Racial Villification, did you feel any?

[darqleo]

Godlike definetly should be heavily discriminated against (LORE!), along with the others getting different treatment depending on who and where you are based on your species/origin. 

 

From the description of a death godlike, you'd think townsfolk would be either more aggressive or run away, etc.

[Beardedgeek72]

 

Godlike definetly should be heavily discriminated against (LORE!), along with the others getting different treatment depending on who and where you are based on your species/origin. 

 

From the description of a death godlike, you'd think townsfolk would be either more aggressive or run away, etc.

 

 

Indeed.

Hey, my idea for the game would be to have the "souless kids" be replaced by Death Godlike children. 

[TheGoatMan]

I just wished more people reacted to my race it doesn't even have to be racist. I just got  Pallegina and had a conversation about godlike and she talked as if I wasn't one. I just really hate it when you are playing a game with multiple races/backgrounds and the npc's act like you picked the generic human option.  

[Blovski]

If I had the choice, I'd probably go for more race/class/background specific dialogue rather than dialogue based on attribute options since the former ties in with world lore more than the latter. Obsidian kind of put themselves in a rough spot with so many CC options though.

 

The IE games weren't big on racial reactivity either from what I recall. BG2 it really just affects romances, I think elves get some dialogue in Suldenesselar.

 

Lionheart had some really neat reactivity to their races (pure human, sylphy, beasty and demony), of the I.E. games proper I think IWD 2 might have had the most.

[ibanix]

To those of you advocating for more racial reactions/tension in the game, have you actually experienced real racism against your perceived race in real life? 

 

Bro, this isn't real life. It's a video game. Which also has prostitution, murder for hire, drug use, and torture. So I am 100% ok with the game having more racial tension in order to add to story value.

[The Wanderer]

To be honest, I find this quite offputting and unrealistic. I mean the Orlan are supposed to be considered vermin who everyone treats like ****, yet your character is treated like a normal human, same with the Godlike who are supposed to be considered freaks of nature.

[Badmojo]

yet your character is treated like a normal human...

That is one of the problems I notice a lot, the different races do not really feel different but, more like reskinned humans most of the time.  That is something that always bugs me in games, whether it is fantasy races or aliens.  I am like, why even have different races then?  

[illathid]

I think the big problem is how they've described the races in character creation. Race isn't a huge issue in Eora, and culture plays a bigger role in discrimination. This is seen in the game and many lore sources, but the racial descriptions run counter to this. So the fix is to change the racial descriptions so the match the rest of the lore, not the other way around.

[Luckmann]

If I had the choice, I'd probably go for more race/class/background specific dialogue rather than dialogue based on attribute options since the former ties in with world lore more than the latter. Obsidian kind of put themselves in a rough spot with so many CC options though.

 

The IE games weren't big on racial reactivity either from what I recall. BG2 it really just affects romances, I think elves get some dialogue in Suldenesselar.

 

But the IE games (most of them) didn't really have any "strong" races, though. In BG2, the most notable was Half-Orc, and yes, it could've used some reactions.

 

Certainly nothing like Godlikes. If you could actually play duergar, drow, aasimar, tiefling, etc, etc, I would've been annoyed if there were no reactions to it in BG2, but it didn't allow you to, so it never really felt out of place that they didn't comment.

 

Not getting comments on being a Deathlike at all (I can only remember it getting brought up once, and that wasn't until Defiance Bay) is.. odd. You'd think the guy with his face covered in branches or his hair and skin on fire would raise more eyebrows.

 

I think the big problem is how they've described the races in character creation. Race isn't a huge issue in Eora, and culture plays a bigger role in discrimination. This is seen in the game and many lore sources, but the racial descriptions run counter to this. So the fix is to change the racial descriptions so the match the rest of the lore, not the other way around.

I don't buy that, though. Race might not be a "huge issue" in Eora, fair enough, but how often does a Deathlike pass through Gilded Vale, especially during a veritable plague during which everyone is on their toes about ill omens? Pale Elves are rare, really rare, in these parts, yet not even a comment from other elves?

 

Don't buy it. No-one is so racially tolerant, especially not without excessive brainwash, as to not raise their eyebrows when they see something they've never seen for the first time in their life, even if there's a cultural emphasis on.. culture. Or nation. Whatever.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Luckmann

[Lady Evenstar]

Conflict based on past grievances and conflicting customs and/or perceived self-interest is inherently more interesting than conflict based on the shape of one's ears or degree of hairiness ...

[Khalid the bear]

I think the big problem is how they've described the races in character creation. Race isn't a huge issue in Eora, and culture plays a bigger role in discrimination. This is seen in the game and many lore sources, but the racial descriptions run counter to this. So the fix is to change the racial descriptions so the match the rest of the lore, not the other way around.

except there are barely any reactions to your land of orign or your background also, they have no more meaning reactionwise than race

[Luckmann]

Conflict based on past grievances and conflicting customs and/or perceived self-interest is inherently more interesting than conflict based on the shape of one's ears or degree of hairiness ...

 

Why? This assumes that everyone in the world subscribes to some nonsense "race is only skin deep"-philosophy. If a conflict was actually based on the shape of your ears or your degree of hairiness, I'd agree, but that's usually not what it's about.

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that wild orlans being base savages that would benefit from education and civilization; you'd be doing them a favour, really.

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that deathlikes? They are born that way. They're diseased, you know, you can tell, just look at that parched skin, and those growths? Nothing short of the plague. You think it's some accident Ondra's Gift had to be locked down due to the plague spreading, just a few days after he visited the Salty Mast?

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that godlikes.. what's up with godlikes anyway? They think they're somehow better than us? The Knights of the Crucible have started to accept their numbers, and they're really just favouring eachother, like some kind of chosen people. Before you know it, they'll have replaced the leadership with their own.

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that aumauans are planning to attack Defiance Bay. Did you hear that Kauna Raua guy down at the pub? He couldn't help but to go on and on about the cannons of their ships. You know why we don't have an Embassy here? They call us uncivilized savages, as if we are some damn orlan slaves.

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that the dwarves are planning on retaking Durgan's Battery. Is that a risk we can take? We just got out of the war with Readceras, we could never do the same thing again. It's sponsored by the Merchant's Guild in New Yarma, and I've heard that the Trading Guild in Defiance Bay is planning on joining; why would they be joining agents of Readceras? ****ing dwarves.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

I don't think anyone cares about the colour of your skin or the size of your ears. What matters is on the inside. And what is on your inside sucks.

[illathid]

 

 

I think the big problem is how they've described the races in character creation. Race isn't a huge issue in Eora, and culture plays a bigger role in discrimination. This is seen in the game and many lore sources, but the racial descriptions run counter to this. So the fix is to change the racial descriptions so the match the rest of the lore, not the other way around.

except there are barely any reactions to your land of orign or your background also, they have no more meaning reactionwise than race

I've gotten a ton of reactions as an Aedyrian Aristocrat so far. I can't comment on other combos though. Edited April 14, 2015 by illathid

[Luckmann]

 

 

I think the big problem is how they've described the races in character creation. Race isn't a huge issue in Eora, and culture plays a bigger role in discrimination. This is seen in the game and many lore sources, but the racial descriptions run counter to this. So the fix is to change the racial descriptions so the match the rest of the lore, not the other way around.

except there are barely any reactions to your land of orign or your background also, they have no more meaning reactionwise than race

I've gotten a ton of reactions as an Aedyrian Aristocrat so far. I can't comment on other combos though.

 

 

As an Aedyran Aristocrat, I can only think of 1. Pretty far from "a ton".

 

Might get better at some point, or might just be subtle as all hell, but I've stopped playing that character now, because the lack of reactiveness was getting to me (Deathlike Bleak Walker Paladin, Aedyr Aristocrat).

[Khalid the bear]

 

I think the big problem is how they've described the races in character creation. Race isn't a huge issue in Eora, and culture plays a bigger role in discrimination. This is seen in the game and many lore sources, but the racial descriptions run counter to this. So the fix is to change the racial descriptions so the match the rest of the lore, not the other way around.

except there are barely any reactions to your land of orign or your background also, they have no more meaning reactionwise than race

 

i have no way of telling npc reactions except based on comments from other players

 

BUT i have finished the game with show unqualified interactions and show qualifiers:

Most often its something based on Atribute

Sometimes its based on some skill (lore and survival i think came up few time, mechancic (that my main had) came up i think once

rarely its based on char class and their options (i think some of paladin orders and cleric religions came up once or tvice)

rarely its about land of origin

rarely its about background

i cant remember ONE instance based on class

 

and if someone chooses to play Death/Fire Goodlike of Eothas, THAT should change a ton of reactions and conversation options. i mean cleric of a dead god. who was national enemy number 1. whose followers were purged from the land or went into hiding? who is blamed for hollowborn children (spoilers but from early beginging of the game and from lore). NPC who worships him jouns you because of the trrouble he got into from following this god. (again spoiler, but from the first conversations of one of the first NPCs in the first wilagers). Of a race that is associated with the gods, rare, weird, shunned AND sterile. playing that character should be RP variant of PtoD

[sparklecat]

This thread inspired me to kick my PnP players, including the gnoll, out of the next inn they entered.

 

 

It is, admittedly, a ton of work to make a world properly reactive to a despised race, but I think the answer to that isn't to allow them anyway and skimp on doing so, it's to not even make it an option if you don't feel like you can do the job thoroughly.

[Badmojo]

This was one thing I loved in VTM:B, you got very different reactions and dialog options based on your character (bloodline, sex..etc).  The whole thing about POE that individual philosophy is more important than race/sex/species just comes off as totally unbelievable.  Especially when we have things like torture, incest, child killing and other things in POE.  Yet people are able to look beyond their race/species/sex..etc?  Again, (for the sake of argument) while I can almost see the same species sticking together because they are the same species, there is no way they would be that way to other species.  

[Varana]

It's about a conflict based on the fact that aumauans are planning to attack Defiance Bay. Did you hear that Kauna Raua guy down at the pub? He couldn't help but to go on and on about the cannons of their ships. You know why we don't have an Embassy here? They call us uncivilized savages, as if we are some damn orlan slaves.

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that the dwarves are planning on retaking Durgan's Battery. Is that a risk we can take? We just got out of the war with Readceras, we could never do the same thing again. It's sponsored by the Merchant's Guild in New Yarma, and I've heard that the Trading Guild in Defiance Bay is planning on joining; why would they be joining agents of Readceras? ****ing dwarves.

But there are no "the aumaua". There is Rauatai, which has a lot of aumaua, but they live elsewhere, as well. Your next-door neighbour might be one.

Similarly with "the dwarves". Which dwarves? If any dwarves plan to do something, odds are that there will be quite some non-dwarves with them.

 

I'm certainly not defending the treatment of godlikes in the game. I honestly wonder why they felt the need to include them and then basically forgot about them.

 

As for the mundane races, I think it's a nice deviation from that boring fantasy staple of race being everything.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Varana

[Jojobobo]

I think racism is a bit of an easy contrivance in fantasy RPGs, it's simple with some IPs to add in racism and think it adds depth and some shock factor (The Witcher and Arcanum both had smatterings of that). Cultural prejudices require much more effort to work in as they need more of a backstory rather than the effortless "I don't like him because he's big/small/has pointy ears etc." so I think PoE is better for it and not every culture would have the same opinion of every race.

[Luckmann]

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that aumauans are planning to attack Defiance Bay. Did you hear that Kauna Raua guy down at the pub? He couldn't help but to go on and on about the cannons of their ships. You know why we don't have an Embassy here? They call us uncivilized savages, as if we are some damn orlan slaves.

 

It's about a conflict based on the fact that the dwarves are planning on retaking Durgan's Battery. Is that a risk we can take? We just got out of the war with Readceras, we could never do the same thing again. It's sponsored by the Merchant's Guild in New Yarma, and I've heard that the Trading Guild in Defiance Bay is planning on joining; why would they be joining agents of Readceras? ****ing dwarves.

But there are no "the aumaua". There is Rauatai, which has a lot of aumaua, but they live elsewhere, as well. Your next-door neighbour might be one.

Similarly with "the dwarves". Which dwarves? If any dwarves plan to do something, odds are that there will be quite some non-dwarves with them.

 

I'm certainly not defending the treatment of godlikes in the game. I honestly wonder why they felt the need to include them and then basically forgot about them.

 

As for the mundane races, I think it's a nice deviation from that boring fantasy staple of race being everything.

 

 

That's completely beside the point; the fact that Rauatai is primarily made up of aumaua is enough for racial tension. Nevermind the fact that dominant groups are more likely to favour themselves, even subconciously, within the own society. While pointing as Rauatai and say "Aumaua" might be an issue in Defiance Bay, Rauatai might have it's own power-struggles involving the fact that the leadership is largely made up of aumauans, something I'm sure is causing resentments amongst the orlans.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

I think it's a nice deviation from the "race being everything" mould of many fantasy settings, where dwarves are a unified group in this place, and elves are one group in this place, and if there's other places it's like this, and so on and so forth. But at a certain point, it starts getting ridiculous that there's no vilification or tensions at all, it's just not believable, and it enters the realm of the absurd after a while. It's like a medieval multicultural theme park with guns and rape except people got divided across colour because everyone is mysteriously oblivious to the physical and psychological differences between them, despite the fact that they can't even breed with eachother.

 

I think racism is a bit of an easy contrivance in fantasy RPGs, it's simple with some IPs to add in racism and think it adds depth and some shock factor (The Witcher and Arcanum both had smatterings of that). Cultural prejudices require much more effort to work in as they need more of a backstory rather than the effortless "I don't like him because he's big/small/has pointy ears etc." so I think PoE is better for it and not every culture would have the same opinion of every race.

 

Except, y'know, it's not just skin deep. It's not about the size of the ears or something silly like that. At best, references to ears and size are slurs. Like you say, not every culture would have the same opinion of every race. That's exactly the point. Some cultures will villify or praise different races and peoples, they're not going to be some odd uniform rainbow culture.

 

I mean, honestly, what true Aedyran would accept Orlans as anything resembling humans or elves? Don't be silly. I bet you're some Vailian lapdog.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Luckmann

[The Wanderer]

I wish Obsidian would make a patch where your race actually matters.

Edited April 14, 2015 by The Wanderer