Best class for 'diplomat' character

[RyuMaster]

Hi! In my cRPGs, I like to create main character, whom is focused on talking out of all kind of situations. If I am correct, I need to max-out 2 parameters here for the main char: perception and resolve.

 

Which class could benefit the most from those 2 params being maxed out?

[PrimeJunta]

Actually I think the attributes are supposed to be used relatively evenly in conversations and scripted interactions, so it may not work quite like that.

 

If you want to max out those two attributes, I'd go with a front-liner: paladin, fighter, or barbarian. Resolve will help them not get interrupted by attacks, and perception will help them interrupt enemies. Also both contribute to deflection which is useful for them.

[Shdy314]

Tanks so Paladins and Fighters. Im sure Int will be used a lot too.

 

PrimeJunta we'd all like to think that but it's just not possible. There are way more times mental attributes will contribute to dialogue over Dex, Str and Con but Im sure Dex and Str will have their moments.

[PrimeJunta]

Perhaps. I don't know. The BB is too small to tell for sure. We'll see.

[MasterPrudent]

If I recall correctly Josh Sawyer did write that they had a tool that let them keep track of how many responses used each attribute and skill and that they used it to keep them more or less equally useful in conversation. As Prime Junta says we'll know for sure soon enough!

 

Personally I think that a barbarian with perception and resolve maxed isn't a great build. Basically you're making up for the class' weakness (low deflection) and I think you're better off emphasising its strengths. I'd say you'd get better results going for a tanky fighter or paladin.

Edited March 20, 2015 by MasterPrudent

[White Phoenix]

Paladin of Shieldbearers of St. Elcga (diplomacy is one of the celebrated behaviour). I don't remember if one of priest deity has diplomacy required. In fact you can be diplomatic with any classes. It is one kind of reputation, not atrribute.

 

If you want to create a character, who will be lore wise and talking much (as mine) you need to max Intellect (because it often comes with lore skill --> you need it max too), next Perception (it helps to find new information like more details on some quests, someone's opinion or lying to you). Resolve is good complement of 'diplomatic' character, it makes possible intimidating characters, showing some leadership abilities and charisma.

 

As you can see the best class for diplomatic and lore wise character is some kind of caster (priest, druid, wizard, chanter or cipher). If you want to fight melee I recommend chanter or cipher. Paladin is great too, but he/she don't need high Intelect, because paladin's abilities stay focused on single ally/enemy (except for auras).

Edited March 20, 2015 by White Phoenix

[PrimeJunta]

If I recall correctly Josh Sawyer did write that they had a tool that let them keep track of how many responses used each attribute and skill and that they used it to keep them more or less equally useful in conversation. As Prime Junta says we'll know for sure soon enough!

 

Personally I think that a barbarian with perception and resolve maxed isn't a great build. Basically you're making up for the class' weakness (low deflection) and I think you're better off emphasising its strengths. I'd say you'd get better results going for a tanky fighter or paladin.

 

Mm, maybe, for Perception at least. OTOH Concentration is pretty important for a barb since Carnage requires him to be in the thick of things, and getting interrupted by attacks will kind of ruin his day. But yeah you're probably right, a fighter or pally would likely be better overall.

 

I dig this about P:E character mechanics though -- you really can find uses for all the ability scores for most if not all classes. I don't think any class would get no benefit at all from high PER and RES. Even back-row characters, although they don't arguably profit as much.

[TheisEjsing]

Josh has stated several times, that just because you have a special reponse available, it doesn't mean that it's the best response. I observed in the beta that a high perception response especially, often leads to people being angry at you. See the wiki for more information. And since there is a "diplomatic personality type, why not just go with that?

[Elerond]

Diplomatic character will need most likely high Perception, Resolve and Intellect, which are stats that best suited for characters that focus on being supporting tank, in my opinion best classes suited to this role are Paladin, Chanter, Fighter, Priest and Wizard.

[TheisEjsing]

I can't agree Elerond. 
http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Resolve

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Intellect
http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Perception

 

If you watch those attributes responses in the BB, most of them are anything, but diplomatic. Intellect might be more diplomatic than the other ones, but in general those attributes are based about forcing your agenda through manipulation or coercion, which isn't what I think OP meant by diplomacy. 
Edit: I might be wrong on what he wants to do. Talking your way out of any situation isn't the same as diplomacy. A bully can likely achieve the same results.

Edited March 20, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[Sonntam]

I can't agree Elerond. 

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Resolve

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Intellect

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Perception

 

If you watch those attributes responses in the BB, most of them are anything, but diplomatic. Intellect might be more diplomatic than the other ones, but in general those attributes are based about forcing your agenda through manipulation or coercion, which isn't what I think OP meant by diplomacy. 

Edit: I might be wrong on what he wants to do. Talking your way out of any situation isn't the same as diplomacy. A bully can likely achieve the same results.

 

What alternative do you propose?

 

What OP wants is basically always choosing [Diplomatic] dialogue options. You don't need any special class for that.

 

If you also want to be charismatic, however, then Resolve may help. If you want to convince people through arguments, then you need arguments (diplomats do need some brain, after all). If you want to recognize someone lying to you, Perception may help (a diplomatic person that believes anything one tells them is just a tool). 

 

You can choose to manipulate people with all of those stats, but also you may choose not to. Also, OP's focus seems to be on talking their way out of any situation, not being an upstanding citizen that will be as nice and kind as possible.

[TheisEjsing]

I didn't claim I have the answer, I merely pointed out, that those attributes aren't really about finding diplomatic solutions to problems, based on the BB. 

[PBJam]

I would guess characters with intellect and lore

[Luckmann]

Josh has stated several times, that just because you have a special reponse available, it doesn't mean that it's the best response. I observed in the beta that a high perception response especially, often leads to people being angry at you. See the wiki for more information. And since there is a "diplomatic personality type, why not just go with that?

This is one of the reasons I'm going to use the option to not show qualifiers (or missing qualifiers, for that matter). Getting extra options without them being explicitly better or worse, based on your attributes, is an amazing (and basic, so it's odd that it's so forgotten) concept.

 

The only thing I think is worth showing is the way it's going to modify your reputation or personality, because sometimes it's so damn hard to know the tone of something written. Any modern Bioware RPG shows this pretty well. I think it was in Dragon Age: Origins or something where I ended up actually killing someone because I misunderstood the tone of the response choice. Ooops.

 

At least here I'll get a warning that it might make me more Aggressive, and anything marked as Deceptive will obviously be a lie (or a half-truth), and so on.

 

But returning to the topic, with Perception and Resolve, I would say a Fighter, maybe, just maybe, a Paladin. I would question the choice of Perception/Resolve, however, and instead consider Intellect/Perception, for a Diplomatic character, but at the end of the day it's impossible to tell - at present - which would be the best when prioritizing diplomancy.

 

Edit: And if I were going Intellect/Perception, I'd probably go with a Cipher.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Luckmann

[Elerond]

I didn't claim I have the answer, I merely pointed out, that those attributes aren't really about finding diplomatic solutions to problems, based on the BB. 

 

All dialog choices that they open don't lead diplomatic or more accurately non-violent options, but what we have seen beta they open most new dialog options that you may or may not use when you perform your diplomatic ambitions, but main reasons why I think that they are most important for diplomatic character are that they open you new dialog options with other characters in game that may give you vital information about that person who you try deal with instead of giving you straight forward win button with that person and they are from roleplaying stand-point attributes that I associate with diplomatic character.

[Striped_Wolf]

 

If you want to max out those two attributes, I'd go with a front-liner: paladin, fighter, or barbarian. Resolve will help them not get interrupted by attacks, and perception will help them interrupt enemies. Also both contribute to deflection which is useful for them.

Not to mention the undisputable persuasive quality of a battleaxe.

[Sensuki]

I would wager that Perception, Intellect and Resolve are used more in dialogue and Might, Dexterity and Constitution are used more in Scripted Interactions.

[TheisEjsing]

I agree with you Elerond. From a roleplaying perspective, those attributes should be the logical choice for a diplomatic character. And I should add, that gathering information to use/exploit in negotiations is a classic diplomatic tool. Coercion and direct manipulation seems as it's the case in the BB is swaying more towards bullying than diplomacy. But we don't know the whole game, so it might be outliers. 
 

@Luckmann I know how you feel. ^_^ it's so easy to misinterpretate dialog. I'm gonna turn help off aswell. I hate when I choose a response and it's the opposite of what I wanted to do/say.  I do think the narration helps, since you hear about their emotional state before you read what they say in the BB and therefore gets a clearer contextual grasp.

Edited March 20, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[Eurhetemec]

Josh has stated several times, that just because you have a special reponse available, it doesn't mean that it's the best response. I observed in the beta that a high perception response especially, often leads to people being angry at you. See the wiki for more information. And since there is a "diplomatic personality type, why not just go with that?

 

I wasn't aware of that, and it's really good to hear it. I remember it was that way in Fallout 1/2, but as dialogue has evolved since then, virtually all "extra" options have been "better" ones in most CRPGs, and whilst some should be, not all should be.

 

High perception = annoying is perfect for the "Sherlock Holmes"-type character - I mean, just because you noticed something odd about someone, doesn't mean it's smart or kind to bring it up to them!

 

 

The only thing I think is worth showing is the way it's going to modify your reputation or personality, because sometimes it's so damn hard to know the tone of something written. Any modern Bioware RPG shows this pretty well. I think it was in Dragon Age: Origins or something where I ended up actually killing someone because I misunderstood the tone of the response choice. Ooops.

 

I replayed DA:O recently, and I feel like that and Mass Effect 1 are by far the worst for this (earlier Bioware games tend to have simple, obvious options), because even some quite lengthy stuff in DA:O turns out of mean something else (proving that more words does not always mean "more clear"!).

 

ME2/3 are much better, clearly learned from ME1, and DA2 and DA:I are better too, thanks to the "tone" icons (avoided a few problems that way, where the words looked innocent but the tone icon showed they weren't).

 

Be interesting to see how well Eternity handles it.

[Shdy314]

Of course DE:HR handled it best of all using the option I and others suggested on the Bioware forum as far back as ME1.

[Eurhetemec]

Of course DE:HR handled it best of all using the option I and others suggested on the Bioware forum as far back as ME1.

 

I dunno about "best of all", because different approaches have value, but it was certainly both very effectively dramatically, and very involving, as well as seeming very naturalistic. Better I think for a fully-voiced game than a mostly-text one like this, though. It also works better when the conflict/focus of the conversation is very well-defined, dramatically, which works better with more linear games (it'd be perfect for the ME series, because the conflicts there tend to be very clear).

[Odd Hermit]

Paladin - Good reasons to have high Perception, Int, and Resolve. And I believe they get some combat benefits(to Faith and Conviction) from choosing dialogue that aligns with their Order's ideals or whatever, if that's still a thing. I haven't tested it with the limited beta options.

[Luckmann]

Paladin - Good reasons to have high Perception, Int, and Resolve. And I believe they get some combat benefits(to Faith and Conviction) from choosing dialogue that aligns with their Order's ideals or whatever, if that's still a thing. I haven't tested it with the limited beta options.

It's still supposed to be a thing, yeah.

 

It should be noted that a Paladin built like that is going to exclusively be a tank, and would probably do best as a Shieldbearer (the order, but yeah, he should also have a shield, but that's beside what I wanted to say).

 

On a slightly related note, I must say that I'm a bit sad to hear that apparently Bleak Walkers have the celebrated behaviour of Aggressive/Cruel, while have condemned behaviour Diplomatic/Benevolent. I would've expected that they'd have Rational/Cruel for celebrated behaviour and Passionate/Benevolent (or Passionate/Diplomatic) as condemned behaviour, based on all the descriptions of them. I guess they reduced Bleak Walkers to blackguards after all.

 

Too bad, they sounded interesting at first.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Luckmann

[Kordanor]

While in this thread there is a lot of talk regarding attributes, what about skills?

 

I mean Stealth and Athletics seem to have no use in dialogues. I guess they are used in these scripted adventure parts insted. But in these cases you can chose the character, so you can put that on a different character.

 

The remaining skills are Lore, Mechanics and Survival. Now it's probably best to increase Mechanics on the same character who is doing stealth, so you don't need to scout around with 2 characters.

This leaves Lore and maybe Survival for good skills for the main character to be used in dialogues.

 

So I guess for diplomatic reasons it's best to take a int based character (that's about all classes dependent on build) and one with lore bonus. (Fighters and Druids have a bonus in Lore AND Survival)

[Leferd]

*edit.

 

Double post.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Leferd