Is there a way to heal health?

[PrimeJunta]

Think of it this way:

 

When dungeon-delving, you're limited by your "strategic health." This includes the health your characters actually have, plus the resources you have to heal them. In the IE games, this was potions + spell slots.

 

In P:E, those potions + spell slots have been replaced by the health + endurance mechanic. Health has the same function as the potions and Cure Light Wounds spells you're carrying.

 

Why? Because priests. Especially for less experienced players -- like me not too long ago -- the priest's primary function was a Cure Something Wounds battery. I was essentially wasting a character, doing nothing but carrying strategic healing. With that removed, you're pushed to using the priest's more varied spells intelligently to avoid taking damage in the first place -- which is how more experienced players (like me more recently) play the IE games.

 

The second health bar doesn't really change anything else, except of course it removes the option of cheesing fights by stockpiling and slugging potions. Either way you're limited by something.

 

And finally, if you do find yourself needing to rest much more often than dictated by fatigue, then I do contend that you're not playing the game all that well.

[SeekDWay]

I for one like the Camping Supplies cap, it makes longer dungeons much more fun and engaging. I hope the game has more of these later on.

 

On topic, I feel that the few talents you get for hp restoration are enough and given the way combat works in PoE wou'll rarely have to use them anyway.

[Epsilon Rose]

Because roleplay.

This seems to come up every time there's a thread about resting and I don't get how it's a valid response. If a game has a mechanic that requires you to intentionally limit yourself inorder to function, then it's not a well designed mechanic. If the only thing stopping me from having infinite resources (in the form of health, stamina, and per rest abilities) is my desire to not rest constantly and the tedium of going back to town, then those resources are not well implemented and might as well not be there. They might as well be per encounter resources and you could say "Roleplaing is what keeps you from just spamming them all every encounter." It would be a valid response then and it isn't one now.

[dirigible]

Jartan - if you have to rest more than once per map then I think maybe you need to, forgive me for saying this, get good.

 

Why are you taking so much damage? Is your tank not doing their job? Are you not cc'ing enemies when you should? Could you be setting up ambushes to minimize your wear?

[Epsilon Rose]

Jartan - if you have to rest more than once per map then I think maybe you need to, forgive me for saying this, get good.

 

Why are you taking so much damage? Is your tank not doing their job? Are you not cc'ing enemies when you should? Could you be setting up ambushes to minimize your wear?

I'd argue that ambush is a bit of an odd concept in this game, since you can't use a lot of your abilities until after the combat has already started and, at that piont, the enemies already know you're there and are in the process of reacting.

[Tartantyco]

It seems like people are completely misunderstanding my post. All of you seem to want to rest spam and say that it's ok. I want the opposite. Think about it. You go into a dungeon and you take 2-3 naps? That's rediculous. The monsters would find you and eat you. That's what camping supplies are supposed to stop.

 

1. Nobody's misunderstanding you.

 

2. Resting doesn't mean everybody goes to sleep.

 

3. Camping supplies are there to stop rest spamming. Which they do.

[dirigible]

 

Jartan - if you have to rest more than once per map then I think maybe you need to, forgive me for saying this, get good.

 

Why are you taking so much damage? Is your tank not doing their job? Are you not cc'ing enemies when you should? Could you be setting up ambushes to minimize your wear?

I'd argue that ambush is a bit of an odd concept in this game, since you can't use a lot of your abilities until after the combat has already started and, at that piont, the enemies already know you're there and are in the process of reacting.

 

You can use any damage-dealing ability from stealth.

Including equipping your entire party with Arquebuses and having them turn one or more enemies into a fine red mist, before the battle has even started.

Or setting up a kill zone by firing off a Web/Grease spell, and forcing the enemies to run through it while you shoot them with arrows.

Or pulling enemies in small groups by having someone scout ahead with a bow.

[Jartan]

3. Camping supplies are there to stop rest spamming. Which they do.

Yea they stop the morons who rest every fight. The game still forces us to rest too often though. Resting in a dungeon is wrong no matter what.

 

2. Resting doesn't mean everybody goes to sleep.

It lowers fatigue so that's exactly what it means. It shouldn't heal so much health either. The only way to heal health should be magic. Either spells or potions.

 

Jartan - if you have to rest more than once per map then I think maybe you need to, forgive me for saying this, get good.

I didn't say map I said dungeon. Dungeons can be several maps large. You should only rest once per every four combat maps or so. Ideally I don't want to ever rest even once in a dungeon. It should happen before and after.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Jartan

[Magrusaod]

I'm curious of your party makeup and stats. If you are dumping defensive stats and not wearing armor and shields, then yeah. You'll get chewed. If you have average Con and aren't dumping it, with high con/Resolve on your tanky front line it should protect you. Giving you a large endurance pool per encounter, and large health pool to run through multiple encounters per fight. The DR from heavy armor, and the deflection from a good shield will allow you to ignore a lot of the damage coming your way. Good tactical decision making will go a long way to limit damage per fight. 

All damage taken per fight goes towards overall health. So if you can limit that, you should be able to cruise through multiple fights each day. Sometimes you'll get your ass handed to you and take a ton of damage unexpectedly. However, I am thinking either you are being too aggressive and not using good tactics, or your party makeup just isn't setup to do what you want to do. 

In order to run a party that doesn't need rest often, you need to build for it. Paladin for Lay on Hands self healing tank combo with a Fighter to be main tank. Chanter to grant DR and healing in an aura with them. Cypher for DPS and CC behind them that has encounter based powers instead of daily slots. Rogue or Ranger DPS ranged striker to pew pew the enemy behind the tanks. Things like this. 

 

Besides all of the above, I think your preconceptions regarding what you expect due to past experiences is hurting you. What came before doesn't mean it will be the same again later. Let go of what was before, and just play the game to how its working within this game. Ignore the other previous games which used different systems.

[Tartantyco]

 

2. Resting doesn't mean everybody goes to sleep.

It lowers fatigue so that's exactly what it means. It shouldn't heal so much health either. The only way to heal health should be magic. Either spells or potions.

 

You don't understand. It doesn't mean that everybody sleeps at once. They can take turns keeping watch.

 

Healing through magic was explicitly removed and does not exist in the world's lore. You will never see it in-game, no matter how much you complain. Magic healing does not exist in Eora. End of discussion.

 

Sleeping in a dungeon is not an issue. That's just some nonsense in your head.

[Viperswhip]

Pulling is a time honoured tradition in RPGs, I stealth up my rogue, plink the earliest mob I can see, run back to the ambush area and voila. Sometimes the tank has to body pull, like for conversations or when mobs spawn based on your location, but generally, you are good to go if you pull.

 

Some of the bounties as an example, are made much, much easier this way, even if you just side up against a fallen tree or something, you are reducing the ability to surround your party immensely. You really shouldn't have to rest more than once per map. The health pools are plenty high.

[mazeltov]

If there were dungeons where the door locked behind you - where the only option was to clear it and emerge victorious out the other side - then limited resting supplies and strategic health recovery talents might become relevant. 

 

As it stands, I was able to clear half of the first major dungeon I found (R.'s Keep), turn around and walk back out, go back to the inn and rest, and come back to clear the remainder. I could have just rested at the innkeeper who was in the middle of the dungeon, but my party happened to need something from back at the inn. 

[Jartan]

Healing through magic was explicitly removed and does not exist in the world's lore. You will never see it in-game, no matter how much you complain. Magic healing does not exist in Eora. End of discussion.

How are they healing at all then? If there's no magical healing then something like adventuring can't even exist. The minute you got injured you'd have to stop and heal for months. For some classes getting injured would mean the end of their ability to ever fight well again.

[Tigranes]

 

For example, I cleared levels 3 and 4 of Od Nua last night with a level 6 party (Cipher, Eder, Durance, Sagani), and I rested three times

That's rest spamming though. I did it in two (which I also considered rest spamming) but I couldn't find a way to get it down to one. No matter what I have to rest twice in there. I expect to be able to do the ENTIRE dungeon resting only once. That's how little I would rest in IE.

 

that meant I was sometimes resting with quite a few per-rest spells still in the bank. But that's not a big deal

Its a HUGE DEAL. How can I enjoy strategically using my spells when I know I should just spam them out? I could maybe be cheesy with CC but that's really unfun too.

 

Raedric's Hold only required two rests, and I cleared two levels.

I would prefer doing the entire hold without resting considering it's size. Resting once near the end would be acceptable.

 

 

Ah, I see. If you want to do, say, the Eothas Temple in its entirety resting only once, then that's pretty tough. Usually my rule in IE was to rest once per level at most, after clearing it, and in POE once every 1.5 levels, since they tend to be smaller. 

 

But if you're aiming for that, then you're already resting far less than the game is designed for - and, really, that would only be possible if you lose very little health or zero health in every battle. I'm sure that's possible, but it might mean some strenuously evasive tactics and even cheesy ones like summons in doorways. 

 

I'm not sure how you'd change it, though. If you made healing easier then it would make the game too easy, and if you reduced the per-rest abilities mages and priests can access, it would make them even less competitive compared to other classes. (Frankly, I think most abilities should be per-rest...)

[Voss]

 

Like I said I know about those. Why would I waste incredibly valuable talent picks instead of just going to the inn constantly?

 

Because, honestly, talent picks stop being valuable, because there are so few worthwhile talents.  I've hit level 8, and I have nothing worthwhile to pick up for several of my character builds anymore.  Its going to have to be something indifferent or something quirky but amusing, because 90% of talents are utter trash, and the remainder only work on specific builds. 

 

field triage is actually occasionally useful if something gets lucky.  Crystal eater spiders are a good example.  That bloody crystal meteor strike and the chance at petrify even on a graze can really rip out a chunk of health, (petrify gets a x4 damage multiplier, and I've seen those bloody spiders do 120 damage in a single hit after a lucky graze).  Something like that can be a really brutal interrupt to the normal combat progression of no damage at all, with no reason to rest aside from brutal damage on one character.  Field triage helps that a great deal. 

[Jartan]

Usually my rule in IE was to rest once per level at most

My rule in IE was basically "never rest anywhere hostile EVER". I'd also never backtrack to rest if it didn't make sense roleplay wise. This made spell use really strategic and fun. I had to carry proper healing rations so I could actually use my priest spells too. Sometimes if things went bad I'd backtrack and rationalize backtracking and resting but that was rare.

 

Playing PoE feels like I'm cheating the entire time. It feels like the game is forcing me to cheat because of these health bars.

 

Because, honestly, talent picks stop being valuable, because there are so few worthwhile talents. I've hit level 8, and I have nothing worthwhile to pick up for several of my character builds anymore. Its going to have to be something indifferent or something quirky but amusing, because 90% of talents are utter trash, and the remainder only work on specific builds.

That surprises me. At a minimum every char needs weapon training + weapon style. Then you usually want a couple class talents. Even the general (+will/reflex/fort) defensive talents are nice too.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Jartan

[Mungri]

By using two dedicated wild orlan tanks, I can get through dungeons on POTD with just one or two rests, as the game allows with two camping supplies. If you are finding that you need to rest all the time, your tactics need improving.

[Jartan]

By using two dedicated wild orlan tanks, I can get through dungeons on POTD with just one or two rests, as the game allows with two camping supplies. If you are finding that you need to rest all the time, your tactics need improving.

Having a particular party is strategy not tactics. Please read my posts though I'm not resting a lot. I was just thinking about changing tank setups to mitigate this somewhat though. Focusing on evasion tanking seems paramount.

[Magrusaod]

 

Usually my rule in IE was to rest once per level at most

My rule in IE was basically "never rest anywhere hostile EVER". I'd also never backtrack to rest if it didn't make sense roleplay wise. This made spell use really strategic and fun. I had to carry proper healing rations so I could actually use my priest spells too. Sometimes if things went bad I'd backtrack and rationalize backtracking and resting but that was rare.

 

Playing PoE feels like I'm cheating the entire time. It feels like the game is forcing me to cheat because of these health bars.

 

Because, honestly, talent picks stop being valuable, because there are so few worthwhile talents. I've hit level 8, and I have nothing worthwhile to pick up for several of my character builds anymore. Its going to have to be something indifferent or something quirky but amusing, because 90% of talents are utter trash, and the remainder only work on specific builds.

That surprises me. At a minimum every char needs weapon training + weapon style. Then you usually want a couple class talents. Even the general (+will/reflex/fort) defensive talents are nice too.

 

 

You are quoting me as saying something I didn't say, you did. If you look back at what I *did* say, instead of quoting yourself. You'll see I say to just ignore what you did in previous games and just play this one. Expecting this game to work like other games is silly. It's a new RPG system, new game, it's not DnD, so doesn't play like BG or IWD or Planescape. 

[Ohioastro]

For what it is worth, difficulty is also very much a function of the level that you are for the encounter.  If you are under-leveled fights are tough; and you'll need to rest a lot.  Go at an appropriate level and it'll be less; go at a higher level and you'll need little.

 

This is tricky in this game because many potential encounters are actually tough if you run into them "at level".  This starts from the very beginning (bear cave; temple where Eder is; Hold; etc.)  So, as much as anything else, you want to time encounters properly.  Try to bulldoze everything the first time you see it and you'll be struggling all of the time.

[TurgoN-]

I think the camping supply "feature" is just annoying. Because you can go to the next inn buy the stuff and go back to the dungeon. So it's just a waste of time and not really a way to make it more "realistic" or "roleplayable" or whatever. I guess it's meant to be a middle ground of "not allowed to rest here" and "rest whenever you want". But as I said: it's basically just timewaisting.

Only thing is maybe, that it makes you calculate a bit: How many fights can i do (or how big is the dungeon) before i run out of supplies, because it's too annoying to leave the dungeon(dungeonpart) unfinished before going back.

[Jartan]

You are quoting me as saying something I didn't say, you did.

Actually Tigranes said that. I have no idea why it put your name there and it won't let me edit it now. As for your actual post I'm not going to just "accept things" without complaining. Resting in a hostile area is degenerative gameplay.

 

Usually my rule in IE was to rest once per level at most

Edited March 30, 2015 by Jartan

[Tigranes]

In a way, didn't IE games have the same problem? Sure, you could use health potions and healing spells, but you would run out of memorised healing spells, and potions were also finite (I suppose you could just buy and carry dozens of them in late game with the late game cash, though). So wouldn't you still have to either rest once in a while, or to make sure you very rarely get damaged? Is the problem you're running into that you can't heal health, or that it's too hard to find ways of avoiding damage?

 

I mean  you're presenting a weird catch-22. If you can heal or avoid damage too well, then that's too easy. But if you can't heal or avoid damage easily, then you have to rest. 

[Tartantyco]

Actually Tigranes said that. I have no idea why it put your name there and it won't let me edit it now. As for your actual post I'm not going to just "accept things" without complaining. Resting in a hostile area is degenerative gameplay.

 

lol.

 

You don't know what "degenerative gameplay" means.

[Mercbeast]

The inability to heal health doesn't undermine the resting mechanic at all. The resting mechanic is fundamentally about making a decision on when to camp or to retreat and re-supply. Health is part of this decision. The problem with health is, it is often that you are forced to re-supply before you are actually tapped out on per rest abilities. 

 

In a round about way, not being able to heal health accelerates the process of rest cheesing. I go back to town when my characters start dipping below 50% health. This means I usually have far more of my abilities remaining than I otherwise should.

 

Basically, I feel like having to rest/go buy supplies to heal breaks up the flow of dungeons even more. I'm playing on POTD and I have to go heal health more than I need to rest for abilities. In fact I often need to go rest with my wizard nearly full on abilities, because on POTD I need to carefully decide when I use them. Wizard abilities are your ace in the hole on really difficult fights. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Mercbeast