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Always running back to the inn... (Suggestion)

suggestion gameplay camping

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#1
Alweth

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I've really been enjoying Pillars of Eternity.

But one thing that's a little strange is the various ways the game insensitivizes you to run back to the inn/stronghold to rest. As far as I can tell, there's no downside, and it allows upgrades at the stronghold to be built. In addition, camping supplies cost a suprisingly high amount at the beginning, further insentivizing you to run back to town for the free rest instead of wasting 80 copper. Insentivizing players to waste real-life time to avoid in-game expenditures doesn't really make sense.

I would suggest that camping supplies just be made free and automatically refill whenever at town. I've only played on hard where you only get 2 supplies at a time, so I don't know how well this would work on other difficulties.



#2
Ink Blot

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I think you actually hit on the cost/benefit analysis in your post: it's a bit of a trade-off for the player to determine what's worth more to them. Do you want to spend the copper in-game for camping supplies or do you want to spend some of your real-world time to go back to an inn?

 

One way to de-incentivize the whole thing was mentioned in another thread: have consequences for leaving the dungeon/quest to run back and rest. Things such as respawning mobs or an objective could possibly fail since no one is actively opposing it when they're running back to town to rest.

 

But I personally think there's no simple answer and the more the devs try to discourage one type of behaviour, the more they'll just encourage something else they didn't foresee.


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#3
Lephys

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I do believe that paying for camping supplies wasn't the best way to do it. But, more just because the paying money doesn't really limit you in a way that you aren't already limited, that's at all beneficial to anything.

There are more "natural" ways to limit resting, etc. I dunno. I think that maybe the free room at the inn should only heal you back to Half Health or something. Or leave you with a debuff from crappy beds or something. Then, it's something, in case you're out of money/camping supplies AND Health, so you don't have to reload or start a new game.

That, and maybe you could rest whenever outside of towns, but you'd only heal so much without poultices/etc. Survival could even be tied in, so that, the higher the sum of your party's Survival skill ratings, the more herbs and such they'd be able to track down to make basic poultices from when you rested. It would just happen automatically when you rested. That, and, maybe the amount of remaining enemies in the map area could shorten the amount of time you actually get to rest before you must wake and move or be ambushed. Again, automatic. No annoying "Oh no, we hafta fight infinitely respawning enemies who just wandered into us!" while resting, and no "You just can't rest 'cause there are enemies around" (I mean, except for if you try to rest RIGHT NEXT to some active enemies). But, that way, you're gently encouraged to take on multiple groups of enemies before resting, rather than just encouraged to rest every 10 seconds and always be full health (which defeats the purpose of the limited spells/abilities system and the style of tactical/strategic combat design).

So, yeah, I think "Hey, the only way to always rest back up to completely full Health is back at town" would be a good thing to start, instead of "the only way to rest to full is to buy these things that you find quite frequently and that you can buy pretty easily, but they still cost money which is kind of annoying, especially early on." *shrug*
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#4
Hogfather

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Running back to town a lot to rest -- especially into the midgame with a few levels under your belt -- is a strong signal that something is wrong. Its supposed to be tedious, and the idea is that you work to avoid it.

 

Skipped too many side quests, party composition / equipment / talents, chosen strategy. Something needs attention.


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#5
Alweth

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Running back to town a lot to rest -- especially into the midgame with a few levels under your belt -- is a strong signal that something is wrong. Its supposed to be tedious, and the idea is that you work to avoid it.

 

Skipped too many side quests, party composition / equipment / talents, chosen strategy. Something needs attention.

Actually, I don't go back to the inn to rest that much. The title was hyperbole to convey the urge I feel to run back to the inn to save some coppers, get a buff, or speed along the stronghold. Overall Pillars of Eternity is excellent, but giving players in-game incentive to waste real time is just bad game design.


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#6
Tigranes

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Wasting 5 minutes going back and forth to save 150 copper is basically running a deficit, because in that 5 minutes you could easily earn 150 copper exploring, looting, killing. It's like taking an unpaid leave from your workplace to go to the store and get that 50% sale on a loaf of bread. There is no incentive to waste time this way.


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#7
Alweth

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Wasting 5 minutes going back and forth to save 150 copper is basically running a deficit, because in that 5 minutes you could easily earn 150 copper exploring, looting, killing. It's like taking an unpaid leave from your workplace to go to the store and get that 50% sale on a loaf of bread. There is no incentive to waste time this way.


That is, of course, more true later in the game. But you're forgetting that (at least as far in the game as I've played) there is no renewable source of income, so it's not a completely fair comparison. It would suck to miss buying that great late-game item for your character by 86 copper because you camped one too many times. You're also forgetting the other incentives the game provides for running to town.
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#8
Prime-Mover

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Running back to town a lot to rest -- especially into the midgame with a few levels under your belt -- is a strong signal that something is wrong. Its supposed to be tedious, and the idea is that you work to avoid it.

 

Skipped too many side quests, party composition / equipment / talents, chosen strategy. Something needs attention.

Actually, I don't go back to the inn to rest that much. The title was hyperbole to convey the urge I feel to run back to the inn to save some coppers, get a buff, or speed along the stronghold. Overall Pillars of Eternity is excellent, but giving players in-game incentive to waste real time is just bad game design.

 

 

So far, about 14 hours in, I still don't see any big urge to run back to safety. Part of this presumably comes down to the difficulty setting. So if someone e.g. has spent all their camping supplies after four battles, this is perhaps more a hint that they need to lower the difficulty setting, rather than the game is inherently flawed. Still, Obsidian perhaps ought to give players a better hint that the difficult setting is too high, say be penalising backtracking somewhat.



#9
Mungri

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I havnt upgraded my keep enough yet, but if the resting bonuses there are free then that's quite an incentive to go back there to rest.

#10
Xavori

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I havnt upgraded my keep enough yet, but if the resting bonuses there are free then that's quite an incentive to go back there to rest.

TNSTAAFL

 

You'll spend more on the upgrades for your beddie bye room that you'd spend on just sleeping at an inn.  On the other hand, once you have all the buildings, you can always pick which bonus you think will be most beneficial for your next little bit.

 

As for the OP's point....

 

I'm more irritated with the lack of camping supply slots than I am the cost.  Money gets easy.  The lack of camping supplies does not.  And since pretty much all the good skills are tied to per-rest, you really have to camp/sleep a lot (at least if you're playing on a real difficulty level and aren't cheesing the game to get the 10-rest-only achievy)


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#11
Alweth

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I'm not talking about difficulty here, guys. I'm talking about incentives.



#12
Soth007

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I'm enjoying the game so far, but this is one of the more unpleasant design decisions they made. Making me run back to an inn to resupply when I'm in the middle of a dungeon... it doesnt add challenge, it is just a time waster and not fun. 

 

A better system would have been adding a chance to be interrupted and attacked during rest.



#13
Tigranes

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Wasting 5 minutes going back and forth to save 150 copper is basically running a deficit, because in that 5 minutes you could easily earn 150 copper exploring, looting, killing. It's like taking an unpaid leave from your workplace to go to the store and get that 50% sale on a loaf of bread. There is no incentive to waste time this way.


That is, of course, more true later in the game. But you're forgetting that (at least as far in the game as I've played) there is no renewable source of income, so it's not a completely fair comparison. It would suck to miss buying that great late-game item for your character by 86 copper because you camped one too many times. You're also forgetting the other incentives the game provides for running to town.

 

 

Yeah. That's not going to happen, not unless you're buying 300 camping supplies. By the way, the stronghold is a renewable source of income to infinity in the form of taxes. Given that you get several hundred copper, It simply isn't a valid calculation. 

 

Of course there are other incentives for visiting town/stronghold. You're meant to have gameplay - it would suck if there were no reasons to visit the stronghold. The point is that there isn't a strong incentive to keep running back to town in the middle of a dungeon just to sleep at an inn and save your 75 copper. 

 

I've just gone through 4 levels of Od Nua without running back to town. That's not because I'm awesome (people will play on different difficulties with different sized and composed parties). I just find that when I try to go as many battles as possible without resting it adds to the tension, it adds to the tactical diversity (if Eder is on 2 health I can't frontline him like I always do), and it adds to the fun. 

 

I'm sure somebody will make a rest-anywhere mod, of course, so that if you want to rest after every battle, or whatever other combination, you can.



#14
Katarack21

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I'm enjoying the game so far, but this is one of the more unpleasant design decisions they made. Making me run back to an inn to resupply when I'm in the middle of a dungeon... it doesnt add challenge, it is just a time waster and not fun. 

 

A better system would have been adding a chance to be interrupted and attacked during rest.

BG had that...so people just combined rest spam with save skimming. I think the system they have is pretty much good as is. I dislike the limited resting to begin with; making the inns less effective or making me only get half healed while camping or any of that wouldn't make the game any more fun for me. It would just make it more frustrating. I already had one instance where I ended up in a dungeon with no camping supplies and the prospect of a long trek back up. It felt good to find some camping supplies in a chest right after, but still--that situation had the potential to be scream-at-the-monitor terrible.



#15
Alweth

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Wasting 5 minutes going back and forth to save 150 copper is basically running a deficit, because in that 5 minutes you could easily earn 150 copper exploring, looting, killing. It's like taking an unpaid leave from your workplace to go to the store and get that 50% sale on a loaf of bread. There is no incentive to waste time this way.


That is, of course, more true later in the game. But you're forgetting that (at least as far in the game as I've played) there is no renewable source of income, so it's not a completely fair comparison. It would suck to miss buying that great late-game item for your character by 86 copper because you camped one too many times. You're also forgetting the other incentives the game provides for running to town.

 

 

Yeah. That's not going to happen, not unless you're buying 300 camping supplies. By the way, the stronghold is a renewable source of income to infinity in the form of taxes. Given that you get several hundred copper, It simply isn't a valid calculation. 

 

Of course there are other incentives for visiting town/stronghold. You're meant to have gameplay - it would suck if there were no reasons to visit the stronghold. The point is that there isn't a strong incentive to keep running back to town in the middle of a dungeon just to sleep at an inn and save your 75 copper. 

 

I've just gone through 4 levels of Od Nua without running back to town. That's not because I'm awesome (people will play on different difficulties with different sized and composed parties). I just find that when I try to go as many battles as possible without resting it adds to the tension, it adds to the tactical diversity (if Eder is on 2 health I can't frontline him like I always do), and it adds to the fun. 

 

I'm sure somebody will make a rest-anywhere mod, of course, so that if you want to rest after every battle, or whatever other combination, you can.

 

 
The player doesn't know there's an infinite supply of money coming from the Stronghold some time in the future, so it doesn't change the incentives (until you get there). Again, the player doesn't know what the total cost of everything they'll want to buy in the game is versus the total amount of money they'll earn, so it doesn't change the incentives (until they've played through the game at least once).



#16
Tigranes

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Sorry, but if you're sitting there at the beginning of the game thinking, "oh no, I don't know how the economy will turn out in this 40, 60, 80 hour game - but damn, I really better start saving pennies right now, even though 2 hours into the game I'm already earning thousands of coppers! There's a really strong incentive for me to waste 5 minutes every time I want to rest going back to town and saving 75 copper!" then you're doing some really, really inefficient calculation. It really isn't incentive, it's you making some really weird reasoning. 

 

Especially since, if you've ever played other CRPGs, then you know that such small sums of money are not a problem. 

 

Especially since, if we're talking about incentives, surely the inconvenience of walking back to town for every rest is a bigger incentive to just use the camping supplies, since this is a video game where you want to have fun, not an excel sheet where you want to save every last bit of coin. 

 

*shrug* Nope, I don't see it. There could be other arguments made against camping supplies, but it's very unlikely that the system will 'incentivise' people to run back to town when they have really cheap camping supplies in their inventory. 


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#17
at0mic

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sure makes the rare treat of finding camplng supplies a rush like epic loot! lol



#18
Andrew_C

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Of course if only that pocket dimension we carry about could somehow hold firewood, this wouldn't be an issue. By the way, is there a quest line later in the game where you take down the cartel responsible for the extortionate price of firewood?


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#19
Jimmious

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Wow people are actually leaving dungeon, running back to an inn to sleep and going back there? I wouldn't do that even if supplies costed 200 each!!! Haha
Capitalism has destroyed us :p



#20
Ink Blot

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Of course if only that pocket dimension we carry about could somehow hold firewood, this wouldn't be an issue. By the way, is there a quest line later in the game where you take down the cartel responsible for the extortionate price of firewood?

LOL - it is odd that your stash can hold 2000 sets of armor but for some reason you can't stuff any camping supplies in there.







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