Let's talk class balance....

[Ceranai]

So which class do you consider best for soloing PotD?

 

My types are: Druid (AOE, heals, bear form), Cipher (DPS, Spell Spam, CC, range or melee builds), Barbarian (One Stands Alone and dmg), Rouge

 

My guess (didn’t try them yet): Monk (if find some good tank-build that allow maintain their damage), Chanter (Summons)

 

Rest I can’t judge really.

 

Your opinions?

also I can confirm that both monk and chanter make good solo classes. The difference being that a monk can out DPS a chanter but a chanter is more reliable: once you get themhidden behind thier summons you are pretty safe to wear down most enemies

[Gromnir]

Continuation from race balance. And here let me piss people off by hyperbolizing the tier titles again:

 

God Tier

 

Cipher

Chanter

Rogue

 

Pro Tier

 

Fighter

Druid

Priest

 

Meh Tier

 

Barbarian

Wizard

Ranger

Monk

 

WTF are you doing Tier

 

Paladin

 

 

 

 

 

Seem about right?

disagree... and that is a good thing.  

 

cipher's, particular 'cause o' the resting mechanic in hard mode and a couple current weapon/focus "exploits," is a bit much.  

 

all the other classes?  wizard, monks and paladins has all offered us considerable use and we do not currently see as behind the curve.  we can make sword & board monk tanks that is not only effective, but interesting to play.  the wound mechanic makes monks intriguing to Gromnir in the tank role 'cause we can actual do something with them. paladins is boring, but they is 'posed to be boring to Gromnir.  we like to micromanage, and they don't require much micromanagement.  even so, as a low-maintenance support class that is far less squishy than priests, we don't see them as weak... just boring.  and wizards?  wizards get a serious bad rap 'cause a few loud boardies suggested that wizards is gimped, particularly after 1.03.  hogwash.  we still  have our wizard spam slicken and miasma of dull mindedness and those two spells alone would make the wizard a win in our book.  be able to effective cripple an opponent's reflex or will saves with low-level spells?  with three different prepared grimoires, we is ready for pretty much any and all opponents.  the wizard can not only dish out extreme hurt, but with the correct spells and synergy with other classes, he/she can turn nightmare encounters into

 

 

personally, we haven't played the ranger or barbarian much, but we see some folks claiming that barbarians is dps dynamos and that rangers is at least playable.

 

ciphers is indeed too much, but in our admitted personal experience, the rest o' the classes is all balanced well enough.. with the opportunity for additional minor tweakage.  oh, and keep in mind that balanced don't mean that the classes must be equal powerful, but they should be equal useful and equal fun.  sure, as we noted above, the low-maintenance aspect o' a paladin makes 'em decidedly less fun for Gromnir, but that is actually one o' their selling points for many players.  am actual surprising impressed with poe class balance, particularly in light o' the fact that we loathe classes in rpgs.  

 

ironically, the single biggest shortcoming we see regarding the classes is that the developers listened too much to fan feedback during the beta.  the class roles were a bit better defined early in the beta. is our view that many o' the classes has been diminished through addition... but ours is not a popular pov.

 

regardless, we think it is a good thing that we got so much disagreement regarding which classes is good and bad.  if there were complete consensus, that would be bad.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PIP-Clownboy]

 

 

Wiz has a lot of awesome CC and still good aaoe + defensive self buffs though. I'd argue that wiz aoe might be actually better for solo. For non ironman I'd say cipher, wizard  and druid since you have tools to beat anything if you're not extremely unlucky. For ironman situation will change since you need something that can recover from bad luck better so more stable classes like chanter get better.

 

Can you please tell me what do you mean by "ironman"?

 

Yup, Cipher is my favourite class, but I got bored of him after two playthroughs. However Puppet Master and AOE Domination/Charm spell can't be expressed enough. Mind Binding, Mind Blades, Mind Lance and few other powers are too good to pass.

 

Druid would be much better if his spirit forms were stronger. However, thanks to modders there is mod already that boost spiritforms to be usable in solo Hard/PotD so I think I will reroll Druid again, since now I can abuse Bear form heal and Damage reduction (16 with mod, instead of 10). Once again modders do what devs didn't balance yet .

 

Iromman is trial of iron, trial of iron is inspired by the ironman mode in other paradox games where you dont get to reload saves and only get one life. In EU4 for example all achievements require ironman mode to be turned on and most of the middle-difficult achievements won't be achieved unless the player is specifically aiming for that achievement on that game. 

 

 

Trial of Iron was announced well before the deal with Paradox was ever signed. Besides that Paradox never even had the Ironman feature in their games until recently

[Voltron]

Hmmm, so many people say good things about Wizards that I might try one in solo....

 

What build you recommend? And you build it mostly for sword-shield or for 2H? Estocs and Halberds will always be close to my heart ^^.

 

And another questions: did anyone actually built well-balanced monk for solo PotD?

[HozzM]

Cipher has a few overpowered abilities but the main reason why it is better than all the other classes is because of the Focus mechanic.  The fact that you start fights with 10+5*level focus means you can choose 2-3 abilities to cast as soon as combat starts.  Out of Focus?  Soul Whip gives you decent DPS and gives you Focus enough for another cast in as few as 1 attack.  So basically you have a ton of great abilities, many of which stay powerful throughout the game, that Focus turns into 2-X use per encounter, X being unlimited thanks to Focus, while other classes have a mix of finute use per rest and per encounter.

 

Chanter, for me, feels weak because of the way phrases work compared to Focus, ie. very slow to generate.  Summons are great but honestly they have turned a fight for me like twice in a ~40 hr play through.  Also, very much unlike Cipher abilities, a lot of incantations stop getting used as you level up.  I use Kana mainly because even nerfed Ila is still really good if you use a lot of bows and guns, and I do.

Edited April 9, 2015 by HozzM

[Eos]

Cipher has a few overpowered abilities but the main reason why it is better than all the other classes is because of the Focus mechanic.  The fact that you start fights with 10+5*level focus means you can choose 2-3 abilities to cast as soon as combat starts.  Out of Focus?  Soul Whip gives you decent DPS and gives you Focus enough for another cast in as few as 1 attack.  So basically you have a ton of great abilities, many of which stay powerful throughout the game, that Focus turns into 2-X use per encounter, X being unlimited thanks to Focus, while other classes have a mix of finute use per rest and per encounter.

 

Chanter, for me, feels weak because of the way phrases work compared to Focus, ie. very slow to generate.  Summons are great but honestly they have turned a fight for me like twice in a ~40 hr play through.  Also, very much unlike Cipher abilities, a lot of incantations st

op getting used as you level up.  I use Kana mainly because even nerfed Ila is still really good if you use a lot of bows and guns, and I do.

And strangely enough chanters seem to be the only class that doesn't have build in synergies with itself. The higher level the phrase is the longer it takes to chant resulting in slower generation of points for invocations. The higher level invocations on the other hand also require more points to be cast meaning that you effectively have to decide between high level phrases or high level invocations. Feely really counterintuitive in terms of character progression :/

[Odd Hermit]

The big thing w/Cipher is you get something close to the power of a caster on difficult fights, while they're way better for dealing with everything in between.

 

A free-casting mid-high level Priest/Druid/Wizard feel overall more powerful if you've got all their spells/rest and are just unleashing on a big fight. But a cipher you get to unleash on every single fight. Also, Tenuous Grasp is just insanely good for 10 focus(I think Confusion effect needs some fix/nefs), and Mental Binding @ 15. They're also very fast casts making Cipher a good emergency CCer. I will spam Tenuous Grasp or Mental Binding on some fights, between a shot or two with an Arbalest to keep gaining focus between.

 

 

 

As for Chanter, I use level 1 Phrases mainly, until I can summon a phantom to stunlock something, then I might switch to higher level chants. Phantom is just a great summon - it's crazy fragile on PotD but if you use it well it's one of the more reliable CCs out there for putting on non-melee targets or just for flanking. I use it over the 4 phrase cost summons almost always. 

[cavemandiary]

IMO, It is the few KEY abilities that are really, really OP. Mental Binding, has no place as a lvl 2 ability. It is way better than Silent Scream(it´s nearest counterpart/upgrade), which is 2 levels higher. Borrowed instincts allows you to never miss your abilities, and generate focus quicker (more hits = more dmg = more focus drained), Mindplague is equally ridiculous, but the one ability that really takes the price is Amplified Wave, which can clear an entire screen with max might/int when thrown back-to-back.

Edited April 9, 2015 by cavemandiary

[Odd Hermit]

I wasn't that impressed with Amplified Wave. I take it for its occasional utility but I think Mind Lance is usually better damage - it costs more but you can hit a fair number of targets with it.

[MadDemiurg]

I think you're confusing it with smth else, Amplified Wave is the one that prones everything on the screen for the remaining seconds of their lives with no FF.

[Odd Hermit]

I think you're confusing it with smth else, Amplified Wave is the one that prones everything on the screen for the remaining seconds of their lives with no FF.

 

Ah, there's Mind Wave and there's Amplified Thrust, that's the reason for confusion here.

 

Mind Wave is definitely good.

[Nokturnal Lex]

One of the first mods I've love to see is just getting rid of Rest restrictions on abilities. It's easy to love the Cipher when you don't have to rest after 2 fights to be able to cast your useful spells. Resting as a mechanic I feel should've been done away with via an Option in the menu. I don't mind healing through resting, but having to rest so your Wizard/Druid/Priest can cast their good spells again just becomes tedious micromangement just like having a restricted inventory is. Also it'd be nice to have an infinite rest amount like in the old days. Having to buy camping supplies to rest is just more tedious micromanagment that contributes nothing to difficulty.

Just as a general tip, If you want to create difficulty. make the AI smarter and monsters stronger/have more abilities, don't just copy pasta more enemies in the players way. Hard mode for example does this way too much, it doesn't make the game harder it just makes you rely on AoE more often.

 

 

 

----

Edited April 9, 2015 by Nokturnal Lex

[Daemonjax]

One Stand Alone is definitely 100% not working as intended which is why it's a bad argument in balance discussions. I don't use it outside of gimmick lulz. Barbs are still top tier without the brokeness. Glass cannon Barbs in particular explode most things in seconds on POTD anyway.

 

Yeah, it's definitely not working as intended.

 

It makes dual wield barb too awesome compared to rogue.

 

The flavor of it suggests it's primarily supposed to be a defensive ability.  Offensively, I think it's only supposed to add yet another 1.2 damage modifier.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Daemonjax

[MadDemiurg]

There's a number of abilities that probably were adding flat damage in the past. Some didn't even get their tooltips corrected, like Ranger's mark (says +20, IRL is +20%) or chanter's fire weapon song. OSA just flew under the radar I suppose.

[Voltron]

Ehhhh....I have problem on 12 level of Endless Paths of Od Nua with my solo barb. There is big group of Vithracks there with this main guy "T-something" and they just chain stun/paralyze me...

 

I think I need to get some AOE scrolls for some CC for them..

 

Did anyone tested if Barbarian for Two-handed is better than Dual wielding one or Weapon/Shield on PotD?

 

Cipher is cool, but you have to remember that he lacks power to DISABLE group of enemies. It is especially frustarating against Vithracks/Casters/Bansheses. You can paralyze one enemy only or daze one and damage enemies around but you lack AOE paralyze/knockdown/stun etc.

 

Against bosses or simple huge melee packs Cipher is god but lack of AOE disable is painfull :/

 

Btw. Wouldn't Death God Like race trait synergizes superb with Barbarian? Is this trait even worth using. So far I only take Anumanins for my builds.

[MadDemiurg]

Cipher has mind plague, the best aoe disable in the game probably. Amplified wave is maybe even more awesome, but not well suited for solo. Cipher suffers from quite uneven power scaling. He has solid spells on level 1 and 2, pretty mediocre 3 and 4 with a few exceptions and OP 5 and 6.

 

As for barb, if you use OSA bug dw is the best style. If you solo you'll still need a shield though I think, since you'll die too fast in some instances otherwise. No need for 2h.

 

If you don't use OSA bug 2h is probably the better dps style overall, but I don't think barb can solo well without OSA bug (you can prove me wrong though).

Edited April 9, 2015 by MadDemiurg

[Voltron]

Cipher has mind plague, the best aoe disable in the game probably. Amplified wave is maybe even more awesome, but not well suited for solo. Cipher suffers from quite uneven power scaling. He has solid spells on level 1 and 2, pretty mediocre 3 and 4 with a few exceptions and OP 5 and 6.

 

As for barb, if you use OSA bug dw is the best style. If you solo you'll still need a shield though I think, since you'll die too fast in some instances otherwise. No need for 2h.

 

If you don't use OSA bug 2h is probably the better dps style overall, but I don't think barb can solo well without OSA bug (you can prove me wrong though).

 

Thank you! Now please explain me "OSA bug 2H/dw" :D. English is not my native and I have problems with such shorts . Forgive me

[MadDemiurg]

2H = two handed. 

DW = dual wield (two weapons)

OSA bug = One Stands Alone barb talent being bugged and adding +20 flat damage

[Odd Hermit]

Cipher has mind plague, the best aoe disable in the game probably. Amplified wave is maybe even more awesome, but not well suited for solo. Cipher suffers from quite uneven power scaling. He has solid spells on level 1 and 2, pretty mediocre 3 and 4 with a few exceptions and OP 5 and 6.

 

As for barb, if you use OSA bug dw is the best style. If you solo you'll still need a shield though I think, since you'll die too fast in some instances otherwise. No need for 2h.

 

If you don't use OSA bug 2h is probably the better dps style overall, but I don't think barb can solo well without OSA bug (you can prove me wrong though).

 

Mind Plague is very late game though, when other casters have some crazy stuff too.

 

I agree 3/4 are a bit mediocre and not as cost effective as 1/2 though. I use Secret Horrors a fair amount 'cause it's a large AoE and applies two debuffs though.

[AncientToaster]

Right now Cipher to me is in a good place...maybe because it's my favorite class so far. I just would hate to see it nerfed so much to lose any bit of effectiveness it has right now. I feel like any nerf to it will be too much, and they will have to balance it and tweak it through multiple patches. Just leave it alone.

 

Chanter - I really like the concept of this class but it's a very boring class right now. I don't use a created one, I'm basing this mainly on using Kana Rua. Over 90% of my battles are over before I would ever have needed to summon anything, or use his abilities. I think if you really wanted to take advantage of being a Chanter you need to be a Tank, because it seems like anything that isn't a summon is a tiny cone AoE. Kana has HUGE intelligence and the cone is very small. I use him as a Ranged gunner support class, but he's not that useful really, I only keep him around to help my Cipher reload her Blunderbuss faster. I guess you could call that useful...I do like his character though, but I don't think I would ever want to make a PC Chanter. Too passive.

[dam]

Oh man do not underestimate the monk. I thought the very same thing when I started playing. I can't vouch for any difficulty past normal as this is my first play-through in PoE and hence my first character. I chose the monk because the playstyle is very odd compared to every other class. Yes, could have been a fighter or a wizard or a rogue - basically more generic roles in an rpg, but I chose a monk because they looks so far out of a box compared to a monk in any other game.

 

Thought it kinda sucked early on with the whole wounds system, but as i leveled-up I realise the power behind wound stacking spam. It's tremendous! Damage is utterly insane! I've only just reached defiance bay (did some bounties along the way) and these are my stats comparing my monk to the 2nd highest damage in my group.

 

 

 

You're playing < PotD , anything is absolutely great < PotD.

My own monk melted faces on Normal and could frontline like a baws while my backline just stood there and watched.

 

Then you hit PotD, get up against 70 def enemies with 18 DR, against your level 3 monk.

And that's where you realize your awesome stunning punches just don't connect 8/10 times, and your Force of Anguish consistently fails to knock enemies prone.

On top of that, your unarmed attacks now deal 3-6 damage per hit, while lions crit you for 40+.

 

In the meantime, 3 mobs got past your tank and are now mauling your backline, you're out of stunning punches, your FoA missed but at least you're still on 7/10 endurance.

You get crit for 60 damage and drop to 2/10 endurance + 7 wounds.

You dump them all in more FoAs which miss superbly.

You press F8.

 

 

 

Edit : for reference, find below the stats of my level 5 monk on PotD

Combat: 23 hours

Enemies defeated: 147

Damage dealt: 13.3k

Damage taken: 4.2k

Highest single target hit: 55

Crits: 73

Hits: 647

 

Encounters are a real nightmare though, requiring a rest after 2-3 fights, sometimes even after just the one big fight (pack of 7 pwgras / 3 trolls).

 

Stats for the early monsters I've encounted on PotD:

Monster: deflection, fortitude, reflex, will, DR

Forest Lurker: 51 91 61 63 8

Phantom: 75 60 76 79 8

Pwgra: 61 68 52 56 15

 

Phantoms can stun, sneak attack, and get 75 deflection.

Short of using CC (like paralyze) to reduce its deflection, you're not going to hit that at levels 3-5.

Edited April 10, 2015 by dam

[dam]

Even without micro managing them, monks can be quite good.

 

My own monk was dealing 19-24 damage with his fists by endgame, with 5 DR penetration and the fastest attack speed in the game. He couldn't burst, but man oh man could he melt things down. He had more than twice the damage of anyone else in the party, with tanking stats almost as good as Eder.

 

Yet another post where someone says how amazing their monk is; yet another post that fails to mention what difficulty this is on.

As for your "more than twice the damage" statement, any character, when micro-ed, does more damage than the others.

 

No offense.

 

 

My rogue had 100k on hard when he finally hit level 12, which was more than the rest of the team combined.

Damage numbers mean nothing, some characters contribute something other than raw damage (tanking, CC, buffing, healing...)

[Parsong]

Barb and Cipher need dat' nerf bat.  

 

Oh and I've read all the Pro Monk posts, those numbers are very underwhelming. They still need love.  The game is easy enough for that not to matter much, but this is a class balance thread not a difficulty balance thread.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Parsong

[cavemandiary]

I think you're confusing it with smth else, Amplified Wave is the one that prones everything on the screen for the remaining seconds of their lives with no FF.

You forgot the fact that with high might/int at lvl 12, you can cast two of them back-to-back, which effectively kills every single trash mob on anything but POTD. The few that are left standing, don´t feel too good.

 

Mind plague IS better on POTD though.

[cavemandiary]

Barb and Cipher need dat' nerf bat.  

 

Oh and I've read all the Pro Monk posts, those numbers are very underwhelming. They still need love.  The game is easy enough for that not to matter much, but this is a class balance thread not a difficulty balance thread.

 

Nah, monks are actually pretty balanced. Paladin and ranger could use some love, (and chanter too, he is basically only useful on POTD if you min/max) and obvious exploits skews class balance, but in general I think monks are great. He was easily my MVP on a hard playthrough.