Why does fan of flames do so much damage?

[Bollockoff]

"I hate thing because it was different in D&D".

[Creslin321]

"I hate thing because it was different in D&D".

 

No...

 

Just pointing out that it's imbalanced to the point of being useless.

 

I mean you can argue about positioning with fan of flames and Fireball, but what about Fireball and Noxious Blast?  Which are both the same level, but Noxious blast is better is just about every regard? 

[dirigible]

Strategically it's more powerful because you can use it safely in more situations. Tight rooms and corridors where your Wizard can't find a gap? Fireball. Too close to an enemies engagement radius? Fireball. If it did as much or more damage than Fan you would never use Fan again. 

Why would I use Fireball, when I can use Noxious Blast?

 

Fireball isn't just weak compared to Fan of Flames. It's weak period.

[KingNee]

Honestly, if you simply swapped the damage values for Fan of Flames and Fireball I think it would be fixed. Makes me wonder if it's legit a bug.

 

I don't agree, you have to take ease of use into account. Fireball is much easier to use and thus spam so it should have heavily moderated damage as a direct cause. 

Fan of flames might legitimately be overpowered but I haven't used it much because of its range. 

[TheUsernamelessOne]

"I hate thing because it was different in D&D".

 

No, actually, when we're talking about Wizard spells we're talking about one of the aspects of Pillars that is taken from D&D pretty much wholesale, except for the changes they made to try and nerf them (no more summon spells, no buffing outside of combat). Except they made burning hands far more powerful (multiply AoE by x2 or x3, average damage by more than x20, depending on your Intellect and Might) and drastically weakened fireball (reduce range to 10m, divide AoE by half).

[dirigible]

 

Honestly, if you simply swapped the damage values for Fan of Flames and Fireball I think it would be fixed. Makes me wonder if it's legit a bug.

 

I don't agree, you have to take ease of use into account. Fireball is much easier to use and thus spam so it should have heavily moderated damage as a direct cause. 

Fan of flames might legitimately be overpowered but I haven't used it much because of its range. 

 

I have to disagree. Wizards can only cast each level of spells 4 times. That's a heavy limitation, which means I'm going to want to get the absolute most out of every single spell.

 

Using a weak spell because it's slightly easier to use isn't something I'm going to do. I'm either going to hold onto that spellcast for another time, or I'll spend the effort setting up proper positioning.

[KingNee]

 

 

Honestly, if you simply swapped the damage values for Fan of Flames and Fireball I think it would be fixed. Makes me wonder if it's legit a bug.

 

I don't agree, you have to take ease of use into account. Fireball is much easier to use and thus spam so it should have heavily moderated damage as a direct cause. 

Fan of flames might legitimately be overpowered but I haven't used it much because of its range. 

 

I have to disagree. Wizards can only cast each level of spells 4 times. That's a heavy limitation, which means I'm going to want to get the absolute most out of every single spell.

 

Using a weak spell because it's slightly easier to use isn't something I'm going to do. I'm either going to hold onto that spellcast for another time, or I'll spend the effort setting up proper positioning.

 

 

There are a ton of fights in the game where you don't get to properly position, are you gonna use fan of flames when ambushed? Most likely not, unless you like to roast your own crew.

[Bollockoff]

I've not had a look at Noxious Blast honestly. But calling Fireball useless in any context is moronic. I'm quite happy launching it at a group of Forest Trolls as their about to hit the front line.

 

 

 

"I hate thing because it was different in D&D".

 

No, actually, when we're talking about Wizard spells we're talking about one of the aspects of Pillars that is taken from D&D pretty much wholesale, except for the changes they made to try and nerf them (no more summon spells, no buffing outside of combat). Except they made burning hands far more powerful (multiply AoE by x2 or x3, average damage by more than x20, depending on your Intellect and Might) and drastically weakened fireball (reduce range to 10m, divide AoE by half).

 

 

Why is this an issue again? Because the number in the spell book says it's two levels higher and so should melt suns?

[Tartantyco]

 

Fireball is easier to target, has a much larger AoE, and is much faster to cast. Fan of Flames requires positioning to even be usable. You either have to spend time running around the flank to get it off, use the far smaller Foe Only AoE, or have a frontline Wizard to use FoF.

 

What about noxious blast then?  Which is the same level as fireball, has the same AoE, but also causes sicken, has longer range, and does more damage.

 

 

Let's not try to balance the entirety of Wizard spells in this thread. Fan of Flames is balanced in relation to Fireball.

[Mashiki]

 

But it's not. The only reason Fireball was a gamble in BG was because you had to get a feel for the radius.

 

So you're saying that because they show the fan radius it's not as dangerous.  I disagree with that assessment though, but that's fine.

[Bollockoff]

Fireball isn't dangerous at all because you can clearly see if it's going to hit your own guys.

[endruwiggin]

thanks for the headsup i never noticed that!

gonna take it out of my grimoure (however u spell it)

[dirigible]

Fan of Flames is balanced in relation to Fireball.

 

Disagree.

Fan of Flames has a larger AOE, deals more damage, and (at lower levels) can be used more frequently. Despite being a level one spell.

 

Saying that higher level spells shouldn't be more powerful is just silly. I mean for god's sake just look at the missile spells. Each one is clearly designed to be better than the previous one. Or the priest's Cure Wounds spells, which simply increase in healing done as they get higher level. There was obviously an intent for spells to become more powerful as you level up.

 

 

I've not had a look at Noxious Blast honestly. But calling Fireball useless in any context is moronic. I'm quite happy launching it at a group of Forest Trolls as their about to hit the front line.

Well I have some bad news. Noxious Blast deals MUCH more damage, has longer range, and causes Weaken, on hit.

Edited March 30, 2015 by dirigible

[Tanred]

I think Fan of Flames is overpowered and so is Slicken. Not comparing it to Fireball but to other 1st level wizard spells. But yeah, FoF might be quite hard to use in close quarters.    

Edited March 30, 2015 by Tanred

[Katarack21]

You have to remember damage isn't the only thing about the spell. I barely ever use Fan of Flames, myself, because it's very high damage output is actually a problem since it's nearly impossible to *not* hit half my party with it. In my game, Aloth mainly uses Rolling Flames and Lightening Bolt--mostly the Rolling Flames for pulling, to be honest. I use Bouncing Missile a lot, and Magic Missile, and Necrotic Lance--and his . I only really use Fan of Flames if I've hit the Godzilla threshold.

[Althernai]

I think Fan of Flames is overpowered and so is Slicken. Not comparing it to Fireball but to other 1st level wizard spells. But yeah, FoF might be quite hard to use in close quarters.    

Other way around: many Wizard spells are either borderline useless or at least significantly less useful than the various techniques of other classes. Fan of Flames and Slicken are two of the spells that make Wizards a viable class and they come with significant drawbacks. Fan of Flames basically requires the Wizard to be just shy of melee range and not behind a party member. Slicken lasts something like 8 seconds and does not do any damage to speak of.

[Lightzy]

 

Josh Sawyer designed it that because it's harder to land a Fan of Flames than a Fireball, thus it should do more damaged. he mentioned this during a tumbler or twitter response IIRC.

 

Ooooh, okay, so that's how balance works. When you're balancing a first level spell against a third level one, the third level one should be inferior to compensate for being potentially more difficult to cast without catching your party members in it.

 

 

 

I'm afraid most ppl didn't understand the joke Sir.

The thing is, this game is build so much around the principle of "make everything a valid choice" that it just breaks apart in almost every place. Equipment, spells, skills, stats, it all barely held together by the missguided hardline "make everything valid" approach.

Sad, but whatever.

 

[Jerm]

I feel it is imbalanced if you can get off a good FoF.

 

There is a risk reward element to it also. With its short range, your mage would be in danger of getting engaged in melee. Having him in front would probably mean your party formation is not in its optimal position when battle starts.

 

If battle has already started. Its use is also more situational than fireball. Battles might be at a choke point with your mage behind, and FoF is not possible at all unless you wanna go yolo...Alternatively, in an open battle, the amount of time to move your caster from the back lines to the flank to cast a FoF, you could get off a couple of spells in those times. That's still considering your mage is at risk being in front.

 

I hope i'm wrong and there's a better way to position/use FoF? Do share with me

[TheUsernamelessOne]

I've not had a look at Noxious Blast honestly. But calling Fireball useless in any context is moronic. I'm quite happy launching it at a group of Forest Trolls as their about to hit the front line.

 

 

 

"I hate thing because it was different in D&D".

 

No, actually, when we're talking about Wizard spells we're talking about one of the aspects of Pillars that is taken from D&D pretty much wholesale, except for the changes they made to try and nerf them (no more summon spells, no buffing outside of combat). Except they made burning hands far more powerful (multiply AoE by x2 or x3, average damage by more than x20, depending on your Intellect and Might) and drastically weakened fireball (reduce range to 10m, divide AoE by half).

 

 

Why is this an issue again? Because the number in the spell book says it's two levels higher and so should melt suns?

 

Because a higher level spell should be more powerful than a lower level one, because otherwise why is it harder to earn one than the other. What exactly do you think should be the difference between spells of different levels? You keep talking as if it should matter what the advantages or disadvantages of a higher level spell to a lower level one are. A higher level spell is supposed to be better. That's why you have to earn it by leveling up. As it is, Fireball is not only inferior to other spells of its own level, not only inferior to spells of lower levels, but it is probably going to be inferior to the 2/encounter arcane blast ability that every Wizard automatically gets in most situations.

 

 

 

Josh Sawyer designed it that because it's harder to land a Fan of Flames than a Fireball, thus it should do more damaged. he mentioned this during a tumbler or twitter response IIRC.

 

Ooooh, okay, so that's how balance works. When you're balancing a first level spell against a third level one, the third level one should be inferior to compensate for being potentially more difficult to cast without catching your party members in it.

 

 

 

I'm afraid most ppl didn't understand the joke Sir.

The thing is, this game is build so much around the principle of "make everything a valid choice" that it just breaks apart in almost every place. Equipment, spells, skills, stats, it all barely held together by the missguided hardline "make everything valid" approach.

Sad, but whatever.

 

 

 

Somehow you quoted yourself saying something that I didn't say.

[Voqar]

I feel this spell is balanced too.  It's tougher to use.  The level of the spell doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a stronger spell.  Fireball is way easier to use.

 

People saying they can consistently use fan at 100% effectiveness in all situations such that it's dramatically OP vs fireball are full of it or exploiting/cheesing or they're theorycrafting utopian combat scenarios that don't reflect what actually happens in the game.

 

As I said in another thread. I have more faith in obsidian - a proven dev with a track record of many great games - of some random armchair wanna be dev or modder.  If they think it needs tweaked, it'll get tweaked.  Obsidian knows better the full scope and ramifications of something like this in the big picture than somebody who's upset that fireball isn't a win button or that it's not exactly the way it exists in old D&D.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

That Fan of Flames is overpowered is crazy talk. That is almost the only spell the Wizard has that is worth a damn. Per day cast limitations necessitate potent spells--especially when combat is as frequent as in PoE. Otherwise you end up with the PoE Wizard--a bastardized, impotent, shadow of a proper class.

 

That Fireball is two spell levels higher than it is incredibly significant. The Wizard's highest level is the Wizard's most appropriate spell level to whatever equivalent leveled foes they are facing. That spells do not scale in PoE makes this all the more imperative. Improvements in aim are moot when your spell isn't worth the effort to use. Improved convenience is not an appropriate trade off, particularly when the Wizard class is the sum of their spells. Right now, PoE wizards are slightly more than the sum of FoF uses per day. That is is pitiful and disgraceful.

 

If they balance should shift--which it needs to, then Fan of Flames should be used on the basis of being a floor, where other spells are brought up to or beyond it.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

That Fan of Flames is overpowered is crazy talk. That is almost the only spell the Wizard has that is worth a damn. Per day cast limitations necessitate potent spells--especially when combat is as frequent as in PoE. Otherwise you end up with the PoE Wizard--a bastardized, impotent, shadow of a proper class.

 

That Fireball is two spell levels higher than it is incredibly significant. The Wizard's highest level is the Wizard's most appropriate spell level to whatever equivalent leveled foes they are facing. That spells do not scale in PoE makes this all the more imperative. Improvements in aim are moot when your spell isn't worth the effort to use. Improved convenience is not an appropriate trade off, particularly when the Wizard class is the sum of their spells. Right now, PoE wizards are slightly more than the sum of FoF uses per day. That is is pitiful and disgraceful.

 

If they balance should shift--which it needs to, then Fan of Flames should be used on the basis of being a floor, where other spells are brought up to or beyond it.

 

Wizards have Slicken too.

 

I don't think I've ever used any of their other spells much. I mean, at the very least I guess the higher level spells aren't competing with Fan of Flames or Sicken, so there's no harm in tossing them out here and there once you run out of arcane blasts.

 

[Katarack21]

That Fan of Flames is overpowered is crazy talk. That is almost the only spell the Wizard has that is worth a damn. Per day cast limitations necessitate potent spells--especially when combat is as frequent as in PoE. Otherwise you end up with the PoE Wizard--a bastardized, impotent, shadow of a proper class.

 

That Fireball is two spell levels higher than it is incredibly significant. The Wizard's highest level is the Wizard's most appropriate spell level to whatever equivalent leveled foes they are facing. That spells do not scale in PoE makes this all the more imperative. Improvements in aim are moot when your spell isn't worth the effort to use. Improved convenience is not an appropriate trade off, particularly when the Wizard class is the sum of their spells. Right now, PoE wizards are slightly more than the sum of FoF uses per day. That is is pitiful and disgraceful.

 

If they balance should shift--which it needs to, then Fan of Flames should be used on the basis of being a floor, where other spells are brought up to or beyond it.

FoF is not the be-all-end-all of spells for a wizard, no matter how much you want to claim it is. Aloth is a very useful and powerful caster in my party and FoF isn't even in his grimoire 90% of the time because it's more trouble than it's worth.

[dirigible]

It's tougher to use.  The level of the spell doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a stronger spell.

That's clearly the way it's meant to work, though.

Look at Wizard's Double (lvl1) vs Llengrath's Displaced Image (lvl3). It's a straight upgrade. Or Minoletta's Minor Missiles (lvl 1), compared to Minoletta's Bounding Missiles (lvl 3). The level 3 spell deals much more damage AND affects more targets.

Or look at the priest healing spells.

If higher level spells WEREN'T stronger then there'd be no reason to prevent a level 1 character from learning level 6 spells.

[Lephys]

I'm gonna agree with Nameless here.  A third level spell should have some advantage over a first level one.  I'm not saying that first level spells should be useless, but I shouldn't be coveting my first level spells lots WAY more than my third level ones which is what i'm doing now.

Tartantyco just pointed out how it does, though. If Fireball has a larger AoE radius, then that means you can do X damage to more targets than with fan of flames. So, if you hit 10 people with less damage, instead of 4 people with more damage, you're still able to deal more damage to the greater number of people. And more easily hit them all without having to get them to cluster up. AND without having to get so close to them, or take the time to reposition so that you can cast Fan of Flames, etc.

 

I'm not saying it's perfect, but there are advantages. You can't just look at one spell's base damage number, then another's, and go "3rd level should be higher!". Yeah, if they both function identically. If they were both just single-target fire spells, the 3rd level should most definitely deal higher damage.

 

Now, that being said, it's possible that the encounter design is lacking in the "allow you to take advantage of those advantages" department. But, that isn't the spell's fault. What you CAN do with the spell is not the same thing as what you end up being able to do.

 

But, that's kind of the whole point of this game being "tactical combat." How you use your spells should be just as important as which ones you use. If they were all just "see enemy - fire off spell straight at them", it would be rather bland.