Nerfing: You've GOT to be kidding me - get real Devs

[dirigible]

Changing mind blades, or the summon horn, or slicken, or ice fog or any of the other nerfs only primarily affects solo players.... it becomes irrelevant for large party players b/c there are still a ton of other options for people with a party that make them OP.

Lol what. You can use that argument no matter what they change.

"You nerfed Ranger marking??? This is clearly targeted towards solo players, since everyone else will have lots of other options!"

"You nerfed Monk's knockback strike??? This is clearly targeted towards solo players, since everyone else will have lots of other options!"

"You nerfed Chanter's healing aura??? This is clearly targeted towards solo players, since everyone else will have lots of other options!"

[Parsong]

RE the slicken nerf, get a priest in your party.

 

The level 2 symbol gives an AoE knockdown, and Level 4 Divine Pillar is an extra long lasting AoE knockdown too.

 

Druid/Cipher remain superior to Wizard, and this patch just widened the gap.  

[Luridis]

@OP Regarding the title of your post... What do you do for a living? Whatever it is I suspect that at some point you've done something someone else did'nt like. It's too bad that one of those people never went to your manager and said "get a real employee to replace him" because then you'd know exactly how your title sounds.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Luridis

[dirigible]

@OP Regarding the title of your post... What do you do for a living? Whatever it is I suspect that at some point you've done something someone else did'nt like. It's too bad that one of those people never went to your manager and said "get a real employee to replace him" because then you'd know exactly how your title sounds.

To be fair, I think he meant "get real" as in "stop being foolish".

[revjwh]

Thanks dirigible... I did.  I have no desire to see the actual people who make up Obsidian cave, fold or otherwise go away..... 

[Luridis]

Thanks dirigible... I did.  I have no desire to see the actual people who make up Obsidian cave, fold or otherwise go away..... 

 

Lol okay then... it sounded as if you were accusing them of not being actual game developers.

[Ichthyic]

 

So, I'm fighting 4 feral druids - you know, the ones who can change cast lighting strikes that stun you, do 50 points of damage, have a huge area of effect, and once you are hit w/a bolt and run out of the circle it follows you anyways.

 

Yet, the devs are going to nerf Slicken (to one target) and Mind Blades (which when my 5th level Cipher cast on them it made a 'dink' sound and didn't work anyways) ......

 

Are you kidding me?

 

Do you realize how many average gamers/casual gamers are rage quitting and reloading over and over and over.

 

I realize there are people who make spreadsheets and other crap to play this game - that is insane to me and any casual gamer who plays to have fun and has to balance it with real life.

 

Then there is the pride of 4 lions - elder lion and 3 others - who can roar, do 1/3rd of my 76 deflection fighter's health in a hit (1 lion) and get 3 hits in before I can cast one spell....

 

But, yeah, let's nerf the few available spells/abilities that can at least help a little bit.

 

I'm starting to get pissed.  

 

Don't tell me I don't know tactics.  I solo'd the whole first Act with a Cipher to teach myself the game .... I cleared Raedric's Hold by myself on normal with him (I know there are people doing it on PotD and Hard etc..... a few.....).  

 

I play to have fun.  I play to not have to reload 888888888888888888888 times.  

 

The number of ways a group of enemies can stunlock/freeze/daze your entire party is legion.  Meanwhile they sport deflection/defenses at level 3 that my 5th levels barely have...... yet, the devs want to nerf more.

 

I like the game's story, areas etc. but not sure I want to be forced to play a 6 man team (I was using 2-3 characters for the above druids and lions after solo-ing Act 1....) or face imminent destruction b/c the Devs decided to force feed me their concept of team play ......

 

Successor to the IE games?  Not by a long shot - the freedom in those was phenomenal.  PoE picks a narrow path and says: walk it.  Beginning with forcing me to have a huge party......

 

I completed BG2 with 3 different classes solo without tons of spam and my first play through, brand new to the game, I played it with a party of 3 and did just fine.

 

Rant off.

 

If BG2 had only come out last week you'd be raging on it for the exact same reasons. PoE is not harder than BG ou BG2, not in the slightest.

 

I still recall, 20 years later, getting slaughtered by fire arrows shot by goblins in the very first warehouse I entered in BG.

 

obviously, that made an impression.

 

BG, the original version, was very tough, it took many hours to overcome the learning curve and figure out where/what/when to attack things.

 

it's one of the things that made the game memorable.

 

also, I think with this game, like in BG, some people move too fast.  if you are fighting the lion pride, and you're level 3, you're underleveled, and surviving that fight SHOULD be very difficult and require much re-rolling (like trying to solo the bear in the cave at level 2).  not saying the OP was level 3 themselves when they did that fight, but with 76 deflection, it kinda sounds about right for level 3, and I have seen posts from several people claiming the game is too hard, when they were in areas that are populated by monsters twice their level.

 

I agree that grease (call it what it is) should not be changed in the way it works, as it is a classic spell.  instead, make the saves against it easier (say, give enemies +10 or more on their reflex throws), since it is a level 1 spell.  simple.  the idea of making it only trigger once goes down a bad path; sets a bad precedence.

 

basically, this game already wants you to bottleneck your enemies as your primary tactical method of dealing with numbers.  the more spells they nerf that affect movement speed, the more this will become your only reliable strategy.  that's no good.

 

In fact, it should be going the OTHER way.  things that cause hobbling status (like web) should be MORE effective.  make hobble cause your movement speed to go down to 25% of normal.  as it is, hobble is only noticeable as an effect over very long distances, and those are rare in this game.

 

open UP alternative tactical strategies, instead of closing them off.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Ichthyic

[guizhang]

playing on hard, and i've used both slicken and mind blade - but even post patch they still seem quite good lol. when i read the patch notes, i thought slicken was going to change to a spell like divine pillar where you have to select an enemy and then theres a small aoe around that enemy. but i can still target the ground with slicken? what's the difference

[rheingold]

And people wonder why the devs don't or can't possibly listen to the criticisms or ideas regarding changing, say attributes... They just have to read this thread to come away more confused than ever. Also with less faith in humanity...

[Archaven]

playing on hard, and i've used both slicken and mind blade - but even post patch they still seem quite good lol. when i read the patch notes, i thought slicken was going to change to a spell like divine pillar where you have to select an enemy and then theres a small aoe around that enemy. but i can still target the ground with slicken? what's the difference

 

It's a one hit. Meaning it could not occur twice or more which sounds reasonable. Otherwise that is just abusive.

[Trauma_Hound]

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

[Parsong]

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

The game is pretty easy (not that this is bad, the IE games were easier), so you can really get away with anything.

 

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

[Answermancer]

So then people played normal or higher - but suddenly the devs started reading the solo threads and nerfing anything that was helping play on the higher difficulties..... which is weird.

 

Everytime I start to think that the internet (the world?) isn't full of people with paranoid delusions and magical thinking someone swiftly comes along and proves me wrong.

 

Yes, yes child, you're totally right! The devs are watching your every move, they have a camera in your ceiling and they watch when you touch yourself play Pillars of Eternity and jot down copious notes about which spell to nerf next. Shhh, shhh now it's gonna be okay... it's gonna be okay as long as you KILL YOUR PARENTS take your medication and plaster wallpaper over the ceiling to cover up the cameras PLASTER THE CEILING WITH THEIR BLOOD!!!. Yeah, no worries just do what LORD SATAN COMMANDS I say and they'll never nerf your favorite spells ever again.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Answermancer

[Trauma_Hound]

 

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

The game is pretty easy (not that this is bad, the IE games were easier), so you can really get away with anything.

 

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

 

 

Let them be mad, this is what people get for bitching about balance. There's a command console to allow you to rebalance yourself as much as you want, also learning to mod things the way you want also helps in this regard. I find wizards to be powerful enough as is without slicken or chill fog.

[PrimeJunta]

 

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

The game is pretty easy (not that this is bad, the IE games were easier), so you can really get away with anything.

 

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

 

No it doesn't. It just fixed two broken spells. The buffs more than make up for those.

 

If you win games by finding the broken mechanics, then exploiting the bejeezus out of them, then moaning when they get fixed, you're denying yourself a lot of fun.

[CaravanMaster]

its called balance

[Katarack21]

 

 

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

The game is pretty easy (not that this is bad, the IE games were easier), so you can really get away with anything.

 

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

 

No it doesn't. It just fixed two broken spells. The buffs more than make up for those.

 

If you win games by finding the broken mechanics, then exploiting the bejeezus out of them, then moaning when they get fixed, you're denying yourself a lot of fun.

 

This is true. It is also fun to find real hard fights and, over time, figure out some really cheesy way to just dominate it. I just fought a bounty about five times, dying twice on the way up to it and three times inside the cave, before I figured a way to combine traps and seals in a narrow corridor with two tanks and some summoned creatures to make the enemy bunch up and then stack Wall of Fire and bouncing Rolling Flames along the corridor with alternating Lighting Bolts and Mind Lances to turn it into a meat grinder. Everybody except Aloth and my cipher died.

 

It was a lot of fun.

[Delicieuxz]

When everything is balanced into normalization, there is homogenization, and things becomes generic paste. It is a sometimes-necessary weakness of team-based multiplayer games when all aspects are made equal, but it takes away flavour, excitement, challenge, and motivation. There is no necessity to such a weakness in single-player experiences, and the advantage which some skills hold over others in the game is a part of what balances the whole game. Without those particular strengths, the game doesn't have as much that's producing poignant enjoyment.

 

Some characters are tanks - should tanks be balanced with mushies, so that there is only one class of character, that isn't particularly good or bad at what it does and what it doesn't do?

 

Mind Blades needed no nerfing. Nerfing Mind Blades is like changing Eder's sword into a dagger, or his neutralizing his defence capability. Those are the qualities that make him notable, and make him worthwhile.

 

Balance in single player is like a disease that rots the whole package. What is being balanced against? Not another human player. Balancing against the NPCs? Then why is the player let to complete the game? Clearly, in any scenario in which the human player can make it to the end of the game reliably, the game was not balanced. So what is being balanced against? A figment of the imagination that serves no purpose, only to take away from the satisfaction of engaging the game, and the satisfaction of having played it.

 

 

 

Do not be a hypocrite. If Mind Blades is balanced so that it is no longer a dependable tool, then do the same for tanks. Nerf tanks until they are no longer particular in their effectiveness. Balance!

Edited April 4, 2015 by Delicieuxz

[Trauma_Hound]

 

 

I'm playing on Hard with Expert mode on in my first play through, I've not ever used Slicken or Chill Fog and I'm using a human paladin as my main character, which everyone says is pretty gimpy in comparison to other classes. I'm managing just fine.

 

The game is pretty easy (not that this is bad, the IE games were easier), so you can really get away with anything.

 

The reason people are upset is because Wizard is already worse than Cipher/Druid and this just widens the gap.

 

No it doesn't. It just fixed two broken spells. The buffs more than make up for those.

 

If you win games by finding the broken mechanics, then exploiting the bejeezus out of them, then moaning when they get fixed, you're denying yourself a lot of fun.

 

 

Slicken was nerfed not fixed. Chill fog was fixed not nerfed. Nerfing is lazy and ruins something that could still have the potential to be effective. It's already been stated that it's a classic spell - Grease. Using Grease on a spell caster is quite a normal trick. The buffs don't make up for anything if you don't value them, also the nerfs don't harm in any way if you don't value them. Personally the "rebalancing" from what I've read just makes the game easier, and it certainly doesn't need to be easier.

[Trauma_Hound]

Besides, it's already been fixed. Here: http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/26/?

[Prideaux]

why does every gamer think every game should be for them. The DEVS chose their target market, and built the game for them, its up to everyone else to either adjust their gaming habits to suit it or go play something like DA:Inquistion that is so whitebread and safe it lacks any depth trying to walk that tightrope of mass sales/playability. no thanks

 

I for one like the fact that I have to reload over and over.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Prideaux

[Blovski]

Really, another thread by you with 'devs' in the title? Nothing wrong with some balance changes.

@Delicieuxz

Balance in single player is more a matter of pruning dominant strategies to allow other options to shine. XCOM's Long War mod and especially Desktop Dungeons' beta have been the two best examples of that I've seen. Things like Baldur's Gate II's magic invisibility staff (because equipping and unequipping it circumvented True Sight effects) or the high-end ToB Thief traps were balance flaws in a single player game that probably stopped me from having more fun working out alternative strategies because they were too easy.

On the other hand, say, Backstab just didn't work on most major targets in ToB because of magic defenses and arbitrary immunities, which is really frustrating.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Blovski

[PrimeJunta]

Slicken was nerfed not fixed. Chill fog was fixed not nerfed. Nerfing is lazy and ruins something that could still have the potential to be effective. It's already been stated that it's a classic spell - Grease. Using Grease on a spell caster is quite a normal trick. The buffs don't make up for anything if you don't value them, also the nerfs don't harm in any way if you don't value them. Personally the "rebalancing" from what I've read just makes the game easier, and it certainly doesn't need to be easier.

 

Trouble is Slicken worked nothing like Grease. Grease is not a particularly powerful spell. It mostly just imposes a movement penalty, with a relatively small chance of Prone (in the NWN games which implement that feature). Slicken was a near-guaranteed long-term group disable. To get something that effective you had to go to 8-9 level spells in the IE games.

 

In particular, Slicken was superior in every way to Binding Web which is level 2. It was just ridiculous.

 

They could have fixed it by keeping the duration and adjusting the numbers so that it'll only reliably knockdown very low-Reflex enemies. That however would still have made it superior to Binding Web, which would do more or less the same, minus the possibility to Knockdown. Which means they would have had to buff Binding Web somehow. I would've been perfectly OK with that approach too, but I don't think it's inherently better than what they did.

 

The P:E spells aren't copies of DnD spells. Many are similar to them, but few work exactly the same.

[PrimeJunta]

As an aside, methinks people who are upset about nerfs to a single spell, weapon, ability, or item are over-reliant on that particular spell, weapon, ability, or item. Explore your party's capabilities and use more of them, you'll enjoy it more. 

 

Plus, you won't be as upset if something gets nerfed -- and you'll enjoy it more when something else gets a buff.

[Maydawn]

Mind Blades was really overpowered. The fact that you could 2 shot [well, almost] with this every mob pack in the game made certain fights trivial. Balance is a matter of reaching a point where all classes feel on the same level of power. Cipher was way above that, with near instant extremely powerful spells, with no disadvantages to speak of.

 

I guess it's a personal matter though. Different players look at balance in a wide variety of opinions, even more so when it's about a single player experience.

 

The most important thing about balance, which isn't really up for debate in my opinion, is that all classes should feel powerful enough to handle the game, which isn't the case currently with monks [for example, from my experience], and I opened a topic about it to voice my concerns.

 

As a note a bit more related to the topic: I never used Slicken, or that fog thing. Just a couple of times I used fog, and I had no idea it doesn't affect my party members anyway, aimed it the same way as fireball. Nice enough spell, especially when you realize that outside the red circle your party members don't get hit and enemies still do

Edited April 4, 2015 by Maydawn