do it differently, not better.  depends on playstyle.  we already observed how chanters have cycling chants which mean that their buffs and debuffs fade in and out, frequently at inopportune times.  the chanter invocations are also nice, but they cannot be used at will as most paladin abilities can.  the advantages o' the paladin is exact why we dump the chanter joinable at our first opportunity 'pon reaching defiance bay.  particular for our play style, the predictability o' the paladin and its synergy o' aura with various priest spells makes it a no-brainer  to choose paladin  (aside: we will once again note that 2 chanters is a fabulous support configuration as you can layer the chants so that your "essential" chants is always active.)  most priest spells have relative short ranges, which for a squishy character is a serious disadvantage.  the paladin, on the other hand, has excellent defenses-- am not having worries when utilizing the paladin adjacent to tanks and other front-liners.  also, as has been noted ad nauseum and echoed by longknife, the paladin does not require the same degree o' micromanagement as numerous other classes.  for players, many players, who has complained o' frenetic and overwhelming combat, a paladin is a welcome party addition.

 

find a niche?  it already has one.  that being said, it is a low-maintenance niche (boring) that will not appeal to the kinda folks that typical post in these threads. you folks is not the casual poe player, yes?  even so, Gromnir would also be in favor o' adding a few more options for active abilities that we would actual wish to use.  the paladin, particular for boss battles, has wonderful debuffs and buffs, but far too often we do very little with our paladin save wait for an opponent to get to death's door so that we can activate flames o' devotion... which hopeful in turn triggers inspiring triumph or some other per-kill effect.   is an underappreciated support class, but it is boring... boring for Gromnir.

 

HA! Good Fun!

If you don't want chants fading in and out, you can just set your chant to be made of only one phrase, then it will be a constant modal buff, like a paladin's, but with bigger range and more varied effects.

 

less varied effects.  it would only be 1 chant active at all times, as 'posed to the paladin which gots auras and more situational abilities.  the auras may also be modified through abilities to be far more varied than any single chant.   also, can just as easily choose multiple auras for the paladin and still have abilities on top o' that.  more varied for paladin, particularly if you is using a single chant as you suggest.  

 

the invocations for the chanter is fantastic and truly sets them apart,  we love the idea o' the chanter.  we like a 2-chanter party... in theory.  however, for the most part, we don't like chanters for a large % o' the game as we are having the poe spin on a d&d bard wedded to a rather unforgiving clock.  in ordinary battles, we typical finish before we get a chance to use one minor invocation much less multiple such castings.

 

doesn't mean the chanter is bad either.  we get that a chanter can be excellent and we can see why some folks like them.  they don't work particularly well for us.  would rather have a paladin working in conjunction with a priest... or even a paladin and two priests.  chanter is different, not worse.  just as the paladin is different.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Climhazzard]

I made a party once using 2 Kind wayfarers that worked out very well, the amount of group healing I was getting from them was pretty great.  I took the same useless talent on both of them at the same level though and got annoyed with it and deleted the whole party, that being liberating exhortation.

 

I also wonder why I have to take lay on hands, another useless skill, in order to get deprive the unworthy.

[mazeltov]

Some claim that Paladin is a boring, low maintenance auto attack class. Turn on an Aura and stand on the front line whacking away with melee weapons until a party member needs a revive. However, Paladins built to secure killing blows are actually quite micro intensive, in that the player has to constantly monitor enemy health (especially on Expert mode, where floating health bars are not shown), and use careful timing of attacks and abilities. And not just the Paladin; this playstyle also encourages micromanaging the rest of the party in order to set up Pally combos.

 

--

 

Are the on-kill procs for Paladins' affected areas still centered around the Paladin or are they centered around the kill event that procced it? 

 

Black Path is centered on the Paladin as well. For the build I'm using that's not much of an issue, because it has high Int, Mig, and Dex to empower the casting of damage/healing scroll spells, as well as go for fast, strong killing blows with weapons. High Int synergizes especially well because it will affect all of:

 

• activated buff duration
• passive last-hit effect(s) radius and duration
• aura radius
• scroll spell radius/cone/duration

 

Black Path has a 7.5m radius when starting 18 Int. Massive by PoE radius standards. A position just behind the front line works best, in that both auras and last-hit procs will project toward either side of the battle, while the Paladin focuses on killing blows. My Bleaker will probably hover around the front line with an Estoc most of the time, and use reach/ranged/scrolls in trickier situations.

 

I'm digging how the standardized attribute system enables these types of off-beat builds, which, if not optimal, are at least viable and fun. A semi-tanky Death Knight caster ganksman with a slew of freebie on-kill support effects? Yes!

[CriticalFailure]

@Mazeltov: You've already covered the basics, but do you mind sharing a few more details about the build? I'm playing a "Bleaker" too, but I'm not yet decided on some aspects of it. Might go for dual wielding, to get some more mileage of FoD.

[mazeltov]

@Mazeltov: You've already covered the basics, but do you mind sharing a few more details about the build? I'm playing a "Bleaker" too, but I'm not yet decided on some aspects of it. Might go for dual wielding, to get some more mileage of FoD.

 

Deathlike Bleaker

 

M 19

C  10

D  15

P   6

I   18

R  10

 

1 FoD

2 T.B.P.

3 Zealous Focus/Charge

4 Intense Flames

5 Inspiring Triumph

6 W.F.: Soldier

7 Rev. Exhort

8 R.R. Field

9 Reinforcing Exhort or LoH

 

etc.

 

I actually use Zealous Charge because my party has a couple of non-standard melee who need the extra speed and Disengage potential. All scroll production is funneled to this character, so he has a nice repertoire of damage/heal/support spells to use and they really benefit from the caster stat spread. I use Estocs for the aesthetics (they're still pretty nice with 19 Mig though, and there's an early one that can cast Blizzard), but weapons from the Soldier group are probably better for securing last-hits in a larger variety of circumstances. Of course powerful scroll spells are great for killing blows in many situations, too.

 

If and when the bug(s) with Scion of Flames Grom mentioned get fixed, it might be worth substituting that in. Probably in Intense Flames' place.

 

Edit: Thought I should add that classes like Fighter are generally better at using scrolls than full casters due to having higher base Accuracy (which is further improved by the Accuracy bonus the scroll spell receives).

Edited April 14, 2015 by mazeltov

[CriticalFailure]

Thanks, I may give it a try, though I may just go human or something if I get tired of looking at a butt-ugly godlike (I wonder if the helm restriction can be modded, if only for the sake of covering those hideous heads).

 

Tidefall was the main weapon on a barbarian I played on in my first playthrough, so I may end up using it again.

[Brimsurfer]

 

asked and answered.  is not that priests do better in support but that they do different, and they is far more squishy when doing it.  auras are not requiring casting, which in some battles is quite useful.  paladin auras also stack different than priest spells, which is a major advantage when paired with a priest.  and why not get a priest and a fighter?  

 

1=1

 

1+1 = 2

 

paladin occupies one party slot.   also, have a fighter and a priest don't make the priest any less squishy.  is more than a few folks who like to have a party with two tanks, and a paladin secondary tank who can also add support functionality is a great fit in may parties................................

 

 

 

Yes I agree Paladin take only one party slot but he is not a full time tank like a fighter and YOU ARE going to get a Fighter anyway (95% of the player base thinks Fighter is indispensable when it comes to tanking)......so that's two slots (Fighter <almost mandatory> + Paladin so thats 1+1 = 2), its not one slot, it will never be one slot. Because having a Paladin does not eliminate the need of having a Fighter in your party (or even a Priest, for that matter, when you compare the priest support numbers with pally support numbers)

 

So now that you have your Fighter, then why waste the second slot on Pally since you already have a full time tank.....the wise choice would be a Priest and not a Paladin since Paladin, as we mentioned above, is also not a full time support class. And if you want an off tank to add more tankiness to your party, you'll be better off with a Monk (can be a really devastating off tank) or get a tanky Chanter.....

 

Not to mention a properly played Priest can indeed take a few blows as well (I am currently playing a Dual Wielding Priest of Skaen <PotD> and she is holding her own very well in melee, while providing support to the rest of the party). Also, even Barbarian is a better choice, he comes with good aoe dps and he can indeed take few blows and make things more manageable for your Fighter, by quickly disposing off the enemies (unlike Paladin, while holding the line).

 

So I am not quite sure about where does Paladin fit in? However if a Paladin had an AoE taunt or an intimidation aura then he could replace your Fighter, offering you a new approach or a different style of tanking with lesser damage but with front line support increasing the dps and capabilities of your other melee characters.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Ichthyic]

No, they're not. Some classes are arguably stronger and some of the abilities are meh, but that doesn't mean paladins are -bad-. If you're struggling with one, you'll likely struggle with anything.

 

Valenwood is a hard area to solo at level 2; just follow the road and come back later with companions to complete it. You're not supposed to clear every area as soon as you can enter it.

I had no idea you were supposed to find new companions and come back when I first played this game.

 

I went with the tanky paladin build suggested pretty much on the day the game was released:

 

hearth orlan

shield bearer

6, 10, 6, 20, 13, 20 for stats, IIRC.

 

not only did I manage to solo everything between the starter dungeon and gilded vale, I did the bear too.  took 3 tries, but I did it.

 

so it's entirely doable solo (at least on normal) with a paladin. 

 

As soon as I had 2 companions, I boosted the difficulty to hard.  Paly still felt like a valuable member of the team to me, both in combat and out, all the way to the end.

 

I still think the ONLY thing palies need is a bump to their support features, like say a customizable aura that works for all party members, instead of just by a tiny area, and scales with level, and making it more flexible in which traits you can choose on levelup (e.g., don't force a paly to choose the lay on hands ability if they later want to choose the ability that supresses buffs on enemies).  that's it.  that's all they need.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ichthyic

[Climhazzard]

Comparing offtanking ability, it's something like

 

Paladin>Chanter>Priest

 

Comparing support ability, it's something like

 

Priest>Chanter>Paladin

 

All of my parties end up with an offtank, but I tend to feel chanters are a better option right now than paladin.  With a few tweaks however I think Paladins would be a fine option, for example making liberating exhortation do what is says it does in the description.  

[Brimsurfer]

 

No, they're not. Some classes are arguably stronger and some of the abilities are meh, but that doesn't mean paladins are -bad-. If you're struggling with one, you'll likely struggle with anything.

 

Valenwood is a hard area to solo at level 2; just follow the road and come back later with companions to complete it. You're not supposed to clear every area as soon as you can enter it.

I had no idea you were supposed to find new companions and come back when I first played this game.

 

I went with the tanky paladin build suggested pretty much on the day the game was released:

 

hearth orlan

shield bearer

6, 10, 6, 20, 13, 20 for stats, IIRC.

 

not only did I manage to solo everything between the starter dungeon and gilded vale, I did the bear too.  took 3 tries, but I did it.

 

so it's entirely doable solo (at least on normal) with a paladin. 

 

As soon as I had 2 companions, I boosted the difficulty to hard.  Paly still felt like a valuable member of the team to me, both in combat and out, all the way to the end.

 

I still think the ONLY thing paly's need is a bump to their support features, like say a customizable aura that works for all party members, instead of just by a tiny area, and scales with level, and making it more flexible in which traits you can choose on levelup (e.g., don't force a paly to choose the lay on hands ability if they later want to choose the ability that supresses buffs on enemies).  that's it.  that's all they need.

 

 

 

 

 

Well you played on normal and hard difficulty, this topic is about PotD playthrough. Differences in performance exists in those difficulties as well, but in lower difficulties the encounters aren't hard enough so as to bring these differences into light.

 

Its mostly in PotD when you get close to realise the full potential of the classes and the contrast between class performances lights up like a Christmas tree on Christmas eve.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[b0rsuk]

On my second playthrough my party is:

PC (tanky Perception monk), Kana, Pellegrina, Sagani, Grieving Mother, Aloth.

 

It's a quite fun party. I have 3.5 melee fighters, and the fox doubles as a Ectopsychic Echo beacon. Fox of DooM ! The goal was to try all the remaining party members, and I decided against Eder because fighters are too passive. Knockdown is basically their only active ability.

 

A priest is good at support, but squishy and needs to be protected very well. A paladin can fullfill a similar role and he can keep tying enemies on the front line. 4 melee characters make it very easy to set up a defensive line to tie up enemies, then you activate the beam of DooM (ectopsychic echo) and nuke them. With a priest, it would be harder to do, and a single enemy that sneaks past is big trouble. Paladins don't need to be protected.

 

It is true that Paladins could use some work. They are fine for the most part, a solid foundation. But their abilities don't synergize as well. Libarating Exhortation would be much better if it worked on charmed characters. The flaming attack could use something, like high interrupt chance for example. Or get a +15 accuracy bonus. Too often it feels like it doesn't do anything. On-kill abilities are awkward on a class with low Accuracy.

 

One ability which I think is underrated is Zealous Charge. It's an aura of speed ! Base radius is 5m, bigger than other auras. If you have just a few points of stealth on each char, and wear something like Lilith's Shawl (aura of stealth +1), you can CHAAARGE into battle very quickly and tie up enemy spellcasters before they know what's going on. The aura also has +15 disengage deflection, which makes it easy to reposition without consequences. I've been already thinking of taking Long Stride on my monk so he can go from one target to another quickly, and Zealous Charge would do that even better. Movement speed is more subtle and harder to measure than DPS, but it can be VERY useful. My monk is disabling baddies all over the place, pushing them away from Aloth, Sagani etc as the situation arises. But in 90% of battles they can only dream of getting past my paladin-backed line.

 

Overall, I think Paladins are better for melee-oriented parties, and area attacks (from drakes, dragons) don't nuke them as much as priests. When there are strong area attacks, often a priest has nowhere to hide, and many priest spells have short range. Some shades or wurms can ruin a priest's day, instead of buffing the party he has to focus on saving his life. For people who like melee, I recommend paladins and chanters instead of priests. Additional body on the front line does make a difference, even if you'd otherwise have some healing.