Update 93: Patch 1.03 - Important Community Fixes

[Shardal]

 

Not sure if you're serious or not. Regardless. Let's take that deep breath together. Inhale. One... Two... Three... Exhale. And again... Okay? I truly don't mean that to patronize you. I am actually concerned you are letting internet cats dancing across a keyboard affect your mood. Oh you weren't aware? That's all we are. Absolutely true. Cats somehow mashing out complete thoughts. Even this. So take this next bit with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

You can not deny this is a triviality if it affects you so. It is a triviality relatively speaking. Claims of alleged insensitivity or obsequiousness have a way of building malign towers to better cast stones. But that is fine. Because you know triviality when you see it, but more importantly... the cats. Hope you feel better LordCrash.

 

Sincerely,

Detruncate

 

 

You're right, I'm sorry. I know I should let this internet stuff get to me but sometimes the pure stupidity, egocentrism and self-righteousness of some people on the internet is really hard to bear.

 

Anyway, I think Obsidian can gladly go without every single customer who feels personally offended by such a triviality (no matter on which "side" you are). The community here and the long-term sanity of its members (devs included) will be better without them. Looking at the ridiculously low post count of many people on this "discussion" proves that most of them aren't really interested in the game itself in the first place...

 

Much Ado About Nothing.

 

 

Couple of things. 

 

How does someones post have any bearing on the issue?

 

And using false equilevance fallacy to make both sides seem equal is quite absurd. Some of us are rightly disturbed by the fact that a company we have supported and followed for years has decided to remove content from it's game because someone decided to take issue about a joke. A joke they decided was about an issue it had nothing to do with. Also freedom of speech and expression aren't trivial matters. People actually die defending free speech and expression. IF Obsidian had made an editorial decision about the limerick on their own and before the release of the game it would have been fine. But lacking the courage and spine to defend a piece of art after it has been included in the game shows that they are propably willing to censor themselves in future.

 

Would you prefer if Obsidian in future doesn't include any situations that might be a source of controversy, there is implied rape, abortion, dead gods and murders. IF we start to remove content because it triggers some of the consumers we will soon have nothing left.

 

Those who decided to take one the mantle of limerick police have the right to express their opinion on the matter, but that doesn't mean that their wishes has to be granted and something has to be taken away from the community through the act of censorship.

 

“Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties.” - John Milton 

 

“Because if you don't stand up for the stuff you don't like, when they come for the stuff you do like, you've already lost.” - Neil Gaiman 

 

“Most people do not really want others to have freedom of speech, they just want others to be given the freedom to say want they want to hear.” - Mokokoma Mokhonoama

[PrimeJunta]

 

About sums up my feelings on the matter at this point.

[Gaidan]

On the plus side this makes future backing decisions easy.

[draek]

*sigh* it really doesn't matter who started the movement - it really is about the movement it self. 

The person who started it might have been a pure hypocrite, but it still holds meaning regardless.

 

The whole issue is a grey area.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and should be free to say it, but as a commercial product obsidian does needs to cover its bases. After all, the media is a dangerous beast who can easily be swayed one way or the other. The media can make or break a company and its best to be on its side. During development of PoE ,Obsidian nearly went bankrupt now isn't a time for them to do risky behavior. If you love Obsidian you will accept their decision so they can continue to make games you enjoy. Sometimes you should know when to fight and when not too. After all it is not your jobs and livelihood on the line when you say "They should have Stood up to the SJW's".

 

If you want to take a stand against them - do it directly to them ( SJW ), but don't blame Obsidian for it. After all, they are simply trying to survive in these dangerous times where many studios are shuttering its doors.

Edited April 4, 2015 by draek

[Subgard]

 

There is new bug. I didn't have it before this patch(1.03).

 

I have some scrolls and my characters cant use them. I placed them in quick item inventory, but I see in when hovering on a scroll: Requires 2 lore. And for example Aloth have many more lore...

 

It's really irritating...

 

Did you check if they were combat only, by any chance.

..

 

My bad. They work in battle. But this (maybe just for me) really look like bug. I expect different info when i can use something only in battle. So...im happy that was my mistake :D :D I didnt expect this. Thank you very much

[cake-teleporter]

 

Making a semantic argument about how being offended is whining is to ignore that maybe it's not offence it's emotional hurt,  before you come up with a smart retort to that consider the number of people with OCD who find release in physical pain.

that maybe it's not offence it's emotional hurt

Whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA, Hold on for a minute. My brain needs to process this level of mental.

You are saying that a joke is so bad that it can cause EMOTIONAL HURT to you? And you find a reaction like this to a joke to be a healthy and proper response? Are you for real?

 

 

No I'm merely saying that a potential exists for some emotional pain, for some people.

 

The second part was an extreme illustrative example of how certain conditions of the mind can be as injurious as other sources of corporeal pain and that discounting emotional pain is silly, not that they were equivalent in any way, or that it was about me.

[Varana]

The tombstone icon indicates a memorial. These are personalized messages written by our backers. Many of them break the fourth wall, so players desiring complete immersion may wish to avoid clicking them.

Just got this load screen hint - is this one new?

Nice.

[Shardal]

*sigh* it really doesn't matter who started the movement - it really is about the movement it self. 

The person who started it might have been a pure hypocrite, but it still holds meaning regardless.

 

The whole issue is a grey area.

Everyone has the right to their own opinion and should be free to say it, but as a commercial product obsidian does needs to cover its bases. After all, the media is a dangerous beast who can easily be swayed one way or the other. The media can make or break a company and its best to be on its side. During development of PoE ,Obsidian nearly went bankrupt now isn't a time for them to do risky behavior. If you love Obsidian you will accept their decision so they can continue to make games you enjoy. Sometimes you should know when to fight and when not too. After all it is not your jobs and livelihood on the line when you say "They should have Stood up to the SJW's".

 

If you want to take a stand against them - do it directly to them ( SJW ), but don't blame Obsidian for it. After all, they are simply trying to survive in these dangerous times where many studios are shuttering its doors.

 

So you are ok that people start to influence Obsidian when they decide to view some part of content as offensive to them even if they have misunderstood the said content? 

Obsidian was able to create Pillars of Eternity through the help of 77000 backers, do you really think that vast majority of them find that limerick be so damaging they wouldn't buy the next Obsidian game? Then again if Obsidian starts to cater to SJW's and cut and remove content from the game everytime someone makes a fuss about something that will definately affect peoples willingness to buy it's products. 

 

Only party in this case that had the ability to stand for it's content and editorial decicions was Obsidian, but they decided to remove content from the game because someone was offended by it. People will allways take offence on what you do, but if you seek to please everyone by losing your integrity you will end up pleasing nobody.

 

In the end we who have bought the game end up losing content, Obsidian has lost it's spine and Firedorn was forced to remove his art.

[ImRhoven]

 

 

 

 

This is an obvious lie though. You changed it because you were pressured by a minority group on Twitter lol. You've alienated the people who saved your company from oblivion by backing this game on Kickstarter to appease the rampant SJW movement demanding anything they find offensive to be censored. The fact that you're lying about it now is even more disgusting and disrespectful. Be honest about it.

 

"So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause" has never been more relevant.

 

Oh god, why did I read this horrible thread? It's nothing but gamergaters and people trying to defend a dumb limerick as artistic integrity.

 

Are you actually serious? This doesn't at all represent me. My goal in backing this project was not "I want a studio I love to make something that offends SJWs".

 

And that quote. Jesus Christ man, that quote. You know if the limerick referred to laser guns and sci fi stuff you'd have no problem with it being changed, but the moment someone gets offended, it's the death of liberty to actually listen to them.

 

This entire situation is still messed up though - who is the change for? It's not for the GGers because apparently the most important thing to them is that this game contains content that offends minorities. It's not for the people who were actually offended because it's obviously a dig against them.

 

Third time's the charm, right?

 

 

 

 

You spelled "she" wrong. And last time I saw gators talk about Thompson they were saying how great a guy he really was. I know logically consistent arguments aren't gg's strong suit, but really.

 

Sincerely, a backer who made Pillars of Eternity possible. Unlike you mr. sockpuppet. 

 

All these new accounts wihtout backer status coming out of the woodworks suddenly trying to give extra weight to a ****ty position ... typical gg "tactics".

 

Sure you did, now show me evidence of Gators saying he's a great guy, typical SJW tactics, making claims they cannot back up.

 

 

Do you even know what sockpuppet means? You clearly don't, go look the definition of that, just because someone made a new account on the forumm so they can debate the issue does not make them a soc-puppet anymore than all the cry babies crying "oh, won't you think about the women who get offended about pretty much anything" who have never bough or played the game, hell, they don't even play games.

 

"All these new accounts wihtout backer status coming out of the woodworks suddenly trying to give extra weight to a ****ty position ... typical gg "tactics"."

 

Extra weight? The majority of backers on the forum are in favor of keeping it up, only two people are against, thats~at least a 10 - 2 ratio...

 

Funny how you dismiss other people's opinions because "they haven't backed the project", yet, this was changed because of people who don't even play games to begin with. This is the "opposition", bunch of people who can't defend their position without assuming things, acting like hypocrites and strait up lying about things that never happened.

 

> I deem this offensive, change it or else I won't play your game, that I haven't backed, played or will ever play, because I'm not even a gamer

 

 

Here you go: https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-supports-jack-thompson

 

The person who started this by tweeting about it, encountered the limerick while playing the game. How is she not a gamer? The person who signal boosted it, so it got picked up by geek and gamer blogs and websites, is a game developer. 

[Mr The Geoff]

Well done Obsidian. 

 

Despite what a lot of people are saying I believe you handled this right.

 

1. You took your time before making a response and thought it through.

2. You spoke to the person who created the content and allowed them to create another message which was within your guidelines.

3. You didn't listen to the faux outrage of Gamergate's baying hate mob or if you did, you didn't let it force you into a wrong decision.

4. You made a clear statement that you applied the same policy you would have done had this not slipped through your vetting process the first time.

 

This is editing and quality control not censorship and it's been done right.

 

I am proud to be a backer of this game and I will likely continue to support your products in future.

 

Keep up the good work.

[Viggo]

While the knobhead SJWs are beyond silly, I think Obsidian handled it agreeably.

 

What I would like to know, is what they would have done, had the original tombstone creator not agreed to a new piece of text.

[Vok]

 

 

 

 

 

This is an obvious lie though. You changed it because you were pressured by a minority group on Twitter lol. You've alienated the people who saved your company from oblivion by backing this game on Kickstarter to appease the rampant SJW movement demanding anything they find offensive to be censored. The fact that you're lying about it now is even more disgusting and disrespectful. Be honest about it.

 

"So this is how liberty dies, to thunderous applause" has never been more relevant.

 

Oh god, why did I read this horrible thread? It's nothing but gamergaters and people trying to defend a dumb limerick as artistic integrity.

 

Are you actually serious? This doesn't at all represent me. My goal in backing this project was not "I want a studio I love to make something that offends SJWs".

 

And that quote. Jesus Christ man, that quote. You know if the limerick referred to laser guns and sci fi stuff you'd have no problem with it being changed, but the moment someone gets offended, it's the death of liberty to actually listen to them.

 

This entire situation is still messed up though - who is the change for? It's not for the GGers because apparently the most important thing to them is that this game contains content that offends minorities. It's not for the people who were actually offended because it's obviously a dig against them.

 

Third time's the charm, right?

 

 

 

 

You spelled "she" wrong. And last time I saw gators talk about Thompson they were saying how great a guy he really was. I know logically consistent arguments aren't gg's strong suit, but really.

 

Sincerely, a backer who made Pillars of Eternity possible. Unlike you mr. sockpuppet. 

 

All these new accounts wihtout backer status coming out of the woodworks suddenly trying to give extra weight to a ****ty position ... typical gg "tactics".

 

Sure you did, now show me evidence of Gators saying he's a great guy, typical SJW tactics, making claims they cannot back up.

 

 

Do you even know what sockpuppet means? You clearly don't, go look the definition of that, just because someone made a new account on the forumm so they can debate the issue does not make them a soc-puppet anymore than all the cry babies crying "oh, won't you think about the women who get offended about pretty much anything" who have never bough or played the game, hell, they don't even play games.

 

"All these new accounts wihtout backer status coming out of the woodworks suddenly trying to give extra weight to a ****ty position ... typical gg "tactics"."

 

Extra weight? The majority of backers on the forum are in favor of keeping it up, only two people are against, thats~at least a 10 - 2 ratio...

 

Funny how you dismiss other people's opinions because "they haven't backed the project", yet, this was changed because of people who don't even play games to begin with. This is the "opposition", bunch of people who can't defend their position without assuming things, acting like hypocrites and strait up lying about things that never happened.

 

> I deem this offensive, change it or else I won't play your game, that I haven't backed, played or will ever play, because I'm not even a gamer

 

 

Here you go: https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-supports-jack-thompson

 

The person who started this by tweeting about it, encountered the limerick while playing the game. How is she not a gamer? The person who signal boosted it, so it got picked up by geek and gamer blogs and websites, is a game developer. 

 

So what you have managed to prove is that you did indeed lie.

The person who tweeted about it is a SJW and the guys in question who you claim is supporting Jack Thompson did in fact only say that maybe the reports on Jack Thompson were a bit too one-sided or that its hilarious how Anitas Tweets make Jack Thompson look like a swell guy,

 

So where does he say what great guy he is?

Where exactly are they sympathizing with him?

Where are the agreeing with him?

 

What you see is A Man in black trying really hard to give every tweet about Jack Thompson a spin. But I am sure you were aware of that. As the other guy said, this is exactly how SJWs operate: Lies, Misinformation and if that is not working and they get called out: Deliberately pretending to be stupid.

[OchreJelly]

I feel bad for the backer; they get painted as a bad person because people looking for offense can't read.

[lightblade75]

As I do not know this poem - is there any chance to post it here? Or will this also be offending? I would like to read it first, in order to make up my mind...

So does anyone dare to post this here? Or post a link to a site where it can be read?

[ChipMHazard]

"Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed. 

He once was alive, but now he's dead. 

The last women he bedded, turned out a man

And crying in shame, off a cliff he ran."

[Ineth]

Guys, Firedorn is cool with it.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/74461-controversial-limerick-discussion/page-25?do=findComment&comment=1631723

 

Everyone wins, one side gets a "problematic" piece of content out and the other side gets a middle finger to those offended immortalized in the text.

And both sides get to feel like the underdog and revel in righteous indignation...

 

Isn't the Internet great?

[VanishedOne]

Nice that Firedorn got the last laugh; a great deal nicer if the announcement had reflected that.

 

It's ironic that, in the name of inoffensiveness, there was a demand that one interpretation of the poem should be (ahem) hegemonistically privileged over other culturally valid perspectives; and in the end, ironically, one was.

[RetardedChimp1]

Ignoring how downright despicable the ones complaining so often turn out to be when you actually take a look at their character...

 

Companies caving to a hate mob is always the wrong decision in the long run. Whether Firedorn was spoken to beforehand or not is beside the point, this sets a precedent that if a few whiners complain loud enough about something, they can and will get their way. Bad form, Obsidian.

[Jojobobo]

I hate this idea people have that jokes perpetuate a culture of a certain kind of behaviour or attitude - jokes don't perpetuate anything. I've had a look into whether there's any academic literature and journal articles to substantiate things like sexist jokes or rape jokes or anything like that promote those behaviours because I've had this argument many times before - and you know what, there's zero evidence they do. Prejudices and illegal behaviours arise from the cultures people grow up in and and their own personality, not because they heard a joke and it made them do it.

 

Saying that a risqué limerick perpetuates transgender hate is beyond stupid. Vocal morons preaching that certain jokes are going to make the world turn into a sea of prejudice and inhumanity are complete idiots - they have no backing to their argument on any kind of level (go onto any kind of academic literature database like Web of Knowledge and have a search, I dare you) and the more people pander to them the more people believe these stupid notions have any kind of basis.

 

That is why Obsidian shouldn't have altered the verse - they shouldn't have even approached the guy in the first place suggesting he should change it.

[giant_frying_pan@yahoo.com]

You shouldn't be hindered from playing the game as we have made sure that all physical copies of the game were also given a digital copy. You can go to your Products tab in the Backer Portal to redeem your key if you have not done so already.

 

Unless you are a physical backer with two copies and had already arranged to give the digital one away.

 

But still...shipping "soon"!

[daknik]

Wow... I am seriously disappointed in Obsidian for this.  I would say you caved to a vocal minority of people, however in this case, you caved after a very vocal majority supported this being left in the game.  What will you cut out of the game next when the next person gets offended?

 

And personally... I don't believe for a second that this was "voluntary" from the backer.

[Dark_Ansem]

I hate this idea people have that jokes perpetuate a culture of a certain kind of behaviour or attitude - jokes don't perpetuate anything. I've had a look into whether there's any academic literature and journal articles to substantiate things like sexist jokes or rape jokes or anything like that promote those behaviours because I've had this argument many times before - and you know what, there's zero evidence they do. Prejudices and illegal behaviours arise from the cultures people grow up in and and their own personality, not because they heard a joke and it made them do it.

 

Saying that a risqué limerick perpetuates transgender hate is beyond stupid. Vocal morons preaching that certain jokes are going to make the world turn into a sea of prejudice and inhumanity are complete idiots - they have no backing to their argument on any kind of level (go onto any kind of academic literature database like Web of Knowledge and have a search, I dare you) and the more people pander to them the more people believe these stupid notions have any kind of basis.

 

That is why Obsidian shouldn't have altered the verse - they shouldn't have even approached the guy in the first place suggesting he should change it.

 

Jokes do, but only if they are uttered with malevolence. The one in-game was more of a dirty limerick, hilarious but not malevolent in scope.

The author is OK with it, and in this particular case we should be too. The principle is still wrong, however.

[Ineth]

Alright, so I've gotten enough entertainment out of this; time to get serious.

 

Just FYI, I am a trans woman, and I was pretty displeased with that memorial, and was writing to Obsidian about it when I saw this update. I knew immediately which text they were talking about because, no, it's not just one crazy person on twitter - That joke was hateful and mean spirited.

 

mean–spirited : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain

 

I can't look into the author's mind, but I'm 95% sure that him writing the poem was not "mean spirited" at all. Everyone needs to chill a little more and not immediately assume malice on everyone else's part. This also goes for the people jumping to the conclusion that the complainants must be political campaigners with ulterior motives rather than actual fans of the game/genre.

 

My interpretation of what happened is this:

1. Some "cis" person with little insight into the trans community wrote what he thought was an innocent joke, which in his mind likely did not attack trans people (the bud of the joke was the "cis" character who killed himself), and possibly wasn't even meant to refer to trans people at all (it could have been meant as two "cis" heterosexual men having sex unintentionally).
    
2. However, the set-up of the joke happened to resonate with what members of the "online transgender twitter community" believe to be a common trope/prejudice used as a weapon in a brutal global campaign to persecute them.
   
   (It's difficult to be sure to what extent, exactly, that persecution narrative is rational. The fact that some amount of legal and social discrimination exists is undeniable. On the other hand, the idea that "cis" people regularly murder trans people after sleeping with them and then finding out their biological sex, likely belongs in the realm of conspiracy theories. Sure, there's probably a legitimate anecdote or two where such a thing happened, but the popular "1 in 12 trans people are murdered" factoid is quite obviously bogus. Nonetheless, many in the "online transgender twitter community" seem to honestly believe all of that, and thus understandably have a genuinely strong reaction to a limerick/joke which - when interpreted with the right assumptions - fits into that narrative.)

It's a matter of people with completely different paradigms and views of reality, colliding thanks to the Internet.

Group B thinks group A is out to get them, whereas group A does not believe that group B's emotional reactions are genuine.

[GNARLED_GRIZTLE]

this is sad im pretty sure you can choose a dialogue response about Aloth literally telling someone to **** their sister but some butthurt internet troll cries and the whole game has to change and whats up with 580 mb patch with this as the only note for changing a gravestone.  I still love you obsidian this game is the answer to my video game ADD but i think you should have made like Aloth on this one

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Alright, so I've gotten enough entertainment out of this; time to get serious.

 

 

Just FYI, I am a trans woman, and I was pretty displeased with that memorial, and was writing to Obsidian about it when I saw this update. I knew immediately which text they were talking about because, no, it's not just one crazy person on twitter - That joke was hateful and mean spirited.

 

 

mean–spirited : feeling or showing a cruel desire to cause harm or pain

 

I can't look into the author's mind, but I'm 95% sure that him writing the poem was not "mean spirited" at all. Everyone needs to chill a little more and not immediately assume malice on everyone else's part. This also goes for the people jumping to the conclusion that the complainants must be political campaigners with ulterior motives rather than actual fans of the game/genre.

 

My interpretation of what happened is this:

• Some "cis" person with little insight into the trans community wrote what he thought was an innocent joke, which in his mind likely did not attack trans people (the bud of the joke was the "cis" character who killed himself), and possibly wasn't even meant to refer to trans people at all (it could have been meant as two "cis" heterosexual men having sex unintentionally).

   

• However, the set-up of the joke happened to resonate with what members of the "online transgender twitter community" believe to be a common trope/prejudice used as a weapon in a brutal global campaign to persecute them.(It's difficult to be sure to what extent, exactly, that persecution narrative is rational. The fact that some amount of legal and social discrimination exists is undeniable. On the other hand, the idea that "cis" people regularly murder trans people after sleeping with them and then finding out their biological sex, likely belongs in the realm of conspiracy theories. Sure, there's probably a legitimate anecdote or two where such a thing happened, but the popular "1 in 12 trans people are murdered" factoid is quite obviously bogus. Nonetheless, many in the "online transgender twitter community" seem to honestly believe all of that, and thus understandably have a genuinely strong reaction to a limerick/joke which - when interpreted with the right assumptions - fits into that narrative.)

It's a matter of people with completely different paradigms and views of reality, colliding thanks to the Internet.

Group B thinks group A is out to get them, whereas group A does not believe that group B's emotional reactions are genuine.

Firedorn's response is here.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/75387-controversial-limerick-discussion-2/page-6?do=findComment&comment=1632654

 

"The joke wasn't targeted at trans-people, nor anyone in the LGBTQIA+ spectrum"

 

Sounds like some people got offended over nothing. Happens quite a bit.