I feel offended do you?

[Guest BugsVendor]

Dear Obsidian,

 

Being a huge fan of titles like Baldur's Gate I took Path of the Damned difficulty simply so this wonderful experience would last as long as possible. I wanted to be forced to eat consumables and search for items that help with certain enemies and experience the game in it's full potential rather than just run through the game on normal without any serious challenge. The game still seemed too easy... Boring...

 

There is only one initial playthrough of the game and now that I am close towards the end I realised mine is ruined. I did a quick bug search and sure enough my Eder is overpowered due to stacking bug and the game is too easy. I also experienced other bugs like the Raedric Castle problem.

 

They way I see it yet again I was sold a car without a wheel. It is that simple. Yet another product in the gaming industry that is unfinished, rushed, clearly broken.

 

If this would be any other industry we would never hear the end of it. Just imagine calling help line of some company saying "You sold me a coffee machine that gives tea" and hearing "This is a known issue".

 

Do you know who buys these game right after the release or even pre order ? Your most dedicated fans. The new normal is to poke us in the eyes with a stick and turn us into slave testers.

 

I feel offended obsidian. The experience I bought from you is broken. You send a clear and loud message:

 

"DO NOT PRE ORDER" & "DO NOT BUY RIGHT AFTER RELEASE"

 

Regards,

 

exFan

 

 

 

 

[Plazmid]

Well,

 

Some of this is the result of Kickstarter mechanics.....

 

You make a pledge on Kickstarter (Most pledges include a digital copy of the game). And wait.

 

Unfortunately, unlike other methods of purchasing a game, now you have a few years to build your anticipation and expectations.....and, you have the rights to a copy of the game.

 

So, the game is coming down the pipe and release day happens. And, instead of pining at the store, you have the game, pre-downloaded via Steam or GOG. Kinda hard not to play when the game is in your hands, and you have 2+ years of anticipation built up. Imagine if you are the unlucky one who is exposed to some unpleasant bugs. This is the unfortunate other side of the blade of Kickstarter. Makes waiting for a patch all the more difficult, for different reasons.

 

Not to mention the other oddities of a Steam and Gog ecosystem. Now most developers can't just post a hot-fix, the game is under the control of Steam and Gog. Now, not only must you get the patch built, you must also work through Steam and Gog (as a developer) to integrate and post a patch. Not as easy as it looks. And, is much more friendly to the combine as many fixes into a patch practise. This way you don't waste your time constantly posting to Steam (and, I bet Steam charges for the posting....they are a business too.)

 

Wow, who woulda thunk how this type of technology and process would fundamentally change things like this...? Brave new world.

[Nyhilla]

 Brave new world

 That's my favorite map on HoMM3 multi ...

 

Anyway, I agree to some complains here, but on the other hand, people arguing that this is to be considered "normal", are not fully true either.

See, Like Plazmid said, they are the particularities of Kickstarter, and since you've waited 2 + years, you want to play it. So yeah, as someone said before, I'm too old now to be offended by that sort of "inconveniences", and to wait spùe days or week for a patch isn't going to kill me, but this is annoying, and I'm not "happy" with it.

 

Sure, we can wait, but since the game has been released,we want to play it, and not wait more. On the side card, we would had waited 2 more weeks without crying if the game hasn't been released. We were hopping to find minor bugs, not flagrant gamebreaking ones and complete. (Coming to mind, Raedric's hold, stats stack up, and those 2 items wich make the ciphers loose all their passive abilities and focus). How could they had not seen the loss of all focus regeneration while playing themselves a cipher with the Driniking horn of moderation equiped ? I mean, I equiped it, and saw immediatly that it was bugged, it was obvious.

 

Someone said, "It's normal that a game has bugs when they are released", well yes, sort of. It was not so manifest before, but more and more now that the industry press on. Still, we hoped, and we will continue to hope that a game will be released without major bugs, and not released by thinking that "We will hot fix this after we've released the game".

What if you come to me and ask me for some pilchard, beheaded and gutless, I sell them to you, removing their guts, thinking (I'll remove their heads when he'll be back at his home). Well I don't think you'll be too happy about it. Remember, you don't see what I'm doing, and you don't have to see what's inside your package till you're home. And I won't come for sure, so you'll come back to me and make some reclamations, that I'll promptly do.

Anyway, in this case, someone talked about communications and took exemple of Bioware (That I'm not fond off anymore). There is a lack of communcations, for that it is clear, and this is quite messy. And in my case, I was Obsidian, and I did not taken the pain to inform you that I didn't removed those heads, while another would had.

 

Anyhow, I know eveyone has their own point of view on every subject, their own experience, and that we'll never have the whole bunch of the conclave heading the same way. So we're here, trying to put our little seed in the pot because ...

Edited April 3, 2015 by Nyhilla

[Molcho]

Op is being a bit harsh in his consequence, but the gereal idea is right. 

 

There are many things in this game that are simply not functional or outright gamebreaking. Showstoppers have to be rooted out before release, and that's what testers are there for. 

 

In its current state, this game would not even have been released for, let's say, Playstation 4 or any Nintendo console. Quality control in computer gaming has been an issue since forever and it's getting only worse. The fact that players get trapped inside Raedric's Keep, that Cyphers lose their ability to regain Focus after equipping a certain item (which has been specifically made for them in the first place) and certain enemy spells will kill you, no matter what (Swarm of insects) are huge showstoppers that, for some reason, weren't found. 

 

The only conclusion to that is, that there was not enough (paid) testing. None of the testers who played a cypher ever equipped the horn or the amulet? None of them ever fought ogre druids? Nobody ever got on the good side of the Crucible Knights and the Dozens, which resulted in them not being able to be invited to the hearing by any of the two? These bugs are not even exclusive to certain operating systems/peripherals/hardware. They are there because testing the game apparently wasn't a big enough focus. 

 

There is no excuse for that and, as such, the op has it right. However, people have been waiting forever for this game and thankfully the game is still very much enjoyable despite all the bugs, so people tend to not complain as much as they should. There is, however, no reason to play the existing complaints down, because they are very much valid. You cannot figure out all the bugs before release, but you have to find those that prevent people from finishing the game. It's a simple rule that many developers/publishers/third party manufacturers adhere to and Obsidian should have done the same.

[Ferrante]

No, I don't feel offended. I was really angry when I realize I had the Supercompanion bug, but yeah, **** happens and they are not telling us they will let it like that. They are going to fix it and pretty soon. I'm still grateful they made the game we wanted and paid for, so I will be waiting for a patch that allows me return to play as soon as possible.

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

....

Does this look to you like they have been completely taken by surprise ? Like they thought that the game was done and perfect and now they are such poor little things working over hours especially for us customers.

 

....

really guys ? you claim you have no life because of patching and UNEXPECTED issues but you have time for new features ? 

 

......

 

You also had time to analyse feedback and data to improve the balance of the game in detail. Isn't that sweet. Just for us customers.

 

Seriously just have a look for yourself it goes on and on.

 

This is not an at hoc unexpected bug fix that should never have happened. This is a marketing decision to ship first and work on it later. And I feel like the outrage is justified.

 

Before any of you fan boys will say that I am clearly out of my mind hating the patch please note I am criticising policy of releasing INTENTIONALLY unfinished product.

 

It's good they at least patch it for now instead of grabbing the money and run.

 

   In a software project like this, you have a large team. When a bug is reported there are people who know the particular subsystems that cause the bug and they are the people who will fix it. The people looking at balance issues or writing glossary entries are different people. If they didn't put those things into the patch, it doesn't mean that the patch would happen faster. If the latter group of people worked on the bugs, the patch also wouldn't happen faster because the people who know the subsystems would have to help them instead of fixing the problems.

 

 The developers can't fix a bug that the QA testers never saw. I have seen two bugs in my game, the chanter traps bug and the Raedric's Hold bug. The other bugs that have been game breaking for you didn't happen to me at all. If I was a QA tester for Obsidian, I would not have reported those bugs because I never saw them. 

 

 Seriously, take a deep breath and think. It wasn't some nefarious plot to make off with your money; it was due to problems that didn't happen during testing. If bugs are going to raise your blood pressure, you really should wait for a few patches before you buy a game. You will live a happier life that way. 

 

 

   "In a software project like this, you have a large team. When a bug is reported there are people who know the particular subsystems that cause the bug and they are the people who will fix it. The people looking at balance issues or writing glossary entries are different people. If they didn't put those things into the patch, it doesn't mean that the patch would happen faster. If the latter group of people worked on the bugs, the patch also wouldn't happen faster because the people who know the subsystems would have to help them instead of fixing the problems."

 

I don't think you understand what is the point of this thread. It is about releasing a product that is not done and pretending that it is. Releasing new features, icons, glossary entries in first week shows that they know full well they are selling unfinished product. Going further with that thought they also knew there were bugs. They made a concious decision of selling broken product and they should apologise.

 

 

 

 

What do you get out of defending a half finished product that thousands of players are unwillingly beta testing?

I get the pleasure of knowing I'm mature and rational enough to wait a couple of weeks for some patches.

 

What's mature and rational about defending someone who treats you with disrespect? Obsidian (and many, many other devs) obviously hold a certain amount of disregard towards their own customers by essentially making them unpaid beta testers for their products, rather than actually polishing them before release (or, at minimum, warning people that the product in question is buggy).

 

 Yes, there are bugs. No, nobody is treating you disrespectfully. You are looking at the situation and imagining something that isn't happening. Nobody is sitting around at Obsidian counting your money and laughing at you. I know that you think they are, but they aren't. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can stop being offended at something that hasn't happened

 

 

...

Good for you. I believe you if you say you're not experiencing these bugs, but the rest of us are. And it's perfectly fine that we're pissed about it.

 

  So, you think that these bugs happened to the in-house testers and they ignored them and released the game anyway because they wished to treat you disrespectfully even though you have evidence that there are people in this thread who have played the game and not been affected by the bugs?

 

 Does that still sound rational when you actually say that out loud and include all of the information that you know now?

 

 

 "Yes, there are bugs. No, nobody is treating you disrespectfully. You are looking at the situation and imagining something that isn't happening. Nobody is sitting around at Obsidian counting your money and laughing at you. I know that you think they are, but they aren't. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can stop being offended at something that hasn't happened"

 

The situation right now is that I spent the money and got broken software for it. So they do have my money and I don't have what I wanted. I don't think they are laughing corporate commander style but who knows. The problem is they still use dedicated fans like myself as free beta testers.

 

  "So, you think that these bugs happened to the in-house testers and they ignored them and released the game anyway because they wished to treat you disrespectfully even though you have evidence that there are people in this thread who have played the game and not been affected by the bugs?

 

 Does that still sound rational when you actually say that out loud and include all of the information that you know now?"

 

I think they knew full well they are releasing an incomplete product and they knew full well they were going to patch it extensively for next few months using the fans as beta testers. 

 

 

OPRageKid has no clue about how game development works.

 

I'll explain it to you, in a way that you may come close to understanding it, maybe.

 

 

 

Imagine that your car stops running. It's an engine problem, and getting the new engine and installing it will take about a week. So the car will spend a week in the garage, unfortunately. However, while it's in the garage, the oil guy changes the oil, the tires guy puts better tires, and the paint guy fixes a couple of scratches on the sides, and even adds some cool details to it. 

 

Finally, the engine guys are done with the engine, and it's all installed. Now you go all mad "what the hell dude, instead of fixing my engine asap you stopped to paint the scratches and change the tires?!!!?!?!!oneSHIFT"

 

So that's what you're doing here.

 

See, not every developer can deal with every kind of problem. So while the developer in charge of  X bug is dealing with that, some other is taking the time to actually keep moving the game forward in another field. Even if every damn developer worked AT ONCE on one absolute priority game-breaking bug, progress wouldn't be much faster, if at all, because generally it's one person that must edit the game version and write down the code, otherwise the different people manipulating the code would just step on each other's toes and end up messing up.

 

Anyway, pretty clear from your post count that you're just a troll that probably downloaded the game from a torrent, so if you're not happy, go away. The people who value the game and invested on it seem, in their majority, quite fine with how Obsidian is handling it.

 

 

First of all "OpRageKid" has every right to complain if he buys a broken product.

 

It is not my concern how game development works. Just like it is not your concern how radio signals travels to satellites and back so you can watch cat videos. You still call your provided 0.0000053434 seconds after your connection stops working.

 

Your personal attacks are suggesting that you are the op rage kid and a troll.

 

It is border line simple. They released a broken product. It is they responsibility to test and root out at least major problems. They clearly didn't.

 

There will always be minor and major bugs on release. It is inevitable, since as many ppl posted, bugs and problems with PC games vary wildley from one machine to the next. Some bugs are consistent on all systems, while others are unique to some components. Not to mention that BETA TESTING does not involve 100.000 ppl but rather, a fraction of that number, so accounting for every instability during a beta test is impossible.

 

As for "good old times" when games "were released when they were done and not a moment too soon", I am confused... Was that before or after computers were invented?

 

Because no matter how much I love some old games, they were as bugy as most games of today... (ok slightly less bugy). Anyone who played Fallout 1/2 knows how painfully bugy both games were... Baldur's Gate series? A ton of bugs, some of which were never actually fixed unless you downloaded all official updates, then the unofficial comunity patch and finally a specific mod... Gothic 1? Buged as hell, Gothic 2, even worse, Gothic 3, a disaster at release day. Sacred 1? The game infamous for it's "wasser" console cheat, needed to progress the main quest. VTM: Bloodlines? Where you had to use a teleport cheat code to progress the story, and most skills were broken. Starcraft 1? Where ppl demonstrated new bugs during official tournaments?

 

Were those games bad? Hell no!!! I loved every second of them and I still play them from time to time when I get nostalgic. The only difference was the gaming comunity was much smaller back then, not to mention a lot more civilized... Most ppl back then were content to play their games and occasionally post on forums if they encounterd some rather gamebreaking bug to ask for a workaround untill the patch comes out. Today I find ppl on forums posting questions such as "where can I check my skills" because they didn't even bother to look for them in game. Posts about bugs where ppl scream "why no one mentioned this" even if a post about the issue is staring them in the face, but they didn't bother reading through it because it was 2 pages long?

 

Bottom line is: STOP WHINING! If you can't wait for 24h for a patch to come out do something more productive with your time than flame all accross the forums about "being dissapointed, offended and emotionally hurt". IF YOU LIKE THE GAME play it anyway and help devs pinpoint and solve all the issues. And if you feel like "I didn't pay to be a beta tester" GO DO SMETHING ELSE UNTIL THE PATCH IS OUT!!!

 

Ok rant over, back to playing...

 

Nobody minds minor bugs. Sure we have common sense. But stats stacking, disappearing inventory and double clicking and Raedric's Hold these are all MAJOR bugs that basic Q&A should stumble upon. And again I don't care how they do it. They put a product on a shop shelf they should make sure it works.

 

Please note also that most of those bugs have nothing to do with variety of systems and drivers and such. They are logical bugs in the design.

 

Yeah all those old game were cool and buggy. This one is too fun and buggy. I still have every right to protest releasing unfinished product. Even if it looks good and plays fun.

 

Whining is exactly what you do. I express my disregard with the company release policy.

 

And bottom line is this. I bought something it doesn't work. In any other industry consumers would be outraged. Somehow gaming industry has it's own logic.

 

They more we let it slip each time they worse the games become. Simple economics.

[Stahlbart]

 

 

 It should be common sense to not buy game immediately at launch if you can't handle bugs, If you've followed the gaming scene at all.

 

That is a very sad development then. Considering this is a kickstarter project.

 

What do you mean? I thought being a ks project means less money which in turns means less time for testing and quality assurance.

 

 

And I thought, being a kickstarter game means having no publisher forcing a deadline, meaning having more time to test. Plus they have THOUSANDS of beta testers.

As I said, I supposed that's the point in kickstarter. Getting a finished game, EXACTLY as the developers want it to be. And I at least guess, they want a bug-free game, too.

I find it alarming that so many people trivialize the fact that, obviously, I have to wait "a couple of month" before a game is even playable.

I won't argue here, because you won't convince people of your opinion on the internet. I can only express myself.

And one thing left:

the patch doesn't fix everything at all. It really seems that it was planned to release many patches before the product is finished. even adding more features in the future.

 

 I can wait another week. Patience is a virtue!

 

I can wait too. But it's not ok to sell a game as finished, when it is OBVIOUSLY not.

 

Time's changed and in the future, I'll think more than twice before backing, or pre-ordering a game ever again.

When the vast majority is ok with buying unfinished, buggy games, I'll just wait a couple of month, til I get the product that was advertised.

Like I said, sad development considering crowd funding should IMO prevent that.

 

Im' not trying to bash the game or even Obsidian in any way. I'm just confused how I missed this development in the gaming industry. Maybe I was just blind? Dunno.

 

Im' out now trying to modifiy my save to change my rogue so he's playable (for me).

[Yonjuro]

 

 

....

 

  ...

 

   "In a software project like this, you have a large team...."

 

I don't think you understand what is the point of this thread. It is about releasing a product that is not done and pretending that it is. Releasing new features, icons, glossary entries in first week shows that they know full well they are selling unfinished product. Going further with that thought they also knew there were bugs. They made a concious decision of selling broken product and they should apologise.

 

 I understand completely; I just don't agree. You seem to think that you've just constructed a logical argument. You haven't. Adding features doesn't mean that they knew about the specific bugs that you are seeing. They may have decided that launching the game without all of the glossary entries etc. was better than waiting a week to launch (and, if you were on the forums pre-launch, I think you would have found that many people would have agreed with that decision).You don't know what bugs, if any, they were aware of prior to release. 

 

...

I think they knew full well they are releasing an incomplete product and they knew full well they were going to patch it extensively for next few months using the fans as beta testers. 

 

 Yes, it's very clear what you think. You think that bugs, which don't show up for everybody, did show up during testing and Obsidian made a decision to release the game without fixing them. You think this even though you have no evidence of it.

 

 You are imagining a series of events that happened at Obsidian during development when, in fact, these events have only happened in your imagination. Feel free to be offended at your imaginary events if you want but you will probably live a happier life if you don't make up reasons to be offended.

 

 Finally, as a thought experiment: how many games do you think have never been patched because they had no bugs in their initial release? Think of a number that answers that question. Then look up the actual number.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Yonjuro

[Guest BugsVendor]

I keep reading all the stuff that got broken after the patch release and I'm feeling like the original kick starter backers.

 

I put money up for a project and I have no guarantee it will ever work.

 

anyone still have any doubt that the release decision was hasty?

 

I reckon there will be months of heavy patching before the game become a product it should be before the official release. 

[sparklecat]

"All the stuff."

[Troy4747]

 

 

 

This is why internet posts/forums tend be terrible.  I highly doubt you'd say such a rant to any of the developers if you met them in person.  Put yourselves in their shoes. You worked on a project for years, and now because of a few (admittedly frustrating bugs), you have some fan who did nothing more than put some of his money down say he's offended and crap all over the years of work, energy, and creativity you and all your co-workers/friends put into this product...all for his benefit.  

 

I understand being disappointed. Having waited so long for a sequel to the fallout/bg/icewind dale/torment classics, which I consider this game to be, it's frustrating that the gameplay experience in the first week has been sullied by bugs and performance issues.  But just as I played those games countless times, I'll replay this game too. They're working on a patch, and have plans for further patches (turn based mode in 1.10).  

 

So some disappointment/frustration about having to wait a bit more to get a more bugfree experience, sure. But offended? Give me a break.

 

I'm afraid you missed the point of this discussion.

 

They all work and put energy into their product because it will bring them money and they most likely enjoy doing it as well. Good for them.

 

you have some fan who did nothing more than put some of his money down

 

 

What more should I do? paying the money as a customer is not good enough according to you? Should I send them a letter? Should I beta test it? What is enough for a customer to do?

 

They advertise the game as a finished product and yet it is not. Someone made the decision to ship the game knowing full well it's bugged, unbalanced, having a backlog of things yet to publish and I am protesting about it.

 

There were more options to go for. They could have announced open beta for a period of time.

 

 

 

Your op says you're offended because a stacking bug made the game more easy than it was designed to be.  And you're offended as a result?  If I buy a ticket to a horror movie, am I entitled to be offended if it wasn't scary enough, or if it was too scary? There's no guarantee you'll be entertained, or your personal measure of what is 'difficult enough' will be satisfied.  Having personally solo'd Baldur's gate trilogy, etc., I don't know how you can claim this game isn't more difficult than those classics were. Regardless, offended? Pick a new word. Is it really offensive to you? If so, you're too easily offended.  Even as is, game is better than most other rpg's, and the writing is outstanding.

 

I think paying money does entitle one to expect a working product, so the bugs as to performance/quest breaking etc., I think are of a more serious nature.  But offended because the game was easier than you thought it should be on your first play through? Again, give me a break.

 

Last, if you think people get into the game development industry to make money, re-think that. 

 

 

Your don't get it do you ?

 

It works like this. They know game is unfinished and buggy. They release it anyway and pretend it is finished so that people spend $. I buy it. I play it. I beta test for them unwillingly.

 

I find this offensive.

 

If buy a bike I want to ride it NOW. Not in 2 weeks not in 3 months now.

 

I know there is a lot good things about this game but this topic is not about it. It is about simple honesty in game industry these days.

 

 

But:

 

1) No one made you buy this game, or buy it now, nor have I seen any promise by Obsidian that this game is bug free. There are news stories pointing out these bugs, and Obsidian has a very old reputation for releasing buggy games.

2) There are return policies if you're so truly offended. Get your money back and go somewhere else.

3) Products are released with bugs all the time. Cars, strollers, games, etc. Recalls, firmware upgrades, software patches, security updates, etc. Several AAA console games released last fall were fundamentally broken.

4) They've released a patch in week 1 that fixed the biggest bugs....so have some patience.

5) Again, I doubt you'd say this stuff to Feargus Urquhart or any other Obsidian employee's face. 

6) The game design itself is not poor or fundamentally broken.  This is not Rome 2. But for a few minor (now fixed) bugs, Pillars is a very polished product with very intelligent design decisions and excellent writing.  Say what you will critically about its style, plots, etc., but this is clearly an above average game made by people who are very skilled at their craft.

 

 

Internet trolls.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Troy4747

[DocDoomII]

Even if they don't have a publisher that pushes for release, after a while the money from the kickstarter and their personal funds will end.

Then what? Do they go on developing under some shoddy bridge with fake cardboard-box computers?

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

 

 

 

This is why internet posts/forums tend be terrible.  I highly doubt you'd say such a rant to any of the developers if you met them in person.  Put yourselves in their shoes. You worked on a project for years, and now because of a few (admittedly frustrating bugs), you have some fan who did nothing more than put some of his money down say he's offended and crap all over the years of work, energy, and creativity you and all your co-workers/friends put into this product...all for his benefit.  

 

I understand being disappointed. Having waited so long for a sequel to the fallout/bg/icewind dale/torment classics, which I consider this game to be, it's frustrating that the gameplay experience in the first week has been sullied by bugs and performance issues.  But just as I played those games countless times, I'll replay this game too. They're working on a patch, and have plans for further patches (turn based mode in 1.10).  

 

So some disappointment/frustration about having to wait a bit more to get a more bugfree experience, sure. But offended? Give me a break.

 

I'm afraid you missed the point of this discussion.

 

They all work and put energy into their product because it will bring them money and they most likely enjoy doing it as well. Good for them.

 

you have some fan who did nothing more than put some of his money down

 

 

What more should I do? paying the money as a customer is not good enough according to you? Should I send them a letter? Should I beta test it? What is enough for a customer to do?

 

They advertise the game as a finished product and yet it is not. Someone made the decision to ship the game knowing full well it's bugged, unbalanced, having a backlog of things yet to publish and I am protesting about it.

 

There were more options to go for. They could have announced open beta for a period of time.

 

 

 

Your op says you're offended because a stacking bug made the game more easy than it was designed to be.  And you're offended as a result?  If I buy a ticket to a horror movie, am I entitled to be offended if it wasn't scary enough, or if it was too scary? There's no guarantee you'll be entertained, or your personal measure of what is 'difficult enough' will be satisfied.  Having personally solo'd Baldur's gate trilogy, etc., I don't know how you can claim this game isn't more difficult than those classics were. Regardless, offended? Pick a new word. Is it really offensive to you? If so, you're too easily offended.  Even as is, game is better than most other rpg's, and the writing is outstanding.

 

I think paying money does entitle one to expect a working product, so the bugs as to performance/quest breaking etc., I think are of a more serious nature.  But offended because the game was easier than you thought it should be on your first play through? Again, give me a break.

 

Last, if you think people get into the game development industry to make money, re-think that. 

 

 

Your don't get it do you ?

 

It works like this. They know game is unfinished and buggy. They release it anyway and pretend it is finished so that people spend $. I buy it. I play it. I beta test for them unwillingly.

 

I find this offensive.

 

If buy a bike I want to ride it NOW. Not in 2 weeks not in 3 months now.

 

I know there is a lot good things about this game but this topic is not about it. It is about simple honesty in game industry these days.

 

 

But:

 

1) No one made you buy this game, or but it now, nor have I seen any promise by Obsidian that this game is bug free. There are news stories pointing out these bugs.

2) There are return policies if you're so truly offended. Get your money back and go somewhere else.

3) Products are released with bugs all the time. Cars, strollers, games, etc. Recalls, firmware upgrades, software patches, security updates, etc. Several AAA console games released last fall were fundamentally broken.

4) They've released a patch in week 1 that fixed the biggest bugs....so have some patience.

5) Again, I doubt you'd say this stuff to Feargus Urquart or any other Obsidian employee's face. 

 

Internet trolls.

 

 

1)  "nor have I seen any promise by Obsidian that this game is bug free"

 

I don't think you read the whole thread and I don't blame you because it is lengthy. It was established that nobody minds minor bugs. These are bound to happen and it's OK to load the game sometimes because of that. However there were major , game - breaking bugs on the release and it was unacceptable because this game being a commercial product is expected to work if I take it of the shelf. If you would buy a bike and it wouldn't work you would complain.

 

2) That's correct. Still I can voice my opinion can't I? 

 

3) That's a non argument. If you sell something and it doesn't work it's wrong. No matter how many times that happen.

 

4) Patience have nothing to do with that. If I buy a bike I want to ride it now. Not in 2 weeks. Not in a month. Now. That's logical isn't it ?

    It is unacceptable to sell something that doesn't work. They failed. Still they repaired the mistake in a week. Could have been worse, that's for sure.

 

5) I can set up a live skype conference right this moment and read out loud everything I have ever posted here.

 

6) nowhere in this thread did I attack the game itself. Just the horrible, rushed release.

 

Expressing an opinion makes me a troll ?

Edited April 6, 2015 by BugsVendor

[Guest BugsVendor]

Even if they don't have a publisher that pushes for release, after a while the money from the kickstarter and their personal funds will end.

Then what? Do they go on developing under some shoddy bridge with fake cardboard-box computers?

 

They can make an honest move, release the game and announce it as an open beta. You Know, youtube video saying it's there for sale if you want it but we are routing out the bugs for next 2 months so prepare for some problems. They didn't. They pretended it was all good. It wasn't I was so disappointed I started this topic.

[Katarack21]

No, if you sell something and it's incapable of performing it's basic functions for the majority of people who bought it, it's wrong. A few uncaught bugs that cause problems for a small portion of the population is not only not wrong, it's normal and expected and they are legally protected because of that.

[Guest BugsVendor]

No, if you sell something and it's incapable of performing it's basic functions for the majority of people who bought it, it's wrong. A few uncaught bugs that cause problems for a small portion of the population is not only not wrong, it's normal and expected and they are legally protected because of that.

 

Just like stacking bug and double click bug that affected EVERYONE.

[Katarack21]

 

No, if you sell something and it's incapable of performing it's basic functions for the majority of people who bought it, it's wrong. A few uncaught bugs that cause problems for a small portion of the population is not only not wrong, it's normal and expected and they are legally protected because of that.

 

Just like stacking bug and double click bug that affected EVERYONE.

 

Not everyone. I was bug-free, minus a single crash in Raedrics hold and some issues with the journal timing etc. I didn't have the stat bug or the stacking bug, at any point, and those bugs were fixed within a week of release.

 

It doesn't really matter what you say. The majority of players experienced a fairly smooth gameplay with only minor issues; this is why the forums weren't flooded with tens of thousands of people saying the game doesn't work.

 

This wasn't VtM:B, KOTOR 2, or ToEE. No matter what you say, it will never be an "incomplete game" or a "failed launch" because the sheer reality of the situation is that most purchasers didn't experience anything like that.

 

YOU did. YOU had the bugs and issues, and so did some other people. That sucks, and I feel sorry for you, and I'm glad that Obsidian is working to fix these problems. But don't try to shove your experience onto other peoples.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Katarack21

[DocDoomII]

Affected a lot of people who posted in the technical support forum.

 

I had no stacking and no double clicking (never even occurred to me to double click) during the portion of the game I played.
And I save/load a lot.

 

I know because I checked the stats after reading about the bug. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

 

 

Edit:

oh but I had 2 crashes during start up, just a moment before the main menu.

Edited April 6, 2015 by DocDoomII

[invizo]

80 Hrs in and didn't care about cRPGs anymore until March 20th, 2015.

 

Game is a polished gem when compared against everything released post 2000, Original Sin and Wasteland 2 lack depth in story, immersion, and combat by comparison.  I also felt like Obsidian did a good job at reducing the reading amount compared to the older games.

Edited April 6, 2015 by invizo

[Guest BugsVendor]

80 Hrs in and didn't care about cRPGs anymore until March 20th, 2015.

 

Game is a polished gem when compared against everything released post 2000, Original Sin and Wasteland 2 lack depth in story, immersion, and combat by comparison.  I also felt like Obsidian did a good job at reducing the reading amount compared to the older games.

 

Don't want to come out as rude but I can't see how it has anything to do with this thread . Game is tones of fun - still they had a horrible bugged release that's all.

[Allamagoosa]

80's hours in, no bugs of any sort. Game isn't broken. You're just unlucky.

Or perhaps you are lucky and the rest of us just have normal luck. The game has a great story and feel to it except for the bugs. Especially the one that doesn't let me load in saved games.

[Ichthyic]

 

It doesn't really matter what you say. The majority of players experienced a fairly smooth gameplay with only minor issues; this is why the forums weren't flooded with tens of thousands of people saying the game doesn't work.

*looks at the literal flood of posts in this forum about all the bugs, game breaking and otherwise, and triple that on the steam forum...*

 

uh, anyone ever tell you you have a very special view on reality before?

 

if not, let me be the first.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2015 by Ichthyic

[christian.weinz]

Offended? No. However, I am deeply disappointed.

 

I didn't touch the beta because I expect from a game like PoE immersion. Bugs ruin immersion.

 

After only 10 hours of playing I already found various bugs.

• permanently distorted formations
• absurd prices
• infinite reputation
• graphical glitches
• ...

If you didn't experience those or others, just take a look in this subforum. There are many bugs reported.

 

Obsidian ruined my first impression of PoE by releasing it even though it wasn't ready for prime time.

 

The official stable release is a promise. That promise wasn't kept. Now it's up to Obsidian to restore lost trust.

[Ichthyic]

I keep reading all the stuff that got broken after the patch release and I'm feeling like the original kick starter backers.

 

I put money up for a project and I have no guarantee it will ever work.

 

anyone still have any doubt that the release decision was hasty?

 

I reckon there will be months of heavy patching before the game become a product it should be before the official release. 

reminds me a lot of Fallout: New Vegas.

 

Obsidian is very creative, has some decent artists... is terrible at managing quality control.  It's really hard to strike that balance in a developer house, I know, I was in that grinder for 6 years in the 90s.  worked for both kinds of developers:

 

-very creative artsty developers with tons of talent dripping off them, but couldn't code for crap.

-teams of basically code monkeys who could hack the DOJ, but had no creative vision and poor artistic skills, and run by a business-minded bureaucracy that actualy did its unintentional best to entirely stifle creative talent.

 

both companies failed, and I had the "pleasure" to experience both.

 

Obsidian has a long history of releasing products with tons of irritating bugs in them, and that, plus the choice of the unity engine for this game (which is why the performance requirments are so high, and why it is a huge resource hog), tells me they lean towards the creative side, and have been slacking on their code monkeys and spending money on real testers.

 

You'd think learning from previous errors would be the idea here, but even going to the kickstarter model, nothing seems to have changed.  Here's hoping independent developers realize you actually have to budget for real code testers... you can't just rely on volunteers.

 

yes, making a good game is bloody expensive.  You know, a few years back the proposed MINIMUM budget for producing Baldur's Gate III was... 25 million.  anyone in the industry knows that this is not nearly as much money as most people think it is.  even our 30 man dev team in the 90s ran 1 million per month budgets when in full swing.

 

makes me wonder if a real budget to produce a properly vetted and coded original game, with its own engine, is simply no longer feasible. 

 

And, if that's the case, maybe this IS the best one can do with the budgets one can realistically get.

 

I hope not. 

 

 

 

 

[Plazmid]

 

80 Hrs in and didn't care about cRPGs anymore until March 20th, 2015.

 

Game is a polished gem when compared against everything released post 2000, Original Sin and Wasteland 2 lack depth in story, immersion, and combat by comparison.  I also felt like Obsidian did a good job at reducing the reading amount compared to the older games.

 

Don't want to come out as rude but I can't see how it has anything to do with this thread . Game is tones of fun - still they had a horrible bugged release that's all.

 

I have to agree with what appears to be the baseline premise of BugsVendor.

 

This game seems to have been released prematurely. At least that is the retrospective view now.

 

Yonjuro also made an excellent point in that we, as the end-users and enjoyers of this game, can't be 100% sure of what Obsidian knew, and did not know, about how the game would fare in our hands. We really can't be sure can we, that Obsidian released the game knowing parts were broken? There are some indications, yes, but I wouldn't bet my mortgage on it. And, what about Obsidian's vested interest in the success of this game? Their business success depends on the success of this game. And from what I've seen, they have truly poured blood, sweat, and tears into this. It doesn't make any sense to me that if Obsidian intended to hoodwink us, why did they put any effort at all into this? Wouldn't it have been easier (and less expensive for them) to have kept the game unfinished for as long as possible so they could run off with the money?

 

All the evidence I've seen so far seems to point in the direction of good faith from Obsidian. I truly believe that they thought this game was release-worthy, and were not anticipating the volume and types of problems that we are seeing now. And, for those who are willing to try to understand, this game is not a toaster. It has been designed to run on multiple platforms (Linux, Mac, WIndows) using Unity. There were bound to be problems that you just can't anticipate. Not to mention probably lines of code into the 100s of thousands, if not more. This game is really complex. But, they have been willing to listen and patch their game. They are trying, and I can see it.

 

Those of you having problems have every cause to be frustrated and disappointed.

 

However, rather than gather pitchforks and torches, wouldn't it be more effective to support Obsidian in the hopes that they can fix the problems? Dead companies can't fix anything. Sacred 2 anyone?

[Matt516]

^ Yup. Do note that if you think any cRPG is released without major bugs, you're sadly mistaken. They fixed the major ones in the week 1 patch, and there's another patch coming. This game isn't squeaky clean where bugs are concerned, certainly not. But it's not in a terrible place either. Most people are encountering few or no bugs. You'll hear about those who are on this forum and you won't hear about those who aren't. It's that simple.