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Current status of Monks

monk balance

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#1
Maydawn

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Hello :)

 

I know that balance is still being worked on, devs are still getting a TON of feedback a day about pretty much anything, and this is still a work in progress. But there's one thing that's bothering me, and I posted on a couple of related topics about it, but no one seemed to pitch in, and I figured maybe it was just overlooked or something.

 

So even with the bugs, and balancing issues, I really love this game. My only real problem is the current state of monks, and I was wondering maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. Monks are my favorite RPG class. I always picture them in my mind as these awesome martial arts guys, in light / no armor, kicking and punching faces, dodging / soaking hits in a decent manner.

But in this game, they really didn't live up to my expectations. The wounds system sounds awesome on paper, but you have to get hit for it to work. Now, I can theoretically run a monk with full plate armor, but it doesn't feel like it fits the class theme, or the way I picture them in my mind, and running with light / no armor gets me killed too quickly. I can avoid getting hit, but then there's no interactive play to it without wounds.

 

I'd really love it if they had some innate per-level damage reduction, for example starting at 3 DR, and reaching 9 or 10 at max level, so they are roughly equal to a breastplate. [Only when not wearing armor of course]. Maybe a boost to endurance, so they can soak the same damage as an equal level fighter with medium / heavy armor.

 

Anyone else feels the same way ? Or maybe I'm just picturing them differently than the devs ?

 

[I just want to note, I played with a monk on hard, got as far as Defiance Bay quests and gave up eventually, feeling very weak compared to other melee classes. Went with a balanced attributes, no min-maxing, trying to focus on RP as much as possible. Had 14 constitution]


Edited by Maydawn, 03 April 2015 - 02:44 PM.

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#2
AncientToaster

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I've heard it from both sides of the spectrum, that Monks are gods and Monks are peasants. 

 

it seems like it's all based on how you build and use it.

 

personally I think they need a lot of work, I don't like their mechanics right now. I don't like how they need to take damage to use skills, and late game weapons beat their fists which is just backwards to me.


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#3
Dongom

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I've heard it from both sides of the spectrum, that Monks are gods and Monks are peasants. 

 

it seems like it's all based on how you build and use it.

 

personally I think they need a lot of work, I don't like their mechanics right now. I don't like how they need to take damage to use skills, and late game weapons beat their fists which is just backwards to me.

 

There is no monk build that makes them better dmg than barb/rogue or better tanks than fighter/paladin.Not going to bother comparing them to Druid, Wizard, Cipher as the casters are in a league of their own for dmg and utility. 

 

With that being said they are more than able to do PoTD, they just happen to be the weakest link in the game.

 

Self Wound ability needs to be PER ENCOUNTER, also he needs some kind of fist passive that allows them more DR penetration. Maybe "Chi Fists" they glow blue and do -5 DR.  He also needs DR bonus when wearing CLOTH.


Edited by Dongom, 03 April 2015 - 03:37 PM.

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#4
Mazuo

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They need to be as they were described in the developer updates and have wounds provide mitigation.  Then deciding whether to accrue more wounds that bleed out the damage they originally avoided to use certain talents more effectively or spend them to avoid taking the damage at all.

 

Cipher anti-focus is not the wounds system I bought into.


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#5
Sabin Stargem

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I don't like Pillar's take on the monks.  If there is a class editor released, I will try to add in my own version:  Dragon Warrior.  Afterimages, kiai shouts, wolf fists, spirit balls, and so on.  Tenkaichi-era Dragonball is how I would like my monks to be.



#6
Maydawn

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I've heard it from both sides of the spectrum, that Monks are gods and Monks are peasants. 

 

it seems like it's all based on how you build and use it.

 

personally I think they need a lot of work, I don't like their mechanics right now. I don't like how they need to take damage to use skills, and late game weapons beat their fists which is just backwards to me.

 

I find it hard to imagine monks being gods :blink:. I guess maybe because I avoid putting anything more than light armor on them, and I avoid power-playing. I still hope somewhere, sometime in a few patches, they'll be a decent alternative to a fighter. Punches instead of weapons, avoid / soak damage innately instead of wearing armor.

 

 

I've heard it from both sides of the spectrum, that Monks are gods and Monks are peasants. 

 

it seems like it's all based on how you build and use it.

 

personally I think they need a lot of work, I don't like their mechanics right now. I don't like how they need to take damage to use skills, and late game weapons beat their fists which is just backwards to me.

 

There is no monk build that makes them better dmg than barb/rogue or better tanks than fighter/paladin.Not going to bother comparing them to Druid, Wizard, Cipher as the casters are in a league of their own for dmg and utility. 

 

With that being said they are more than able to do PoTD, they just happen to be the weakest link in the game.

 

Self Wound ability needs to be PER ENCOUNTER, also he needs some kind of fist passive that allows them more DR penetration. Maybe "Chi Fists" they glow blue and do -5 DR.  He also needs DR bonus when wearing CLOTH.

 

 

Even if they did make the self wound per encounter, it would still be far from good design in my opinion. So you're not tanking, because well, you can't [at least not with how I build my monks], and if you're not tanking then you end up with a single wound self inflicted, which doesn't really let you utilize all the wounds related abilities. I can't really come up with a good idea on how to change the wounds mechanic to work, maybe put it on a timer when not getting hit, or just put abilities on cooldown ?

 

They need to be as they were described in the developer updates and have wounds provide mitigation.  Then deciding whether to accrue more wounds that bleed out the damage they originally avoided to use certain talents more effectively or spend them to avoid taking the damage at all.

 

Cipher anti-focus is not the wounds system I bought into.

 

That might be a good idea. If they could make wounds provide mitigation, it could make up for the lack of DR when not wearing armor. Maybe make wounds regenerate endurance ? Or have increase DR per wound ?

 

The good thing is, I'm not alone in this, we might look at it differently, but we're all pretty unhappy with the current state of the class. I hope a dev stumbles upon this thread and makes our feedback heard, and then monks might get some changes :)



#7
Mazuo

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Well it is a good idea, but it's not mine either, it's how they originally described the class.  From http://forums.obsidi...-6#entry1329940

 

But at the core of this class is a little rule about how monks take damage. You see, when a monk gets hit, only part of the damage is inflicted on him or her immediately. The rest is redirected to a Wound, which is an effect that causes damage over time (called a DoT effect) to the monk. That slowly-ticking Wound would only seem to be delaying the inevitable result except for one thing: the monk can get rid of that Wound by using special attacks.

 

* A percentage of damage done to the monk, after DT, is converted to Wound damage.  If the monk gets hit for 100 points of damage, a big chunk of that is still sailing through.

 

* Wounds are "buckets" of damage, so the monk needs to have that amount filled before they gain the Wound resource.

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

* Monks' unarmed damage does increase as part of their Transcendent Suffering class ability.  This makes their attacks competitive with other fast melee weapons, but their raw damage is nowhere near as high as something like a longsword or a maul.  When fighting heavily armored opponents, monks can benefit from using other melee weapons (their special attacks still work with them).

 

* While monks do have several active-use abilities, Turning Wheel exists to give the monk a passive bonus from fighting with Wounds.  If you let a monk with Turning Wheel "ride" for a while, he or she will do additional fire damage on melee hits automatically.

 

Unfortunately, this concept has just evaporated leaving a bland, powerless class that has no unique role left in its place.


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#8
colmortimer1066

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I have not played a monk though I like the idea of monks.  To me, a monk class is all about dodging and avoiding damage.  I think they should have a really high deflection, when unarmoured and if skills must be based on something other than times per encounter, it should be on damage done and not wounds...it just seems backyards they way they do it. :/


Edited by colmortimer1066, 03 April 2015 - 04:40 PM.


#9
AncientToaster

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Well it is a good idea, but it's not mine either, it's how they originally described the class.  From http://forums.obsidi...-6#entry1329940

 

But at the core of this class is a little rule about how monks take damage. You see, when a monk gets hit, only part of the damage is inflicted on him or her immediately. The rest is redirected to a Wound, which is an effect that causes damage over time (called a DoT effect) to the monk. That slowly-ticking Wound would only seem to be delaying the inevitable result except for one thing: the monk can get rid of that Wound by using special attacks.

 

* A percentage of damage done to the monk, after DT, is converted to Wound damage.  If the monk gets hit for 100 points of damage, a big chunk of that is still sailing through.

 

* Wounds are "buckets" of damage, so the monk needs to have that amount filled before they gain the Wound resource.

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

* Monks' unarmed damage does increase as part of their Transcendent Suffering class ability.  This makes their attacks competitive with other fast melee weapons, but their raw damage is nowhere near as high as something like a longsword or a maul.  When fighting heavily armored opponents, monks can benefit from using other melee weapons (their special attacks still work with them).

 

* While monks do have several active-use abilities, Turning Wheel exists to give the monk a passive bonus from fighting with Wounds.  If you let a monk with Turning Wheel "ride" for a while, he or she will do additional fire damage on melee hits automatically.

 

Unfortunately, this concept has just evaporated leaving a bland, powerless class that has no unique role left in its place.

 

Very disappointing. 



#10
Emptiness

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My only real problem is the current state of monks, and I was wondering maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. Monks are my favorite RPG class. I always picture them in my mind as these awesome martial arts guys, in light / no armor, kicking and punching faces, dodging / soaking hits in a decent manner. But in this game, they really didn't live up to my expectations. The wounds system sounds awesome on paper, but you have to get hit for it to work. Now, I can theoretically run a monk with full plate armor, but it doesn't feel like it fits the class theme, or the way I picture them in my mind, and running with light / no armor gets me killed too quickly. I can avoid getting hit, but then there's no interactive play to it without wounds.
 
I suspect that there are players out there building monks with maxed Might and Dex, no damage reduction, and having them lead the charge to the enemy line to try to max their damage output.  That combination doesn't work too well, but it doesn't mean monks are a fail.
 
It's possible to have a functional no-armor monk.  You'll want to max Perception and Resolve, enchant your clothing as soon as possible for a little bit of damage reduction, and keep your eyes out for gear that will boost your damage reduction or defenses.  Send your tank(s) into combat first to take the enemies' first attacks, with your monk close behind, and try to swing around the line and get into combat with a high-value target, like an enemy caster.  Low damage reduction will mean that you'll be taking damage (and thus have wounds to use), but high defenses will mean that you won't be crit much and many attacks will only be grazes - which will mean that the damage you take will be less bursty, which should give your healer(s) a chance to throw some more endurance your way.  Ideally you want to get your monk into a series of 1-on-1 confrontations; avoid getting mobbed if at all possible.  Success is as much a matter of how well you play as it is how well you CharGen.

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#11
Maydawn

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My only real problem is the current state of monks, and I was wondering maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. Monks are my favorite RPG class. I always picture them in my mind as these awesome martial arts guys, in light / no armor, kicking and punching faces, dodging / soaking hits in a decent manner. But in this game, they really didn't live up to my expectations. The wounds system sounds awesome on paper, but you have to get hit for it to work. Now, I can theoretically run a monk with full plate armor, but it doesn't feel like it fits the class theme, or the way I picture them in my mind, and running with light / no armor gets me killed too quickly. I can avoid getting hit, but then there's no interactive play to it without wounds.
 
I suspect that there are players out there building monks with maxed Might and Dex, no damage reduction, and having them lead the charge to the enemy line to try to max their damage output.  That combination doesn't work too well, but it doesn't mean monks are a fail.
 
It's possible to have a functional no-armor monk.  You'll want to max Perception and Resolve, enchant your clothing as soon as possible for a little bit of damage reduction, and keep your eyes out for gear that will boost your damage reduction or defenses.  Send your tank(s) into combat first to take the enemies' first attacks, with your monk close behind, and try to swing around the line and get into combat with a high-value target, like an enemy caster.  Low damage reduction will mean that you'll be taking damage (and thus have wounds to use), but high defenses will mean that you won't be crit much and many attacks will only be grazes - which will mean that the damage you take will be less bursty, which should give your healer(s) a chance to throw some more endurance your way.  Ideally you want to get your monk into a series of 1-on-1 confrontations; avoid getting mobbed if at all possible.  Success is as much a matter of how well you play as it is how well you CharGen.

 

 

That's what I meant when I said I focus on RP, and don't power-play. I don't want to max anything really, just build a "realistic" monk that fits to how I picture them in my mind. How I see it, if you need to min-max a character just to play him to a decent manner, it just strengthens the point that it's not balanced :\

 

I know I can go full-on insane monk BG2 solo on insane mode, but I really want to avoid that, at least until I finish the game and enjoy it's lore and RP a couple of times :)



#12
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My only real problem is the current state of monks, and I was wondering maybe I'm the only one feeling that way. Monks are my favorite RPG class. I always picture them in my mind as these awesome martial arts guys, in light / no armor, kicking and punching faces, dodging / soaking hits in a decent manner. But in this game, they really didn't live up to my expectations. The wounds system sounds awesome on paper, but you have to get hit for it to work. Now, I can theoretically run a monk with full plate armor, but it doesn't feel like it fits the class theme, or the way I picture them in my mind, and running with light / no armor gets me killed too quickly. I can avoid getting hit, but then there's no interactive play to it without wounds.
 
I suspect that there are players out there building monks with maxed Might and Dex, no damage reduction, and having them lead the charge to the enemy line to try to max their damage output.  That combination doesn't work too well, but it doesn't mean monks are a fail.
 
It's possible to have a functional no-armor monk.  You'll want to max Perception and Resolve, enchant your clothing as soon as possible for a little bit of damage reduction, and keep your eyes out for gear that will boost your damage reduction or defenses.  Send your tank(s) into combat first to take the enemies' first attacks, with your monk close behind, and try to swing around the line and get into combat with a high-value target, like an enemy caster.  Low damage reduction will mean that you'll be taking damage (and thus have wounds to use), but high defenses will mean that you won't be crit much and many attacks will only be grazes - which will mean that the damage you take will be less bursty, which should give your healer(s) a chance to throw some more endurance your way.  Ideally you want to get your monk into a series of 1-on-1 confrontations; avoid getting mobbed if at all possible.  Success is as much a matter of how well you play as it is how well you CharGen.

 

The problem is that the Monk seems to be a class that likes high Deflection (aka not being hit) but then also needs to be hit a lot to accrue Wounds for his/her abilities.

 

This just feels . . . weird/wrong to me and like the Monk class is infighting against his/her own abilities/skills/talents.


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#13
Emptiness

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That's what I meant when I said I focus on RP, and don't power-play. I don't want to max anything really, just build a "realistic" monk that fits to how I picture them in my mind. How I see it, if you need to min-max a character just to play him to a decent manner, it just strengthens the point that it's not balanced :\

 

I know I can go full-on insane monk BG2 solo on insane mode, but I really want to avoid that, at least until I finish the game and enjoy it's lore and RP a couple of times :)

 

I'll admit, this confuses me.  I don't see putting your starting stat points in Perception and Resolve as min-maxing.  You don't even have to dump any stats to do that.

 

If you object to putting points into Perception and Resolve then that's fine, put them elsewhere...but you will have to adjust your tactics, playstyle, ability selections, and talent selections accordingly - or your character won't be pulling its weight.  That's true of any class, not just Monks.

 

It sound to me like you are saying that you want to be able to make any available choice in terms of character creation and advancement and have all possible sets of choices be equally functional with any playstyle you might choose to adopt.  I'm not sure it's even possible to design a game system that will allow that to happen.  You'll have to either build your character to match your playstyle, or adjust your playstyle to work with the way you build your character.  The only possible alternative to that I can see would be to lower the difficulty to easy; maybe the game will be sufficiently forgiving at that setting such that your build and your playstyle won't need to be in harmony.



#14
Emptiness

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The problem is that the Monk seems to be a class that likes high Deflection (aka not being hit) but then also needs to be hit a lot to accrue Wounds for his/her abilities.

 

This just feels . . . weird/wrong to me and like the Monk class is infighting against his/her own abilities/skills/talents.

 

Monks don't need to be hit at all to work.  If the enemy isn't wounding you then you can't use your abilities, but then also the enemy isn't going to win the fight.  If the enemy does wound you, then you get to punish them for that mistake.  The only way it will turn out bad for the monk is if the enemy is damaging them too fast, which is where having a high deflection is to the monk's advantage.  Slowing down the rate that the monk takes damage gives the monk time to use wounds to good effect.


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#15
draek

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My PC is a monk and what I have learned so far is I use my Tanks to fight block off 90% of the enemy meele then send my monk to fight an enemy 1 on 1. He gets wounds and flanks the enemy with monk powers. So far its worked reasonably well.


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#16
Maydawn

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That's what I meant when I said I focus on RP, and don't power-play. I don't want to max anything really, just build a "realistic" monk that fits to how I picture them in my mind. How I see it, if you need to min-max a character just to play him to a decent manner, it just strengthens the point that it's not balanced :\

 

I know I can go full-on insane monk BG2 solo on insane mode, but I really want to avoid that, at least until I finish the game and enjoy it's lore and RP a couple of times :)

 

I'll admit, this confuses me.  I don't see putting your starting stat points in Perception and Resolve as min-maxing.  You don't even have to dump any stats to do that.

 

If you object to putting points into Perception and Resolve then that's fine, put them elsewhere...but you will have to adjust your tactics, playstyle, ability selections, and talent selections accordingly - or your character won't be pulling its weight.  That's true of any class, not just Monks.

 

It sound to me like you are saying that you want to be able to make any available choice in terms of character creation and advancement and have all possible sets of choices be equally functional with any playstyle you might choose to adopt.  I'm not sure it's even possible to design a game system that will allow that to happen.  You'll have to either build your character to match your playstyle, or adjust your playstyle to work with the way you build your character.  The only possible alternative to that I can see would be to lower the difficulty to easy; maybe the game will be sufficiently forgiving at that setting such that your build and your playstyle won't need to be in harmony.

 

 

Well, how I see it, if you have a class that needs a rather specific set of attributes in order to utilize them [min-maxing is what I meant by that], the balance is kind of broken. I'm not saying monks don't work, and I have no objection to putting points in any of the stats. I want class systems and gameplay mechanics to be viable and fit the "theme". As I've said, currently without a tank-ish build, be it either high constitution / high deflection, the class just doesn't work. If it's high constitution, you'd also be running heavy armor, or sacrificing too many other stats to support it. If it's high deflection, you either end up not getting hit enough to use wounds, or you do and can easily get 2 shot with unlucky RNG by an ogre.

 

I'm not saying that monks don't work at all, all I'm saying is the wounds system feels out of place and unbalanced, and requires a rather specific and narrow playstyle and builds. If a class has an integral game mechanic that requires them to get hit to use, they should at least have some abilities that support and enrich that experience. I'm not saying that they should be as tanky as a fighter in heavy armor with a shield, but they should survive long enough for players to enjoy that mechanic.

I wouldn't even mind if they made a Cipher style system that builds Chi or something.

 

My original monk was: 14 might, 16 constitution, 15 dexterity, 12 perception, 10 intellect, 12 resolve. Wearing light armor [leather]. Everything was fine and dandy at the start, but the more I progressed the more I felt I was either getting killed too quickly, or avoid getting it and just end up feeling my punches hit like a wet noodle with the wounds system just sitting there not contributing anything to my character or game experience.

 

As I've said before, it's important for me to emphasize it: the current monk class doesn't fit how I picture them, and in my opinion the wounds mechanic doesn't fit with the class theme. It can work, but it can be much better for player experience and balance if it was changed, or the class changed to be able to absorb hits in a decent manner without having to resort to a higher constitution build with heavy armor, or just remove it completely and go for max deflection and end up not using wounds because I don't get hit and risk an RNG event that would one shot me.


Edited by Maydawn, 04 April 2015 - 04:33 AM.


#17
PrimeJunta

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I liked the original Wounds mechanic a lot more, i.e. as a "damage buffer" you had to use before it converted to actual damage. Made room for much more versatile viable builds too. Needed tuning of course but then so did everything else.

 

That and the change to the armor mechanic are IMO two things that became worse over the course of the BB.


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#18
Musluk

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I've finished the game with my monk on Normal before the patch, so Edér was tanking almost everything and I generated very little wounds in most fights.

 

However, by far and large my monk was the MVP of any fight that I was outnumbered - any fight I couldn't flank or generally debuff enemies so my rogue couldn't sneak attack with ease, my monk shined - and if anything slipped past Edér he was there to tank it and get some wounds going.

 

Of course, towards the end my rogue adventurer catched up to my monk PC due to sneak attack bonuses. Patch upped the damage a bit though so I'm not sure if it'll still happen.



#19
W.MacKinnon

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That's what I meant when I said I focus on RP, and don't power-play. I don't want to max anything really, just build a "realistic" monk that fits to how I picture them in my mind. How I see it, if you need to min-max a character just to play him to a decent manner, it just strengthens the point that it's not balanced :\

 

I know I can go full-on insane monk BG2 solo on insane mode, but I really want to avoid that, at least until I finish the game and enjoy it's lore and RP a couple of times :)

 

I'll admit, this confuses me.  I don't see putting your starting stat points in Perception and Resolve as min-maxing.  You don't even have to dump any stats to do that.

 

If you object to putting points into Perception and Resolve then that's fine, put them elsewhere...but you will have to adjust your tactics, playstyle, ability selections, and talent selections accordingly - or your character won't be pulling its weight.  That's true of any class, not just Monks.

 

It sound to me like you are saying that you want to be able to make any available choice in terms of character creation and advancement and have all possible sets of choices be equally functional with any playstyle you might choose to adopt.  I'm not sure it's even possible to design a game system that will allow that to happen.  You'll have to either build your character to match your playstyle, or adjust your playstyle to work with the way you build your character.  The only possible alternative to that I can see would be to lower the difficulty to easy; maybe the game will be sufficiently forgiving at that setting such that your build and your playstyle won't need to be in harmony.

 

snip*

As I've said before, it's important for me to emphasize it: the current monk class doesn't fit how I picture them, and in my opinion the wounds mechanic doesn't fit with the class theme. It can work, but it can be much better for player experience and balance if it was changed, or the class changed to be able to absorb hits in a decent manner without having to resort to a higher constitution build with heavy armor, or just remove it completely and go for max deflection and end up not using wounds because I don't get hit and risk an RNG event that would one shot me.

 

 

The monk is more of an archetype of a western monk. Or a D&D/Pathfinder monk mixed with heavy western influences. The class is supposed to appear more like Friar Tuck in Robin Hood rather then Jet Li in Shaolin Temple. What we imagine the Monk to be is immaterial; the game world doesn't have Eastern monks as popularized by Hong Kong action films. They more resemble the flagellant monk from The Da'Vinci Code. This was how they were designed from day one. Apparently they do work, and are decent tanks.

 

  The class theme is to  basically "gain soul power from enemies attacks. Turning the attackers aggression, and soul energy back on themselves." What you or I want the class to be is beside the point, the class achieved it's design goal of being very different then the pen&paper monk that's for sure.


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portedgoblin

portedgoblin

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I play a monk on hard and really enjoy it. The wound mechanic actually works for me, even though when I look at it it should not, for the reasons people have stated here.

 

My monk is unarmed and have no armor. I send him in just after my 2 tanks, Palegrina and Eder. He does crazy single target damage.

 

In an easy fight, he will not get hit and get no wounds and just auto-attack. That is fine, since his auto attack damage is quite good enough.

 

In a hard fight with many enemies, 1 or 2 will start attacking him, despite the 2 tanks (4 and 2 engagements respectively). So now he will get wounds, he will start doing aoe damage with Rooting Pain and his auto attack damage goes up with Turning Wheel (think of it as a fire enchant for the fists).

If he starts to take too much damage, I will heal him of course, but also I will start doing CC to the mobs attacking me. With 2x per encounter stuns and Force of Anguish I can get rid of all mobs attacking me if I need to. This is the part that works out. As long as things are hitting me I have endless CC!

His attacks so often that even a missed CC is no problem, another one coming up in 0.5s.

 

This is the most fun class I think I played in a long time! 


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